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Atheists are actually Christians....

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posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



No, it's not that there are parts that I can understand, and parts that you can understand, and they are different parts, but that there are aspects of God that we, as substantially different beings, simply cannot understand.


Exactly. Which means that if you then insist upon building your life on something you don't understand in its entirety, you aren't very smart. Either that, or you just don't care about what happens to your life. I'm not afraid to implicate the intelligence of those who adhere to such a problem-solving tactic, as it's likely to raise more problems than it solves.


One example would be God's eternal nature -- many people say things like "how can God have no beginning? How can he always have existed?" because everything that we know, from ourselves to the universe to abstract things like ideas, all have discrete beginnings and, we assume, will have eventual endings. But God doesn't, he just is. Always was, always will be. God has no relationship to the concept of time -- because he is eternal and external to this reality, everything, past, present and future, exists in the moment for God.


You are coming dangerously close to speaking as though you understand the first thing about that sort of entity. Let me refer you back to one of my other posts:

I'm not buying that crap, so stop selling it to me.

You are human. You are finite, fragile, and ignorant. If a god were to plunk itself down in front of you wearing a thong, you wouldn't recognize it because THERE ARE NO OFFICIAL PARAMETERS FOR WHAT CONSTITUTES A GOD. Only romanticisms and childish whimsies that cater to the immaturity of the collective human psyche.

Stop pretending to have the first inkling of an idea what a god is all about. You aren't fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled.
edit on 25-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 11:00 AM
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FlyersFan

AfterInfinity
Frankly, I see a lot of discrepancies between Jesus and God in the Bible.

It's hard to find God in the Old Testament. A lot of it is myth and folklore and people claiming to have a directive from God ... but in reality they are mass murdering and raping and using God as an excuse to do so. The New Testament is a separate book for good reason. It is capable of standing on it's own very well.

Study Buddhism and find out.

Have you seen a comparison of Jesus teachings and Buddahs? Very similar. Christianity kind of looks like a cross between Buddhism and Judaism.



From my point of view:

Jesus and Buddha, Sikhism, Hinduism teach non-duality (All is One single whole and you should act like it is part of you) when you look at the message from afar. Pure and simple symbiosis with everything around you. Easy message, hard to implement in practice on this level.
.

That all is One single whole connected to everything must be because otherwise Jehovah (the existing ONE) would not be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient.
edit on 25-10-2013 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by LittleByLittle
 


As far as religion goes, I get the distinct impression that any religion born within the last 500,000 years is not new, only recycled and refurbished to reflect the change in culture and awareness. Interestingly, this suggests that religion has much more to do with the truth of the people who practice it, and much less to do with the truth of the universe itself.
edit on 25-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 12:56 PM
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AfterInfinity
Stop pretending to have the first inkling of an idea what a god is all about. You aren't fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled.

Well, nice to see that you're back to your old cranky, arrogant self who thinks that he knows everything.

Yes, there are things that we can know about God, and they are rooted in what has been revealed to us through scripture, experience, and reasoned through both cataphatic (positive) and apophatic (negative) theology.

The fact that you are willfully ignorant in matters such as philosophy and theology does not mean that everyone is.



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



Well, nice to see that you're back to your old cranky, arrogant self who thinks that he knows everything.


"who thinks that he knows everything." Huh. Well, I don't think that, but I do find it entertaining how often that sentence coincides with someone being unwillingly corrected.


Yes, there are things that we can know about God, and they are rooted in what has been revealed to us through scripture, experience, and reasoned through both cataphatic (positive) and apophatic (negative) theology.


Oh, you mean the ABSOLUTE TRUTH that has spawned over 1,000 variations? Sounds pretty absolute to me.


The fact that you are willfully ignorant in matters such as philosophy and theology does not mean that everyone is.


Sticks and stones, my friend, sticks and stones...incidentally, I find it quite interesting that you would rather attack my integrity and knowledge base than actually address a single point I have raised in this thread. Quite interesting indeed.



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 03:19 PM
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AfterInfinity
Sticks and stones, my friend, sticks and stones...incidentally, I find it quite interesting that you would rather attack my integrity and knowledge base than actually address a single point I have raised in this thread. Quite interesting indeed.

What points?

You claimed that anyone who said that they had full knowledge of God was full of it, and I agreed -- citing Augustine's Doctrine of Incomprehensibility. You then attempted to extend that doctrine to say that neither I, nor anyone, could know anything about God, which is obviously invalid.

No, a deist couldn't know anything about their brand of god, but I am not a deist, I am a believer in a religion that says that God has revealed some aspects of himself to us, and through that revelation, and through positive and negative theology, we have some knowledge of God, because he is comprehensible, in part.



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 03:20 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



You claimed that anyone who said that they had full knowledge of God was full of it, and I agreed -- citing Augustine's Doctrine of Incomprehensibility.


Mhm.


You then attempted to extend that doctrine to say that neither I, nor anyone, could know anything about God, which is obviously invalid.


One thousandth of infinity is still infinity. This means that no matter how much you claim to know, it's still too much for a human being.


No, a deist couldn't know anything about their brand of god, but I am not a deist, I am a believer in a religion that says that God has revealed some aspects of himself to us, and through that revelation, and through positive and negative theology, we have some knowledge of God, because he is comprehensible, in part.


Because knowing 0.0000001% of something is clearly enough to stake your life on.

edit on 25-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 03:30 PM
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Hmm, this 'God' is unfathomable and unknowable to us mere mortals so he sent us a vague and easily misinterpreted series of books so we could then learn all it/he/she thought we needed to know about it/him/her?

Hasn't worked out very well, you'd expect more from someone/thing claiming to be omniscient...



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by Prezbo369
 


One excellent point among many to be made. Unfortunately, not one of them is any match for the dreaded cognitive dissonance.



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 04:17 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


Because in that tiny bit, there's still hope.

As long as there is a glimmer of hope, people still look for a future. That's the one thing you miss out on. The glimmer of hope for some people. That's all some people have in this life, is a glimmer of hope.

You don't have to fully understand it, but as long as there is a glimmer of hope, that's all some people need to survive.

Yes, I would stake my life on that tiny bit, because in that tiny bit is still hope. I think it is really cruel to remove hope from people, not matter how small it is.

edit on 10/25/2013 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



Because in that tiny bit, there's still hope.


You say that like this universe, by itself, holds no hope at all. Apparently, this forum is full of depressed people convinced that the world is a ticking time bomb and nothing good can ever come of anything no matter what unless God.

Wow, that's just...wow. That's a sickening mentality. Is that what we've done? We've even killed our belief in ourselves? Holy crow, Batman. I don't know what to say to that.


As long as there is a glimmer of hope, people still look for a future. That's the one thing you miss out on. The glimmer of hope for some people. That's all some people have in this life, is a glimmer of hope.


I am of the firm belief that if all you want is hope, then God is absolutely overkill. Like using a nuke to kill a cockroach. And just like using a nuke to kill a cockroach, it still doesn't solve the problem permanently.


Yes, I would stake my life on that tiny bit, because in that tiny bit is still hope. I think it is really cruel to remove hope from people, not matter how small it is.


Whatever happened to you to convince you that this universe, in and of itself, is utterly devoid of hope...I'm sorry. I'm sorry it did that to you. But I also want you to know that you don't need a god to have hope. You just have to believe in yourself and your friends and family. Life isn't fair, but there's plenty of opportunities to tip the scales, whether it be in your favor or someone else's. You can be that hope for yourself. Or for someone else. That's your choice, and it can be done. It can, I promise you. And once you learn how...it'll be a whole new world for you. You will have the power to turn on the light wherever you go. You've always had it. And no one can take that power from you. It is yours. It is mine. It is theirs. All of ours. We were born with it. We were all born with the power to light up someone's day, whenever we choose to.

All it takes is finding out how to use it.




edit on 25-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 05:11 PM
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AfterInfinity
One thousandth of infinity is still infinity. This means that no matter how much you claim to know, it's still too much for a human being.

What? That doesn't make any sense.

God is infinite in that he is beyond limits, because he is outside of space and time. It doesn't mean that he has an infinite number of characteristics. If God is good, and you know that God is good, then you know something about God -- where does infinity come into it?



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 05:14 PM
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Prezbo369
Hmm, this 'God' is unfathomable and unknowable to us mere mortals so he sent us a vague and easily misinterpreted series of books so we could then learn all it/he/she thought we needed to know about it/him/her?

Hasn't worked out very well, you'd expect more from someone/thing claiming to be omniscient...

I don't know, Christianity started with 12 guys, has outlasted every known political entity, has outlived everyone who ever tried to control or curtail it and currently claims 2.1 billion followers.

Sounds like it worked out fine.

You ever come up with that kind of success, let us know, m-kay?



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 07:03 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



If God is good, and you know that God is good, then you know something about God -- where does infinity come into it?


I don't know that he's good. I don't even know that he exists. If he does, its in a form that can't touch this reality without breaking it.



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 07:47 PM
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AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen
 



If God is good, and you know that God is good, then you know something about God -- where does infinity come into it?


I don't know that he's good. I don't even know that he exists. If he does, its in a form that can't touch this reality without breaking it.

We're not talking about what you personally do or do not know, we're talking about whether, if God is real, we can know anything about him. From the above example, we clearly can.



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


There is no hope in natural universe. You cannot prove to me that you are connected to the universe. You can prove to me that your body will disintegrate into dust, if you aren't cremated. You can prove to me that once you die, your body doesn't feel a thing any more.

But what you cannot prove is that you are connected to the universe. All of this "connectedness" theology, is designed solely as a feel-good for you. What it does not address is there here and now, telling people they become part of the natural universe that at present cares nothing for them. Tell me, why must you die to become connected?

The present, natural universe is geared toward one thing, survival of the fittest. And what hope is there in that? Making people feel that in order to connect they have to die? And that they aren't the fittest, so they have to die? To become connected to a cold, natural universe that didn't care for them in the first place?

A cold, hard universe that created them as nothing more than a product of evolution? It's easy to say this to people like you and I, we have the ability to know what lies on the other side for us. You get connected back to the stars and planets, I go to fellowship with God that created me.

But you don't know the millions of millions of millions of people this very moment struggling mentally, struggling financially, struggling against oppression, persecution, subjugation, abuse, terror. You tell those people the only hope they can have it is to be connected to be a universe that may or may not tell them, that they have to go through this crap life one more time.

I tell them God loves them and wants them to come to Him and have fellowship with Him, that at the end of this life, they can be taken to a world where they don't have to live like a refugee anymore.

But you tell me that this world isn't that bad, that life can't that be all that horrible. Here's the truth, it's bad out there. And do you really think those children with swollen bellies, sweltering in the hot African sun, while bad men take the food sent to them by us, that you tell them they are going to be connected to the universe again? If you can't appeal to the human emotion, then you aren't connected really as you say, because you aren't connected to the suffering that is in this world.

If you say you are connected, then why aren't you connected to the suffering in this world? See, that's why I know your way is not right, that everything you say only serves to meet your interest, and nothing else, because you claim connectedness, and yet you are do distant from suffering of others.

Don't tell me this world isn't so bad, tell those who are presently suffering. Are you connected to the depressed suicidal person? Are you connected to mothers crying over their sick babies right now? Are you connected to their prayers?

No, what you are connected to is a star that might explode one day. You are connected to a universe that has dictated survival of the fittest. And this is what you want to convince me of? You are connected to a genocidal natural universe, one that kills indiscriminately, without feeling or compassion. And it's to the genocidal universe you want others to connect to. So they can come back to the same genocidal natural world? That's cruel.



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 




There is no hope in natural universe.


I disagree with you Indy. I think there is hope in the natural universe, and that we are all connected in life as well as afterward. We are connected to each other's pain and we are becoming better with each other. We all rise together, albeit at different rates.

The spiritual is part of the natural universe, and God is manifest through the natural universe.

Reincarnation is "training wheels", so to speak, for eternity. We aren't ready for eternity. We need to sleep and dream. We need fresh starts and new mornings with a boldly rising sun. The natural universe is our inheritance. It's ours for eternity. This is where our hope comes from, the future.




edit on 25-10-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 10:11 PM
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AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen
 



If God is good, and you know that God is good, then you know something about God -- where does infinity come into it?


I don't know that he's good. I don't even know that he exists. If he does, its in a form that can't touch this reality without breaking it.


I can tell you how you know God does exist. It's in survival of the fittest. I think I posted this on another thread, you can choose to go there to look at it and read it, but the point is, the natural universal law is genocidal.

Survival of the fittest is genocide. And if you say that genocide is wrong, then you are in opposition to the natural law. There is no natural law against genocide, murder can only be wrong if a moral law dictates it is wrong. And since there is no law against it, then it is not a crime.

But it is a crime, so what determines it is a crime, is a moral lawgiver and moral punisher and rewarder. The natural universe has no room for morality in survival of the fittest. But because murder is a crime, that we feel inwardly that we should not kill, it doesn't come from us, if we are products of a natural law.

And if we can think higher and in opposition to the natural law, then it comes from a place beyond and higher than the natural universe.

That's how I know God is real, because of survival of the fittest. If we are products of the natural order, and can think greater than the natural order, then we aren't products of the natural order.



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 10:15 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


Genocide isn't a crime in the eyes of the Biblical God.



posted on Oct, 25 2013 @ 10:31 PM
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windword
reply to post by WarminIndy
 




There is no hope in natural universe.


I disagree with you Indy. I think there is hope in the natural universe, and that we are all connected in life as well as afterward. We are connected to each other's pain and we are becoming better with each other. We all rise together, albeit at different rates.

The spiritual is part of the natural universe, and God is manifest through the natural universe.

Reincarnation is "training wheels", so to speak, for eternity. We aren't ready for eternity. We need to sleep and dream. We need fresh starts and new mornings with a boldly rising sun. The natural universe is our inheritance. It's ours for eternity. This is where our hope comes from, the future.




edit on 25-10-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)


Haven't the untouchables been told this for thousands of years? Don't they come back again and again to be untouchables because their caste had determined that they were not allowed compassion?

Women burned on the funeral pyres, thrown on them alive, because the lot of women was to serve her husband in his next life until he was reincarnated to live with another woman?

Millions of people starving in the world but you can't eat meats, because it might be someone's grandmother? Men marrying Barbie Dolls, because their girlfriends were reincarnated into plastic?

Do you have a choice regarding your reincarnation? Did you have the choice to come to this world born to the parents you chose before you came? Did you chose your parents?

And if you reincarnated, are you paying for your previous crimes now? Are you giving accountability now for your previous lives? And were you giving accountability before or after you believed in reincarnation?

Did reincarnation give you the escape from your parents? And if you were sent to this life to pay for your previous crimes, then why did you say your parents were cruel to you, if in fact, you were sent to take accountability? And if you didn't choose your parents, then karma chose for you? And if karma chose for you to be sent back to be held accountable, then why did you say it was wrong for your parents to treat you like they did, if it was predetermined by fate and karma to teach you a lesson?

You parents could not have been wrong in any way if karma and fate dictated that you were to be born to them. So why do you say they were wrong? Karma chose them for you, that's Kismet.

So karma sent you to them, for you to learn from them about your accountability, but then you say they were bad parents, even though the universe set you right down to them. They then were the exact right parents for you if kismet determined they were. Have you questioned karma's wisdom in where you were born to in this life?

You learned about reincarnation that you get to try over and over and over until you get it right, but karma has a funny sense of humor, to put you with your parents. Tell me, have you made accountability yet, or did you run away from the accountability?



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