MSNBC - Obama's Obamacare Lies And Secrecy Unacceptable

Helious


Like socialism much?

When it comes to healthcare? Absolutely...other than that I own multiple businesses and am a fierce capitalist.

When you show me how cancer fits in a Labor Supply and Demand equation...or how the need to treat a heart-attack responds with price elasticity...or for that matter disprove the reality that healthcare is fixed demand and thus a corrupt private market with inflated prices...then we can discuss "socialism".

Until then ...yes, I believe in socialized healthcare...because disease cares not about prices or supply and demand.

I guess that put's me in the socialist company of the rest of the civilized world, Canada, UK, Ireland et al.

reply to post by Indigo5

Until then ...yes, I believe in socialized healthcare...because disease cares not about prices or supply and demand.

Correct, diseases do not.

Systems that supply healthcare to humans however do operate on supply and demand.... whether the system is a capitalist or socialist one.

They never would have tried this crap if the tax collectors still had to go door to door.

They'd be the ones needing all the healthcare, pikemen or not.

I still cant believe this pigs hired a canadian company to make the site. I cant beleive obamamas campaign tour bus was made in canada. ..... wait. It all makes sense now. Obama is a canadian spy/plant!

butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Until then ...yes, I believe in socialized healthcare...because disease cares not about prices or supply and demand.

Correct, diseases do not.

Systems that supply healthcare to humans however do operate on supply and demand.... whether the system is a capitalist or socialist one.

yes...SUPPLY is variable ... DEMAND is fixed.

See...if you want a new car...Price matters and you will not buy that Ferrari at 1 Million....will you buy it at $100 dollars? How many cars the manufacturer produces and what price they charge is determined by demand at different price levels and where profitability lands.

DEMAND changes with price.

The DEMAND to treat cancer does not change with price...ditto Heart Attack...ditto most diseases and health care treatments and prevention.

DEMAND IS FIXED...which means on the SUPPLY end they can charge whatever they like without concern of changing demand.

If we are talking cars, donuts, perfume etc. etc. etc. People's demand for those products VARY depending on price.

Not so with healthcare...DEMAND FIXED ....people do not get sick less when healthcare is more expensive. The SUPPLIERS of healthcare can charge prices without concern for price elasticity or Supply and Demand equilibrium.

Otherwise, they are able to collect excessive profits from the inherent disconnect that healthcare has from the foundation of free-market capitalism. DEMAND doesn't change to reflect price changes.

It is why the USA ranks #37 in healthcare service provided...but #1 by a HUGE margin in healthcare expense.

This is basic economics.

It is why any country outside the USA not engaged in a culture/ideological war scratches their heads at the rhetoric coming from the right. I love capitalism, I profit nicely from it...but Healthcare doesn't fit into the capitalistic equations. It's a rigged game in the free market.

SubTruth
Nice.........The progressive vermin are starting to turn on each other. It is only a matter of time dear readers and members before this and any progressive movement self implodes under it's own weight.




The people leading the masses of progressive fools could care less about free health care. They care about control and have used the easiest flock of sheep to gain it. How many times have we seen this in the past and yet we still do not learn from it.



A progressive minded person can not even run a household why would you let them run a country.

edit on 22-10-2013 by SubTruth because: (no reason given)

Let's try replacing one word and comparing the two statements for accuracy given recent events...

Nice.........The right-wing vermin are starting to turn on each other. It is only a matter of time dear readers and members before this and any right-wing movement self implodes under it's own weight.




The people leading the masses of right-wing fools could care less about repealing health care. They care about control and have used the easiest flock of sheep to gain it. How many times have we seen this in the past and yet we still do not learn from it.



A right-wing minded person can not even run a household why would you let them run a country.

reply to post by Indigo5


That doesn't even make any sense.

On what planet does less equal more?

Granted, you were just trying to be clever, but I think you failed big.

reply to post by Indigo5


I remember how a Demand was Fixed when I was a young girl in China. Mao noticed that in 1949, 80 percent of China was rural farm land and very poor people.
To be assure the success of the Great Leap Forward.
The party launched a massive public health campaign by sending out trained workers to the countryside to treat rural farmers.

Later I remember Mao created a medical system that was very poor.
Let me find a document for you, my memory isn't as good as it was.
Ah, I remember these young men and women were as poor as us.

His government created a national healthcare policy called the cooperative medical system (CMS), a three-tiered system that included barefoot doctors, commune health centers, and county hospitals, and provided free healthcare to 90 percent of the population. Barefoot doctors were young peasants who received three to six months of medical training and provided free basic healthcare including first aid, immunizations against common diseases like measles, health education, and hygiene.

I also know that many of them had just returned from training medics in N. Vietnam. This would have been in the 60's I was in my late teens then and attending the university of Harbin.
I'm Sorry off Topic.
So I wanted to interject that obamacare will be similar to this little tidbit:

[b]David Wood, a ChinaCare Group health consultant in Beijing and former senior manager at a U.S.-based hospital told me: There is no safety net in China. ... If you don't have money, you just don't get treatment. He cited estimates that 70 to 80 percent of healthcare dollars come out of patients' pockets.

www.foreignpolicy.com...

reply to post by guohua


Good Post !!

And some of that might be today's "Out of (your) Pocket" expenses.

As in "Deductibles".

I wonder if ObamaCare has *Provisions* for that ?

Even IF somebody has insurance, what happens when they can't *Pay* the deductibles ?

Hmmm

Indigo5
So the OP claims that the President lied while offering "blah, blah, blah" as evidence? Whatever our political leanings, we shouldn't be required to be morons.

elouina
I really don't need to list anymore about the contents of the video when I can sum the entire thing up with this: Lied... Blah blah blah... Lied... blah blah blah.... Etc....

Don't rip up the messenger, just watch the video where the word lied is used more often than I have listed. They are the ones claiming lies, so why don't you ask them for proof?

Indigo5
reply to post by elouina

 

While I understand the emotive satisfaction to hear an left leaning, liberal show declare the Obama Administration "lying", I still hold the same standard to these statements as I do to middle or right leaning media.

Can we at least be specific and investigate claims?

Mike Barnicle, the guest commentator:

"They are lying about the numbers who have enrolled...the numbers of who have made the process complete...the numbers of people who have actually signed up"

Can we fact check that? Have they lied? Wouldn't that be the starting point for a "Deny Ignorance" discussion?

edit on 22-10-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-10-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

This thread is about the awakening of the liberal MSM. If you want to turn this into a proof thread about the actual lies themselves, then Elouina is you gal. I can go on and on all day and night if it pleases you.

Lets start here with our most recent bit of news. The other day, Obama had a press briefing in the Rose Garden. Only 3 of the 13 people representing the success of Obamacare, present at the Obama propaganda briefing for Obamacare, were actual registrants at the websites. While only 2 of them actually enrolled.

This here is a case of simple misrepresentation of the success of the Obamacare program. How does Obama know they will benefit? They never even reached the point of enrollment and got their rates. Sure those people can dream of what this program can provide. But if it ends up costing them $9000 a year each, their dream may never be recognized. Maybe visit them a year later when their retirement savings plan has had zero contributions? Or maybe that home or apartment upgrade had to be shelved. I feel that it is a bit soon to be claiming success when these people haven't even had a chance to be affected. Will the high risk person that got insurance be a success? Perhaps and I will not deny this. But what about the rest? This program needs to benefit all and not just select groups, for this is what would be the true measure of success. Benefiting every American!

Of the 13 people who flanked President Obama during his speech defending Obamacare in the Rose Garden Monday, just three had successfully registered for the new Obamacare exchanges.

The three people who were able to register included: Janice Baker, who introduced the president and as of last week was the only person to have successfully enrolled in health care coverage through Delaware’s state exchange; David Hall, an IT consultant who signed up for health care through the DC Health Link; and Zohre Abolfazli, who was able to register through healthcare.gov last night and still needs to shop for her “best plan.

Group behind Obama at Rose Garden speech includes only 3 Obamacare registrants

reply to post by Indigo5

Not so with healthcare...DEMAND FIXED ....people do not get sick less when healthcare is more expensive. The SUPPLIERS of healthcare can charge prices without concern for price elasticity or Supply and Demand equilibrium.

Is this really how you see it?

Do you understand why Obama care has varying levels of coverage with their plans?
If a poor soul has to pay out of pocket.... demand goes down.

Go to a free health clinic some time. They have plenty of demand and not enough supply... and there are lines. Do you know why there is so much demand.... because it is free.

when I have to pay an out of pocket copay of 35 bucks because my kid has the sniffles, my kid doesn't go to the doctor, they get an over the counter cold remedy.
But I have waited in the Emergency Room at the local hospital suffering from a kidneystone while ghetto dwellers bringing their kids with the sniffles were seen before me.... and they weren't paying a dime.

reply to post by lernmore


Wow...there does seem to be some reality disconnect going on here...Maybe watch the news once in a while??

Poll: Major damage to GOP after shutdown

There was little in the findings for the GOP to feel good about. The party’s image has sunk to an all-time low in Post-ABC surveys, with 32 percent of the public saying they have a favorable opinion and 63 percent saying they have an unfavorable view. Almost four in 10 Americans have a strongly unfavorable view of the GOP.

The tea party fares just as badly. Barely a quarter of the public has a favorable image of the movement, the lowest rating in Post-ABC polling.

www.washingtonpost.com... -b7ba-503fb5822c3e_story.html

And this is just one of dozens of polls showing ALL TIME HISTORIC LOWS for the GOP.

New polls by CNN and the Washington Post measure the damage. Both polls show Democrats taking an 8-point lead in the generic ballot for Congress — a result that, if it held up, would likely depose the Republican majority. The election is a year away, and everybody expects the damage to subside. But deeper reputation damage can be detected. CNN asks voters if they consider each party “too extreme” or “generally mainstream.” By a 52 percent to 42 percent margin, they deem the Democrats generally mainstream. By a 56 percent to 37 percent margin, they call Republicans too extreme. The shutdown may not have been an act of suicide — there’s plenty of time to recover — but it was surely a suicidal gesture.

nymag.com...

reply to post by Indigo5

Who cares about the GOP?
They are just Democrats that use TP.

reply to post by Indigo5


Now Now.

You *Know* full well those polls are emphasized by ultra Left sources right ?

They are the ones who are scared stiff these days.

Much more scared than ever before.

#TeaParty

reply to post by Indigo5

Wow...there does seem to be some reality disconnect going on here...Maybe watch the news once in a while??

Yes maybe you should, Call your supervisor over to your desk there in the obama support basement and ask if this is an accurate account of events today.

Press Secretary Jay Carney walks out on reporters asking questions about the healthcare.gov website on 10/22/2013

www.atr.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">http...://www.atr.org/carney-ducks-obamacare-questions-walks-press-a7947
Which I'm sure they are,,,, Maybe the obamas administration needs to be Transparent and bring in an expert to tell the people that report the news the Truth.
Opppps.. They would make them look bad though, they'd have to admit, They Lied!

reply to post by butcherguy


Yes I will grant you that the actual purchase varies slightly with price, but the literal Demand remains fixed.

Otherwise...there is always the "get sick and die" alternative.

Again when the fog of ideological war clears...this is a flat earth debate. A reality that the rest of the world understands.

That is why out of the 33 Most Developed Nations on the globe...32 of them had a form of socialized healthcare long ago. can you guess who the exception is? Well..until now.

And places like Ireland, England, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Israel, Italy, Spain etc. etc. are hardly bastions of socialism..

truecostblog.com...

reply to post by guohua


Yes. Newsflash...every press briefing that has ever been given, ends at some point. They stop taking questions.

Can't help this kind of self imposed ideological delusion.

ACA is the law...That is that.

The GOP's approval ratings is lower than has ever been recorded.

Whatever reality you construct amongst yourselves to continue the lies and vitriol...really, who cares? I mean if you were open to discussing something with reality as a foundation, sure...But this OP literally begins with "yada, yada, yada" as a premise to support a claim.

Have at it folks...cling together and share the BS and with a little luck no light will creep in.

Indigo5

Wow...Almost 10 Million people tried to sign up in the first week??

Yes...the site is broken and in-excusably so...but that first week number clearly shows a real demand.

Are these actual single hits or multiple hits from the same people over and over trying to sign up? I don't believe any of these figures unless you sign me into the back end of whatever screw up platform they're using so I can see the actual hits.

nwtrucker
reply to post by elouina

 

The simple fact is our economy adjusted to market pressures and flourished best without gov't intervention and regulations.

Ultimately, that's where and how the jobs will be created and we turn this around. Take the leashes off and let them get on with it.

All that happened during the beginning stage of capitalism, when there were no or very small number of corporations. In decades the strongest have survived and grown so big that nearly no small company is able to compete with them, unless they have extremely innovative or cheap-to-produce idea. Otherwise it is nearly impossible for starters, as they are not able to keep up with the lower prices that large ones can offer, while not being able to afford the specialists and/or equipment.

US small business sector is nearly inexistent compared to most other advanced economies (by international standards)