what values do liberals have?

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posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:28 AM
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The author of this thread apparently is blinded by nationalism.. he cannot see past it.

America wasting our money.. putting ourselves into massive debt to liberate Iraqis? Nah... You believe in all that propaganda spewed out by that religious fanatic known as Bush.

Most people in the United States have little interest in making this nation into a Christian theocracy.. I refuse to believe in your religious beliefs and that is that. Bush can take his "right and moral" views and shove it about how we should allow people to suffer and die and not do critical med research based on this "God" he believes in. Christian values are not everyone elses values... deal with it.

It is your kind which caused 9-11 and the hatred towards America.. It's this nationalism which is also causing the hatred. The idea that ones nation and people is superior to another is called nationalism.

This is not progressive politics... any leader that does not work to progress and enhance and improve the lives of the people must be rid of immediately. People come first... your "God" last.

It's not up to you or your "God" to determine how a mother can use her body.... are you going to take care of an unwanted baby? Probably not. So quiet down a bit because abortion will continue whether you wave your bible and rant or not. Like I said, people first... your idealogy later.

The truth is the founding fathers beliefs are nothing like today's bible thumping conservatives think they are.. they simply twist it for there own purposes.

They were for equality and liberty... today's conservatives tend to be racially oppressive and have a double standard when it comes to who is allowed liberty and equality.

[edit on 16-11-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 16-11-2004 by RedOctober90]




posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:36 AM
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nationalism, in any form, should always been watched very closely. However, the US is peculiar in that its government is unusually good at conceiling nationalist rhetoric and manipulation under a guise that is far easier to swallow: patriotism. Patriotism is just rainbow-flavoured nationalism, without the fascist connotations. However, it is basically the same thing. The rise of fascism would not have been possible if not for nationalism, the most powerful of its tools. Already, USA is exhibiting fascist tendencies. What does 'homeland' remind you of?

[edit on 16-11-2004 by General Zapata]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 02:21 AM
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I'm a Brit, and hardly the most political of Brits at that but I've got to say this gulf between democrats and republicans in the US seems to be getting a little scary to say the least. I'm a moderate liberal with a few conservative leanings so I can relate to what some of the more moderate cons are saying but theirs a few on here that are so entrenched in one world view and outlook it almost puts me in mind of a Munich Beer Kellar. That's the danger, a country that's always been deeply patriotic (both reps and dems) and rightly so has started to display a far more overt and darker strain of nationalism since 9/11, understandable that fear and a desire for justice exists but the more aggressive excesses need to be reigned in.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 03:39 AM
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Originally posted by bushfriend
While at a pro bush rally I knew I was surrounded by people who generally agreed with my morale values. I knew these people were pro life, believed in god, loved America, believed all nations and people deserved freedom, and finally supported our troops. I thought if the liberals generally disagree with the conservatives moral compass what do they believe?. They support the killing of children in there mothers womb, they have on many occasions attempted to rid god from the publics view, they opposed liberating the people of Kuwait and Iraq, and are quick to call our brave troops who would die for our nation war criminals.


Gosh Son,
Your only 14 years into life, do not become so set in your ways. Before you close your options explore them. I have morals as well as brains and I follow no one. If I must I will lead. I voted for Bush Sr. first time and against him second time and foolishly voted for his son the first time and against the second. My first looser bet.

Politics is a fixed horse race, this is why I refer to it as a bet, do ya follow?
Do you have any idea how many children we have killed in this war, I do not. But when you drop a 500 pound bomb on a City block you have no idea who you are killing. Women, children, old men, or insurgents, Insurgents that are filled with rage because your bombs killed his family and now he is going to fight to his death. What would you do if your parents and brothers and sisters were killed from death from the sky from the plane with a Star on it? Would you say it is a Republican morale conservative and I can accept it? I think not.
As far as ripping babies out of wombs go. It is none of your frek'in business. It is a religous decision that must be made between the individual and their God. It should have nothing to do with the State.
Develop your own mind do not allow others to mold it for you. And as far as Bush Friends go think on this.

Americans need to understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism. A patriot loves his land and his people. A nationalist loves his government. The patriot voluntarily does what is necessary to protect his land and his people. A nationalist blindly obeys his government.
-- Charley Reese

Take care,

Polar Bear



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by The Teller


I feel sad for you. Make the distinction between taking life through abortion or the death penalty and will respond. It seem you have some sort of blood lust.


Im sorry but I have no clue what you're talking about. The guy was compairing inoccent babies to murderers, rapists, and molesters. How is that bloodlust?

You make no sense at all



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 02:01 PM
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I'd like to thank the conservitives on ATS for supporting me, too bad there are none.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by bushfriend
I'd like to thank the conservitives on ATS for supporting me, too bad there are none.


Hmm...dont seem like you wanna confront what any of us said about your statement...



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by ubermunche
I'm a Brit, and hardly the most political of Brits at that but I've got to say this gulf between democrats and republicans in the US seems to be getting a little scary to say the least.


haha. It seems that way, doesn't it? The truth is that there is no gulf. They are the SAME party, trying to pass themselves off as different. They both, fundamentally, stand for the same things: destruction of unions, exploitation of workers, and the maintenance of the status quo. The fear of communism paralyzes the american worker, and stops them from rising up and taking the means of production from the capitalist. Most of the world's problems, things like war, imperialism, famine and destruction of the environment stem from the capitalist class's desire for ever increasing profits. No less than the smashing of the capitalist state is needed in the US, and in every nation around the world that puts profit before people.

Now, to government: government is not the primary institution of the capitalist state. The primary institution is capitalism itself, and the primary manifestation of capitalism is the corporation. Government is a secondary institution to the corporation.

[edit on 16-11-2004 by General Zapata]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 04:52 PM
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The difference? Well as I see it, the republican party wants you to only believe what they believe were as liberals want you to have the choice to believe what they believe or what they don't believe. And NO I am not a liberal nor am I any other party.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 05:47 PM
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Liberals have many values similar to conservatives, it's more about what we deem to be more important. America is a quite unique country since it is made up of people from vastly different ethnic/cultural backgrounds. Who am I to push my personal beliefs on someone else who may have been raised differently than myself.

I think it's quite possible to accept people's differences without alienating them from our society ::gay marriages *coughs*:: I don't believe my ultimate judge will condemn me for this.

I am always for the "little guy" that can mean a lot of things depending on the circumstances, whether it be equal rights for women, minorities, gays, muslims...etc.

There are still sticky topics that some liberals and conservatives disagree about, abortion for one. I have mixed feelings about abortion and whether or not it is morally wrong, for myself I don't think I could do it. Not because of any religious reasons keep in mind. BUT, I do NOT equate that women who have abortions are cold-hearted murderers, and when I hear pro-lifer's with their "they should keep their legs closed!"...I can't tell you how much that infuriates me. I honestly think that if men were the ones who gave birth, that abortion wouldn't even be an issue...think about that for a little while.

While I like living in the United States, I don't consider myself very "patriotic". I don't think what country you are from is really important when you look at the big picture. If I saw someone burning an American flag, I'd probably shrug and walk away...it's just a symbol anyways.

I disguise war in general, if anything we should only go into war if another country makes an attack on us. Some people think war is necessary...I'd have to disagree...ideally. I can see how some would consider that unrealistic, but personally I don't think we can solve violence with violence. I could never be the person to decide whether or not my country should enter war...too much blood on my hands from both sides. Is that wimpy? Some would say so, but I am not against war because I am afraid of the enemy or because I cower to them.

What I honestly don't understand is all the liberal bashing...I am proud to identify myself as a liberal and don't see how we can be viewed as "the big enemy". While I'm not totally innocent of ever bashing conservatives, there are lots of their values that I agree with and consider important as well, I'm just more attracted to the liberal side of things...

If your post was sincere in really wanting to understand liberals and what we value, I can't speak for all liberals but I hope I helped you a little...


[edit on 11/16/2004 by Lecky]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 06:01 PM
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The Thread Poster:

"what values do liberals have?

While at a pro bush rally I knew I was surrounded by people who generally agreed with my morale values. I knew these people were pro life, believed in god, loved America, believed all nations and people deserved freedom, and finally supported our troops. I thought if the liberals generally disagree with the conservatives moral compass what do they believe?. They support the killing of children in there mothers womb, they have on many occasions attempted to rid god from the publics view, they opposed liberating the people of Kuwait and Iraq, and are quick to call our brave troops who would die for our nation war criminals. "

More I am a republican and better than you caca. Go back to your day job and take your self righteous stuff with you. People like you who label others and smear them are hippocrits, you know, so called Christians who point their fingers at everyone else telling them they are wrong while telling themselves they are right. It's funny you label liberals as those who kill children in the womb whilst they label you as someone who let's them live and kills them as young adults while serving in our military. Which is worse? Both are wrong in the eyes of the lord you right wing idiots claim to believe in and whose teachings you claim to practice.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 06:08 PM
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Ahhh yes that reminds me of something else that boils my blood. I won't loop all conservatives or Christians into this...you know who you are.

Doesn't the Bible teach that you should not judge? I'm no biblical scholar but I cannot find the verse where Jesus says not to judge...unless they are liberal.

If you are going to preach to others about what is morally correct, at least practice it yourselves - makes your efforts more credible



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by bushfriend
While at a pro bush rally I knew I was surrounded by people who generally agreed with my morale values. I knew these people were pro life, believed in god, loved America, believed all nations and people deserved freedom, and finally supported our troops. I thought if the liberals generally disagree with the conservatives moral compass what do they believe?. They support the killing of children in there mothers womb, they have on many occasions attempted to rid god from the publics view, they opposed liberating the people of Kuwait and Iraq, and are quick to call our brave troops who would die for our nation war criminals.


I am incredibly offended by this post. Who are you to question anyone else's "morale [sic] values"? You claim to be pro-life, yet in a later post give the thumbs up to the death penalty. So murder is OK, as long as the timing's right and you've passed judgment on the victim?

I absolutely support our troops. My father was a vet; my father-in-law did 2 tours in Vietnam. I do *not* support this vendetta the Bush family has going in the Middle East.

I am 100% pro-choice. I am also 100% anti-abortion. You figure it out.

As for the rest: I am a dyed-in-the-wool left-winger. In the words of the incomparable Molly Ivins, "my lil' ol' heart just bleeds all over everybody." For the record, I am a Christian. I'm a member of a rather large non-denominational church to which I give my time, my money and my energy. I also support a local faith-based shelter, an international children's aid fund, various environmental charities, local firefighters' and police officers' funds, and the friggin' PTA at my son's school. In other words, I put my money where my mouth is. What do *you* do?



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 06:42 PM
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quote: they have on many occasions attempted to rid god from the publics view

First ammendment, read it.


Ummm.. *I* have read it...obviously you have not...since it says NOTHING about separation of state and church, just the right to free speech. Which...banning prayer in schools is directly in conflict with.

The so called separation of state in church is a fallacy based on ignorance of history and even fact.

Or forefathers never intended religion be removed from the state. The ONLY thing that is explicitly forbidden to the government is establishing an official state-sponsored church. NOT prayer. Not the 10 commandments, etc

Dont want to pray too bad, the rest of happen to believe that a strong morale influence is necessary for proper guidance of our political leaders. By removing religion from our public venues you are slowly releasing the bonds that holds our government in check.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor

Im sorry but I have no clue what you're talking about. The guy was compairing inoccent babies to murderers, rapists, and molesters. How is that bloodlust?

You make no sense at all

I'm sorry maybe I misunderstood your post, in which case accept my apologies. But the point I was making was that if you want to criminalise abortion on the grounds that it is immoral to kill human life, I can see no other grounds for any argument, and then you cannot also accept the death penalty as being acceptable. Thou shall not kill does not have one of America's style amendments. It means all forms of taking life is wrong and a sin. So if a jury, a judge and a prosecutor all deliver a death sentence, then along with the governor and government as a whole, and the voters that elected them, are all guilty of the worst sin. So connect it please and show me difference between abortion and the death penalty. And no nonsense about murderers and molesters either, that is just moral judgement; it is still the act of killing another human being for your own purpose.

[edit on 16-11-2004 by The Teller]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 06:53 PM
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I didnt say anything about Seperation of Church and state...just what the First Amendment states:


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


The Government cant take favor towards a religious group. Having, say, the 10 Commandments in a CourtHouse, would show favor towards God, being the deity of a certainly large religious group. When nonchristians (like me, atheist actually) dont want that, so it shouldnt be included in our government, AT ALL. We're not trying to take all things related to "God" out from the public, just out of the government (I am atleast).

Our Government shouldnt have ANY religion in it. None. So, to me, the perfect (US) government would be run by atheists. Since they would not lean any way.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by dreamlandmafia

The Government cant take favor towards a religious group. Having, say, the 10 Commandments in a CourtHouse, would show favor towards God, being the deity of a certainly large religious group.


Oh yeah well think of this, in the same courthouse a witness has to swear on the bible to god that is is honest. And what about "InGod We Trust"?

Stranger than fiction man.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 07:14 PM
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aguthart@comcast.net
Aim:
ICQ:
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Location United States of America
Birthday: September 1, 1990
Bio: I like big conspericies and i can not lie.But bin laden must die.
Current Mood: mad at Sadr




This is bushfriend, I give him credt and a
for kicking off a stimulating post.
He is 14 year old lad who is at least concerned about something. His parents should take your rage he or she should receive our guidance.
Polar Bear



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by The Teller
Oh yeah well think of this, in the same courthouse a witness has to swear on the bible to god that is is honest. And what about "InGod We Trust"?

Stranger than fiction man.



You bring up something I've been curious about. I've testified in court several times and never been asked to swear on a bible - it was always something like "do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give...yada yada yada." Has anyone actually ever been asked to swear on a bible?



B.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by The Teller

Originally posted by dreamlandmafia

The Government cant take favor towards a religious group. Having, say, the 10 Commandments in a CourtHouse, would show favor towards God, being the deity of a certainly large religious group.


Oh yeah well think of this, in the same courthouse a witness has to swear on the bible to god that is is honest. And what about "InGod We Trust"?

Stranger than fiction man.


Thats something I want removed...im not happy with it there. When I appear in court soon I wont be saying "I Do" when the bailiff guy says "So Help You God" and my hand wont be on no bible. Ill explain why if they ask for an explanation. I also dont approve of "In God We Trust" on our money, or Under God in the Pledge of Allegiance, I dont say it.





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