Turns out there really are Death Panels...here comes the spin

People fail to realize there is a difference from insurance companies and medicaid ending payments because of cost.

The service is still available if you raise the money which people do...I know cuz I work such a charity for such people.

"Death panel" doesnt refer to end of payments..

But to the refusal of care.....no matter how much money you have, because they ration health care.

Now I say this with all the love to those arguing we already have death panels. So dont take this the wrong way just getting your attention.

We dont

reply to post by FreeMason

People fail to realize there is a difference from insurance companies and medicaid ending payments because of cost.

The service is still available if you raise the money which people do...I know cuz I work such a charity for such people.

"Death panel" doesnt refer to end of payments..

But to the refusal of care.....no matter how much money you have, because they ration health care.

Now I say this with all the love to those arguing we already have death panels. So dont take this the wrong way just getting your attention.

We dont

This is certainly true, and working for such a charity is admirable but I think your post ignores some key elements of the discussion.

1. The notion that the creation of anything a reasonable person could construe as a "Death Panel" was ever a provision of the ACA is a complete fabrication and I challenge anyone to offer a single shred of evidence to the contrary.

2. "The service is still available if you raise the money which people do." What happens if you don't raise the money? Should an individual's healthcare be contingent on the ability of their family and other concerned people to fundraise?

3. My takeaway from the slate.com article referenced by the OP is that the Canadian's Consent and Capacity Board is less about "government death panels" so much as a physicians seeking legal recourse to discontinue treatment of patients in a persistent vegetative state, on ethical grounds, against the wishes of the next of kin. Arguably, the panel might be better equipped than a judge to make this determination but it's a moot point in a discussion of current U.S. law.


From the content of the article, I did not pick up any indication that the Consent and Capacity Board is appealed to in any but the most dire end of life circumstances and are therefore not simply "rationing care." There's scant information presented about the purview of this body, but I can easily imagine situations where an appeal could be made to preserve life. Consider when a person responsible for making medical decisions for another refuses to give consent for a life-saving/prolonging procedure despite the urging of physicians? Would this make them "Life Panels?"

for those that might be interested, i think these are the names of the panels.

Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB)

Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute ( PCORI)

i posted this in another thread.

now they spin it this way and then spin it back. but it still a bunch of people sitting behind desks looking at what care i get, that's not me, my family or my doctor. sounds familiar doesn't it, we already had that with the old insurance companies. but now it's officially mandated by federal law.

reply to post by theantediluvian


And you think health care should be rationed?

FreeMason
reply to post by theantediluvian

 

And you think health care should be rationed?

No, I do not believe that healthcare should be rationed. I also do not believe that a person's care should be determined by the profit motives of an insurer. I think that many people incorrectly apply Adam Smith's invisible hand metaphor of market self-regulation to health insurance. The average insured person has a limited choice of plans and providers because of the prohibitively high cost of purchasing insurance without the benefit of an employer's contribution and negotiated group rates.

Can you imagine if your choice of homes was restricted to those owned by your employer or you could only purchase goods at the company store? The company town model is largely reviled in modern society so why should we continue to support an archaic system for providing for our healthcare needs that is similarly tied to employment and devoid of choice?

I appreciate your position whatever it may be and not knowing you personally, it is not my intention to direct my rhetorical questions toward you specifically.

FreeMason
www.slate.com...

I can't imagine why liberal rags like "Slate" would start a PR campaign for Death Panels unless...DING DING DING, they are coming home!

In all honesty, I believe in allowing the natural world to function, in spite of current technology. That being said, what I mean is that when someone is only being kept alive by a machine, people need to realize that doing so is only a novelty and that the person is not meant to come back unless they're truly meant to do so. It makes sense to put the power to pull the plug (and the financial and mechanical resources in stalemate) in the hands of a panel when the patient's family is unwilling to commit to the loss of that individual.

evictiongnostic

bobs_uruncle

AutumnWitch657
I have no idea what this means. Death panel???

In Canada it's a group of civic minded individuals that act somewhat like a jury. They determine whether or not a patient who may be comatose, organs failing, possibly brain dead, should be taken off life support and allowed to die. The panel overrules doctors and next of kin in these decisions and makes what they feel is the best decision for the patient, not the government, doctors, next of kin or health care provider.

In the US, death panel has many meanings, it could be;

1. A panel of one, meaning Obama.
2. A panel, group or one member at the NSA or CIA
3. A group of telemarkers working for the health care industry making arbitrary decisions based on bottom line profit and loss statements per individual patient.

Cheers - Dave

edit on 10/22.2013 by bobs_uruncle because: (no reason given)

Umm...No. If the US government did institute a similar system it would be something like the Canadian system or a panel of experts who would be equipped to make that decision.

I don't know if you're joking but 1-3 are ludicrous suggestions.

Yes because the US government has a wonderful track record of making good decisions! How long before someone gets to decide if I'm worth a knee replacement or a bypass? I don't trust anyone to make those decisions for me. My doctor is already asking permission to take A ct scan and it will probably get worse.

reply to post by FreeMason


You have the comprehension ability of a 3rd grader. Did you bother to read and comprehend what was said in the article.

The Ontario Canada system seems reasonable when family can't agree on a decision. Rather then spend thousands in a courtroom - they have arbitation. It has no bearing on US law whatsoever.

reply to post by FreeMason

But to the refusal of care.....no matter how much money you have, because they ration health care.

You are correct. My Husband went to the doctor who said he needed certain tests but they could not do them because "He was too old"

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71

Yes because the US government has a wonderful track record of making good decisions! How long before someone gets to decide if I'm worth a knee replacement or a bypass?

It is worse than that. My Mom had breast cancer so the doctor and the US government decide she was a great guinea pig for their radiation experiments and then for experiments with Chemo-therapy. They finally managed to kill her after putting her through HE!! for a year.

Physician assisted suicide is legal in a few states in the US. It's usually done when you're given a sedative, and then the physician fills the injector with a substance that stops your heart, but you yourself actually have to push the button to inject the solution, hence physician "assisted."

Face the facts.....America has let the Rockefellers
turn health care into the biggest scam in american history....
read your history people.......................
How the hell anyone can expect a for profit enter prise to
provide cheaper better services is far beyond my understanding....
The simple math will tell you so........
Time to erase the health care plans and provide truely UNIVERSAL health care

I cannot begin to say how much I deeply hate slate. Opinions and ideas that are opposite mine is fine; you could even teach me something new or turn me over to your way of thinking or ideas. But when it comes to straight up shillery, I lose it.

And we have a whole damn website of organized shills, doing all their one sided, shill bullcrap.

I read an article from them for writing class on the effects of technology on children, and if it's safe to have children develop through learning from screens in their faces. Slate says there is nothing bad happening from this, and that any possible negative effects from this are listed by technology paranoids and luddites.

Read another one where the U.S. government was switching to chiropractic treatments instead of depression meds for surge of armed forces personnel killing themselves. In classic slate fashion, they bash the crap out of chiropractic treatment, calling it quackery and fake medicine (despite it's obvious effectiveness for many ailments for thousands of years), and says the government is simply getting desperate and floundering around for any possible solution to this problem, even if it means resorting to their quackery.

There is not a single shred of objectivity in anything they put out. Crap news outfit, they are.

This is yet another reason to hate them more. Repping a bunch of unknown bigwig docs who decide if your dying family member should just die sooner much sooner instead of utilizing any advanced treatment , which can prolong life? Yeah, and i'll hand an AA12 to a murderous toddler...

FreeMason
www.slate.com...

I can't imagine why liberal rags like "Slate" would start a PR campaign for Death Panels unless...DING DING DING, they are coming home!

Wasn't this what Glenn Beck said way back in....oh, the first time Obamacare was introduced? Wait, didn't the MSM bash Fox for reporting this?

I really do think there are some people who are so mesmerized by the Socialism taking over, they will allow themselves to live "supported" by the State and think the State has it covered when they die. They don't have issues with Death Panels, because they are already such a part of the State they don't really care what happens to anyone else. It's almost like people think Communism is a Utopia...but can I just throw this in here?



We are IN Metropolis now.

For those who are stupid enough to think Communism is a good thing, why don't you just ask the millions of subjected people in Russia, and why did Communism take over the various states around Russia? Why not ask the Romanians, Bulgarians, Poles and former East Germans if Communism was a good idea. And then ask yourself about Fascism, if that's good either.

Death panels were used in Nazi Germany, but when they are mentioned here, people poo-poo the idea and think it's not so bad. So if it's not so bad, those of you who supported the Democratic party who chose to begin the implementation, which group of people do you think should be "State Euthanized"?

Will you simply point to the group of people that you feel are not worthy to be on this planet that they should become victims of Death Panels. Go ahead, if you say Republicans, then you are guilty of wanting to destroy someone of another political ideology. That's what Hitler, Pol Phot and Stalin did. Go ahead, say a race of people, then you are guilty of racism. Go ahead, say the disabled, then you are guilty of taking away the value of a human life. Go ahead, if you are so confident of Obama's mandatory and evil forcing of the insurance fraud, why don't you tell us what group of people you feel should be the victims?

If you say the elite, then you are basically taking us back to the French Revolution, is that how you want to play it? Do you want to see rich people beheaded on the guillotine? Can you really live with that on your conscience?

When there is such a thing as a group of people who determines that another life should be taken, for no other reason than them being disabled or ill, then where does the line get drawn? You have no clue as to where the policies originate, you have no idea of who formed your local Planned Parenthood. It wasn't formed for providing abortions and giving out contraceptives, it was formed solely to reduce undesirable populations.

So then, those of you so enamored by the current administration, why don't you point out to the rest of us which groups you feel should be the victims of the death panels, that will be administered before you turn 80 years-old, and then you will be the victim, simply because you are too old to contribute. Is your life valuable? You chose to support it, there ain't no escape now.

Do you not see how you have made yourself the victim?

reply to post by FyreByrd


And that's what you don't understand, it is Canadian policy that the MSM tells us to look at, it IS what Obamacare is based on. Didn't you know that? Or did your MSM cover that up?

stirling
Face the facts.....America has let the Rockefellers
turn health care into the biggest scam in american history....
read your history people.......................
How the hell anyone can expect a for profit enter prise to
provide cheaper better services is far beyond my understanding....
The simple math will tell you so........
Time to erase the health care plans and provide truely UNIVERSAL health care

Let me get this right, so a UNIVERSAL health care administered by whom? A group of politicians or doctors from around the world?

Who exactly is going to be in charge of this, and how are they going to fund a universal health care program? That means YOU as a tax payer in your country is going to support abortions in this country. That's a good idea? And you thought the Rockefellers were making money, just wait until the money comes rolling in to whatever group of people is in charge of the universal health care system.

Did you ever think of that? Who is going to control the money for the universal health system? The American government? The British government? Or is it going to be a privately held company?

Imagine that, the wealth of the world poured into one health system, who is going to be in charge of the oversight to determine how the money is spent?

Oh imagine the money that can be made off a universal health care system. And you have a problem with the Rockefellers, imagine the group that will control the money off this one. And you thought the elitist were simply bankers. So why don't you ask yourself just who is pushing for a universal health care system? Could it be that they are setting themselves up for the money to come rolling in from the unsuspecting masses who thought this was a good idea?

Yep, as it will be an administration, that means someone is going to be the administrator, and that means a pretty good chunk of change for that person. So yes, you are supporting TPTB by saying you think there should be a universal health care system. Yes, you have supported their elitism because they are going to be so wealthy, you won't even be able to imagine their wealth.

reply to post by FreeMason




And Obama Laughs!

"Ha Ha Ha Ha, people, people, Romney says there will be Death Panels! Let me be clear, the lies spread for this election is astounding!"

"Romney spreads fear in the American citizens, by this kind of propaganda, about Death Panels!"
"Romney Lies and everyone else that suggests that there is!"


Hey Stupid People! Remember this One?


This is What You Voted For! You better hope you don't have an extended Severe Concussion or the doctors have induced Coma for some sort of Head Trama that may happen to you do to a car crash or something!
You will be considered a liability due to lengthy costly recovery so they just might determine there isn't enough Brain Wave action going on in your cranium and it would be in your best interest just to pull the plug or give you more than enough medication for your pain to relax you to a deep place to just expire.


This is what you get! WE TOLD YOU IDIOTS AND YOU DIDNT BELIEVE US! Congratulations!

PRS395
reply to post by FreeMason

 

And Obama Laughs!

"Ha Ha Ha Ha, people, people, Romney says there will be Death Panels! Let me be clear, the lies spread for this election is astounding!"

"Romney spreads fear in the American citizens, by this kind of propaganda, about Death Panels!"
"Romney Lies and everyone else that suggests that there is!"


Hey Stupid People! Remember this One?


This is What You Voted For! You better hope you don't have an extended Severe Concussion or the doctors have induced Coma for some sort of Head Trama that may happen to you do to a car crash or something!
You will be considered a liability due to lengthy costly recovery so they just might determine there isn't enough Brain Wave action going on in your cranium and it would be in your best interest just to pull the plug or give you more than enough medication for your pain to relax you to a deep place to just expire.


This is what you get! WE TOLD YOU IDIOTS AND YOU DIDNT BELIEVE US! Congratulations!

He's their messiah, let their messiah save them. That's how he was presented to them, as a messiah. So let's see them pray to their messiah to save them when the time comes for them to be put in front of a death panel. "I thought Obama cared for us when he gave us free cell phones...". "I thought Obama cared about hope and change..." "I thought Obama loved us....".

See, that's what people will be saying when it happens. So let them pray to their messiah to get them out of what is coming.

reply to post by WarminIndy


You are a very confused person. Please allow me to disabuse you of some of your more ridiculous beliefs.

Fox News is the MSM. Fox News has a larger share of the cable news market than all other cable news channels COMBINED.

Glenn Beck is also part of the MSM. He's got one of the top 10 radio shows in the country. Political talk radio is almost exclusively the domain of conservatives. As a matter of fact, the top 2 radio shows in the country are hosted by Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.

When you make ludicrous statements about what Glenn Beck was saying while the MSM was bashing Fox News, you're very hard to take seriously. Did you even bother to read any of the other posts or did you just see "death panels" and feel compelled to go on a nonsensical rant? Maybe you're suffering from the effects of conservative MSM brainwashing in the form of key words and phrases repeated thousands of times. You've drawn asinine comparisons to Hitler and claimed that liberals view Obama as a "messiah" as well--basically all you've demonstrated is that facts don't inform your beliefs.

If you could please point out anything in the ACA that establishes a death panel, I would personally love to see it and then maybe I could be enraged too. Try substantiating your argument with evidence, not pleas to ignorance.

reply to post by theantediluvian

If you could please point out anything in the ACA that establishes a death panel, I would personally love to see it and then maybe I could be enraged too. Try substantiating your argument with evidence, not pleas to ignorance.

I read the whole bill along with other ATS members eons ago. You can go back in the archives and look it up if you wish but there was a 'Board' who decided what health care you got.


Howard Dean, M.D. is a Doctor, who was Governor of Vermont from 1991 - 2003 and Chairman of the Democratic National Committee from 2005 - 2009. He founded Democracy for America in 2004.

This is what he says in the Wall Street Journal

.... . . The administration’s decision to delay implementation of the employer mandate until 2015 will help funnel individuals and families who do not get insurance through their employer into the exchanges. While this may benefit the participating insurers in the short term, this also accelerates the trend toward divorcing health care from employment. This is not a radical idea, and was even proposed by Sen. John McCain in his 2008 presidential campaign. That development will lead to the end of job lock for workers and contribute to a more competitive American business community in the longer run.

That said, the law still has its flaws, and American lawmakers and citizens have both an opportunity and responsibility to fix them.One major problem is the so-called Independent Payment Advisory Board. The IPAB is essentially a health-care rationing body. By setting doctor reimbursement rates for Medicare and determining which procedures and drugs will be covered and at what price, the IPAB will be able to stop certain treatments its members do not favor by simply setting rates to levels where no doctor or hospital will perform them.

There does have to be control of costs in our health-care system. However, rate setting—the essential mechanism of the IPAB—has a 40-year track record of failure. What ends up happening in these schemes (which many states including my home state of Vermont have implemented with virtually no long-term effect on costs) is that patients and physicians get aggravated because bureaucrats in either the private or public sector are making medical decisions without knowing the patients. Most important, once again, these kinds of schemes do not control costs. The medical system simply becomes more bureaucratic.

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has indicated that the IPAB, in its current form, won’t save a single dime before 2021. As everyone in Washington knows, but less frequently admits, CBO projections of any kind—past five years or so—are really just speculation. I believe the IPAB will never control costs based on the long record of previous attempts in many of the states, including my own state of Vermont....

So yes, you have a board "making medical decisions without knowing the patients." A "health-care rationing body."

THAT is not from FOX but from a Democrat and a Doctor.