Conspiracies built upon brain myths

reply to post by benrl

IF i am wrong, feel free to take apart my arguments, I take no offence in being proven wrong.

Very commendable that you don't. But you have no arguments to take apart. You are off topic and you are going to ruin a potentially very interesting thread by dragging it down to mundane fundamentals that have been discussed ad nauseum on this site. Well, go ahead. I suppose it's too much to expect an intelligent ATS discussion on this subject.

Astyanax

All the advertising, marketing and PR techniques you and benri are calling 'mind control' are simply refinements of the art of persuasion. They can get pretty sneaky at times, just like an unscrupulous door-to-door salesman can, but that's all they are.

Sometimes, our target consumers (you may call them 'victims', if it makes you happier) may not realise that they are being persuasively manipulated. The best persuaders — salesmen, preachers, con artists, messiahs, statesmen, demagogues, sexpots — have always been able to bamboozle people in this way; but that isn't mind control either.

These industries have no ways to turn you into an obedient puppet that will unquestioningly, unthinkingly do their will. That would be mind control, not persuading someone they need the latest iPhone. There is a world of difference between the two.

edit on 21/10/13 by Astyanax because: I forgot messiahs.

Okay, I have been an Executive account rep for Microsoft, and Currently For Dell (working as a marketing consultant) . Ill tell you what you call Persuasion I call mind control.

Manipulation of a person to accomplish the intended outcome while making them feel good about it, is pretty much the Call of every marketing person I know.

You know as a marketing person, that one of the strongest manipulations is the appeal to human mortality.

Frankly, that alone falls under your "Strong" persuasion, YOU you say potato i say potato, the end goal is the same.

Someone, Did what I wanted, while thinking it was their Idea, sure Persuasion, if that helps you sleep at night.

BUT I do agree, us Marketing types are a certain type of sociopath who can manipulate and control people while smiling and thinking we where just doing a job.

Ill tell you this much, in my job, I have never met a client I couldn't contr.... Im sorry, Aggressively persuade.

USING what I have been taught, which is based on predictive models of human behavior, which my company alone spends millions on.

CIAGypsy

SomethingsJustNotRight
So you don't think mind control is possible at all or you don't believe there has been any effort to control people through mind control?

There has clearly been scientific study to determine if it is possible to control the mind, such as MK Ultra. However, those studies were not sustained because of their ineffectual and inconsistent outcomes. As much as people want to believe it, the mind is not a computer. The undeniable truth is that there are cheaper and easier ways to get things done. Scientific research is very harsh when it comes to funding. Contrary to what the average person may think, they don't just dump billions of dollars down a black hole without any perceived and realistic outcome (unless it's Obamacare...). If your study or project doesn't show real movement and sustainability, your funding is axed in a new york minute. There are project waiting lists a mile long waiting for funding. They don't waste time, money, and effort just because the idea "sounds good."

SomethingsJustNotRight
Something as simple and obvious as propaganda and indoctrination are forms of mind control in my opinion.

Yes, propaganda is a generalized form of mind control....otherwise known as Psyops. However, psyops is all about persuasion. The individual still has every right to maintain free will and choice. The "mind control" and "programming" which is the subject of this thread is about the removal of free will and choice.

SomethingsJustNotRight
You seem like a pretty narrow minded scientist, no offence. Perhaps that's a scientific trait.

I'm sorry you think logical and hard facts are "narrow minded." As an inventor and engineer, I like to think I am actually pretty creative. I just don't waste time on hypotheses that prove fallible and inefficient.

Your post has a lot of merit.

My own humble observation about psyops is how they are currently being executed through the mainstream media. If you make nearly all media twaddle, then you do what some call unconscious pumping or priming. In short, if you jam someone full of twaddle and engineer your society to discourage critical thinking skills..then you wind up with the USA and other slave regimes.

KPB

reply to post by Astyanax

Calm yourself, please.

I have already told you ('confessed', if you prefer) that I have spent most of my working life in advertising and related disciplines. I have been something called an account planner (look it up and feel your flesh crawl). If I were able to manipulate your mind directly through the media, I should be able do it with this post. But can I do it? No chance.

lol, I am very calm.

I sold high end electronic for a living. A very lucrative one. However, to make all that cash, I had to basically sell my soul. I had to learn how to read people. I did that by asking them several questions. While I talked to them I watched their facial expressions so that I could see what words that came out of my mouth was reacted to positively versus what words got a negative reaction.

I made a lot of money! Had a new car, a nice home, but guess what. I ended up in a mental hospital, because my conscious couldn't handle my actions.

I always told people when asked, "What do you do for a living?" that I was a psychiatrist! I was! I gained these folks trust, so that I could talk them into purchasing something they didn't need! Keep in mind, I wasn't selling cars. I was selling stereo equipment!

Just because the human mind can be weak and manipulated, does not make it the right thing to do......

Now keep in mind, I am just talking about sales! Now imagine what our governments have been able to do with the human mind so that they can remain in control!

You can deny it, however, I choose to be more realistic! Especially when I look at the work of Bernays and Goeble...

Knowing is half the battle!!

DIC GI Joe Salvo falls under mind control
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmvfy7I42Co
www.youtube.com...


GI Joe spilled the beans along time ago!!

Go Joe!!

reply to post by seeker1963

Right, so you and benri have actually worked in sales and marketing. If you can't understand the difference between persuasion and mind control, I humbly submit that you overestimate your talents at your respective professions. And what you are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with what this thread is about.

And now, good night.

Astyanax
reply to post by benrl

 

IF i am wrong, feel free to take apart my arguments, I take no offence in being proven wrong.

Very commendable that you don't. But you have no arguments to take apart. You are off topic and you are going to ruin a potentially very interesting thread by dragging it down to mundane fundamentals that have been discussed ad nauseum on this site. Well, go ahead. I suppose it's too much to expect an intelligent ATS discussion on this subject.

So, arguing that the Brains function is not purely a material function, that human behavior is not understood fully by the sciences. That to start rulling out things as myths based on a material understanding (and presenting real world examples where other factors can and have been shown to work) Is off topic?

Sounds more like the examples I presented don't jive with the Material answers to brain function, its never Black and White with the human brain Period.

BUT there are statistically proven behaviors, that can be measured, monitored and effected in such a way that would mimic what the op says can't happen.

It really is arguing semantics, just because a button doesn't exist to alter or control the brain, does not mean alternatives using conditioning and human nature do not exist.

Ill give an example, say im crazy, say I want to hurt people, but Say I didn't want to do it directly. There are statistically proven conditions I could follow, to create someone with a condition that would accomplish my goal.

AS I said, look at Manson as a bases for an example, to write him and his followers off as crazy is a simplistic narrative that hides some frightening things about human nature.

WE can be controlled and manipulated, free will is not so free, and I understand those concepts are frightening for some and hard to grasp.

reply to post by Astyanax


You know what is a neat trick? I have diffuse psychogenic amnesia. I can't even recall childhood birthdays or opening presents on Christmas day. But do you know what I've always remembered?

Jingles from the 70's. Couldn't remember learning to ride a bike but I could always remember the Slinky jingle...and the Oscar Meyer bologna song, the jingle for "Hungry Hungry Hippos", and much much more. I can also remember how to add, multiply, and do all sorts of other repetitive tasks. Repetition is amazing when it comes to conditioning. It even trumps diffuse dissociative amnesia.

I'm about to head out for an evening engagement. When I get back, I will catch up on the responses as well as post supporting data (actual research) to further show why it's simply not physiologically possible.

CIAGypsy
I'm about to head out for an evening engagement. When I get back, I will catch up on the responses as well as post supporting data (actual research) to further show why it's simply not physiologically possible.

Just as a head's up, I'm not likely to be impressed. While I do understand that you may be wanting to basically eliminate the question of whether so-so who did such a thing was a Manchurian Candidate and whatnot, I will say this: I'd rather have 100,000 people pondering whether or not someone has been affected by adverse psychological experimentation than even a dozen of people in the actual field dismissing it as impossible. The former is on guard for the possibility of abuse, the latter is permissive of it recurring again. Considering history, I'd rather that people are on guard and questioning in the hopes that history will not repeat itself.

Also, regardless of physiological possibility, it does not take away from the fact that it was attempted on an unknown (thanks to paper shredders) number of victims. I would much rather see you acknowledge that, yes, abuses had taken place that had immensely dramatic effects on the victims and their families. That, to me, would be a much more worthy cause and infinitely more respectful to the actual victims and their families of such programs.

reply to post by WhiteAlice

But do you know what I've always remembered? Jingles from the 70's.

Can you not also remember the hit songs of the Seventies? What about the TV theme tunes of the Seventies? The tune your alarm clock played to wake you up in the Seventies?

Music has a wonderful propensity for embedding itself in our memories. The artistic quality of the music doesn't matter — only its catchiness.

I can also remember how to add, multiply, and do all sorts of other repetitive tasks. Repetition is amazing when it comes to conditioning.

Indeed. And repetition is also one of the oldest tricks in the advertising book. Bit of a blunt instrument though, isn't it? Hardly MK-Ultra, more Joseph Göbbels.

*

reply to post by benrl

So, arguing that the Brains function is not purely a material function, that human behavior is not understood fully by the sciences. That to start rulling out things as myths based on a material understanding (and presenting real world examples where other factors can and have been shown to work) Is off topic?

It certainly is in this thread, just as going on about the relative size of all natural satellites in the Solar System would be off topic in a thread about the Moon. This is a specialised subject; you're trying to generalise it. Worse, you've succeeded.

Look at Manson as a bases for an example, to write him and his followers off as crazy is a simplistic narrative that hides some frightening things about human nature.

You appear to be quite a fan of Charles Manson. Alas, he, too, is irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

It seems that the definition of what is persuasion and what is mind control is open to interpretation. Their lies a fine line between persuasion and mind control. What they both have in common is both come from outside influences i.e. people, and or environment. Another common ground between persuasion and mind control is the intent of manipulation and doing someone else's will. I think in the case of persuasion it would be defined as a method of influence that is not aimed at a subconscious level. Once the line has been crossed and the target is the subconscious mind of the audience it now has become behavior modification which is a manipulation with intentions of mind control. The very idea of the subconscious as the target of a influences is proven to affect behavior and can be persuasive as well. Persuasive for one to modify ones behavior due to subconscious influences.

Okay, folks...a bit of a quick reply before going to bed (simply because I promised to reply! )

Let's focus for a moment simply on the physical mechanics that underlies these alleged "theories." They all follow some basis that the victim has some action, code, or memory implanted into their brain which makes the victim act contrary to their free will. Usually, they go further by saying that the victim has no memory of these "forced actions" that have been taken under some "alter personality." So let's take out all the fluff and look at the mechanics of what it takes to imprint something on the brain and then recall it because, unless you are proposing some new evolutionary method of the brain translating signal to action, any theory would be using the same process. It's the same process we commonly call "memory" as it would require the individual to recall a set of instructions that are to happen or the details of an incident that have happened.

So what happens physiologically in memory? Well, there are many parts of the brain that work together like a symphony to make "memory" happen. It is actually very complex. Think about a common episode like a conversation with a loved one. There are many parts of the brain that are utilized to create a memory -

visual perception - what they were wearing, what you were wearing, specific features of their face, what their hair looked like that day, etc...
auditory perception - the pitch and tone of voices, remembering the content of what was said
motor perception - how you were moving your body, etc...

Below is a picture of the brain and how it's various components are activated to make sense of different daily functions.



So imagine the complexity of hundreds of thousands of cells that capture signals and send them off to hippocampus which is essential in the translation of a short term memory to a long term one. As I said previously, the brain is NOT like a computer which has a set area for "storage." Memories are processed in the hippocampus but actually are stored in various components within the cerebral cortex. The cerebral cortex is the "gray matter" of cells that covers the "white matter" (dendrites, axons, etc...). Note - this ALONE is relatively new information as scientists previously believed that memory storage was tied solely to the hippocampus. (Long Term Memory Stored in the Cortex).

So given this process, how would you get the memory implanted to begin with? Well, conspiracy theorists seem fond of RF or microwaves. Without having any type of receiver or decoder, the brain wouldn't have any way to translate any signal it received. Even if you allow for some kind of implant, you would have to understand how to "mimic" the memory down to a very specific signature pattern which is NOT linear. I mentioned previously that I do work with brain-computer interfacing. Here is a study (not mine) in which I have taken noted interest that specifically deals with memories and implanted chips.

Memory Implants

In this study, Dr Berger does NOT have the capability to implant either a drawn out action or series of instructions....nor does he have the ability to implant memories which did not previously exist. Instead, he has developed a rudimentary way to "record" the non-linear patterns involved in memory processing which happen in the hippocampus. Then he applies various ways to dull or delete the ability to "recall" those memories. The breakthrough in his research is that he indicates he can use a computer chip to essentially fill the "recall" function of the hippocampus while bypassing the actual physical organ.

Be careful to note that this experiment is still in it's infancy and has only dealt with the small action of pressing a lever or acknowledging a picture.... Nothing so complex as a series of instructions which involve complicated action or a memory that is representative of such.

One other very important piece of information - everything I have lined out above is based upon a HEALTHY NORMAL BRAIN. Once you bring STRESS or TRAUMA into the picture (which often accompany claims of programming or mind control), then things get even sketchier on the physiological landscape. The brain's physical response to trauma and stress have been pretty well documented. Both, especially in a long term situation, degrade brain matter and the chemical receptors which allow normal functioning and signal processing. In short, adding extreme stressors is akin to throwing acid on your brain.

Stress results in acute and chronic changes in neurochemical systems and specific brain regions, which result in longterm changes in brain “circuits,” involved in the stress response. Brain regions that are felt to play an important role in PTSD include hippocampus, amygdala, and medial prefrontal cortex.

Preclinical and clinical studies have shown alterations in memory function following traumatic stress, as well as changes in a circuit of brain areas, including hippocampus, amygdala, and medial prefrontal cortex, that mediate alterations in memory. The hippocampus, a brain area involved in verbal declarative memory, is very sensitive to the effects of stress. Stress in animals is associated with damage to neurons in the CA3 region of the hippocampus (which may be mediated by hypercortisolemia, decreased brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), and/or elevated glutamate levels) and inhibition of neurogenesis. High levels of glucocorticoids seen with stress were also associated with deficits in new learning.

Lasting effects of trauma on the brain, showing long-term dysregulation of norepinephrine and Cortisol systems, and vulnerable areas of hippocampus, amygdala, and medial prefrontal cortex that are affected by trauma.

Traumatic stress: Effects on the brain

And now...and hour later....there you have it. I have tried not to get too deeply technical because it would probably lose a lot of people. But I have tried to show some level of the complexity involved in the encoding of information that happens in the brain on a physiological level. Arbitrarily "adding" such coding is a lot easier said than done. Even the rudimentary attempts to do this function TODAY happens only in a laboratory with rats and other animals where they can completely control the recording and playback of the signal processing. There is NO WAY POSSIBLE it could happen on a mass level to the tune of hundreds of thousands of people. The technology simply isn't there because the brain is still so unknown....nor are there enough SCIENTISTS/DOCTORS who are truly knowledgeable in this specific area of neurobiology to pull off such a feat across a population, let alone for MULTIPLE generations.

reply to post by Astyanax


Actually, I don't. I can't tell you a single show that I watched as a kid outside of Warner Bros cartoons. That's it. Not a single show outside of that. We're talking total black hole memory and I'm not kidding. Only those jingles sure bubble up now and then. Additionally, music has not been as effective as you would think to "stir up memories". If it had, well, I would've been remembering things 30 years ago and spared myself the agony of being a person with no root for all those decades. It's not the music. It's the repetition and the tune. I can sing the Star Spangled Banner or America the Beautiful but that's persistent childhood repetition, too.

However, the jingle thing is actually the reason why, long before having a degree in Business Administration, I limited the amount of television and commercial exposure for my children. The difference between them and other children is pretty remarkable. They are pretty practical kids who look at the value of something for what it is and its price. That's how they make their consumer decisions. They don't base it on whether or not it's an Apple product or anything else. Zero brand loyalty. That's got to chafe somebody in marketing a bit. And they'll never have it. I've raised my children well. Now, comparing them to say one of my daughter's classmates who thought that the "end of the year" classroom party should be for Apple products only, which one is the odd one? My children. I know this because I get parents commenting on how normal and bright my kids are and asking me what I did different in raising them. Only difference every time has been no television commercials. Now, guess what those mothers are doing? That's right. No more commercials.

After I had to take marketing for my degree, I realized that I was a quite smart parent to limit my childrens' exposure to commercial advertising. You see, I do know that they employ child psychologists to make all their little ads. I think that's pretty distasteful. Child psychologists plus the use of repetition--that's a heck of a blunt instrument and do you mean more along the lines of Bernays?

tremor...double post.

reply to post by WhiteAlice

I am not making any more posts on this thread that do not directly address the topic. I'm up for discussing that other stuff, though, if you will start a thread of your own and u2u me. Same goes for benri.

reply to post by CIAGypsy


Here's a question. Most people know that the brain generates electricity. A common belief among those who believe in 'mind control' (and particularly among paranoid schizophrenics) is that this electrical activity can somehow be modified by radio waves of some other form of electromagnetic interference.

Many people take this idea very seriously; it is an important element in their mental-health issues. Others take it less seriously, but give it credence nonetheless. Even a scientifically erudite author like Neal Stephenson made a variation on this trope the subject of a novel, Snow Crash. That book is science fiction, but Stephenson is famous for larding his science fiction with science fact.

So: do you have any idea why this 'mind control by radio waves' idea is so popular? And could it possibly contain some grain of truth?

reply to post by CIAGypsy


A few comments on your post. One, it appears that you are directly targeting the Monarch conspiracy theory and using it to basically wash all mind control conspiracy theories under the same brush. I agree that the Monarch theory is seriously dubious at best. The only logical that I can see about it is the possibility that there is something perhaps going on in a generational manner. If you have a family that was willing to participate in MK-ULTRA, then it's likely that that same family's shoddy values will be the same enough to continue it. Basically, a cycle of abuse but with a twist. I've looked at the Monarch theory and I simply don't buy it, especially this concept of "alters".

As I've mentioned before, I have disassociative disorder. Whereas I cannot for sure state that I do, in fact, have an alter, the level of my memory loss, the existence of fugue, and a life long sense of a hidden child within have been the course of my life. I've lost some time (outside of the massive chunk). However, when in a physical threat situation, I do not "leave". However, in the case of severe emotional threat, my voice apparently becomes very child like and distressed immediately preceding a loss of consciousness. Note that this potential "alter" is a child and, in fact, if I were to describe this potential "inner child", I'd say that the predominant emotion would be "scared witless". I can very safely say that, as a victim of extraordinary childhood abuse, that there is no way that such an alter could be useful as claimed by Monarch theories. Why the hell would anyone ever want a terrified lamb as a potential super soldier?

When I have seen microwaves frequencies being alleged as used, it's not so much as to "program" an individual for a specific set of actions. On the contrary, the most curious purported instances that I have seen has been in the case of harassment. Perhaps I've not seen all the chip planted in the brain threads out there but electronic harassment is one I most commonly see associated with RF or microwave frequencies. Not direct mind control.

As someone who has longstanding PTSD (since childhood is the assumption made at diagnosis due to dissociative disorder), I am poignantly aware of the effects of PTSD on the brain. While it absolutely does alter the physiology of the brain, I have never once heard any one of my doctors, including neurologists, equate it to having thrown "acid" onto my brain. Instead, they described it as my brain essentially being rewired and my corpus callosum being somewhat degraded. This is uite possibly why I can write or draw two different things with each of my hands, concurrently and independently. All if I have to do is tell my left hand that "you will write this" and "i'll write that". It's like magic.

Equating PTSD effects on physiology to "acid being thrown on the brain" makes it seem like it is not a targeted change that attempts to assure survival. It is the brain's ultimate protective mechanism in which it response to extreme stress in ways that survive it. Even that degradation of the corpus callosum is suspected to be a protective move as early traumatic experience has been shown to affect the right side of the brain. Overall, the question that I've seen asked by many researchers on the subject (and I'm personally interested in this) is whether or not it's actually useful. I'm incredible in a crisis situation because of my specific combination of hyperarousal and desensitization.

You mention the amygdala as being effected by PTSD but you do not mention how it is affected. What occurs is that the right prefrontal cortex basically is no longer able to regulate the amygdala. In response, the right amygdala, which is used in facial recognition of threat, is turned on in overdrive. This is hyperarousal. As someone with this issue, how it functions is that, when I am out and about, I'm constantly attuned to the activities of everyone in my environs and am actively measuring potential threat. This seems awfully paranoid but, as several psychologists have told me, it's merely the way that my brain is trying to protect me from further trauma and can be useful. Again, it's focused as I am completely able to discern between real threat and non-threat. The only time I basically key into the next state is when a threat is real. This has actually served me very, very well historically in terms of self defense as I am already in the "ready" mental state. Basically, put you and I into a life and death situation and we'll see who makes it out alive.

Oddly enough, desensitization is something that the military and the various law enforcement agencies are hoping to emulate. As I mentioned before, severe emotional distress creates a "knock out" effect in me. However, in the case of real physical threat, I'm efficient and detached. I was able to completely subdue (martial arts knowledge) a physically abusive ex-husband rapidly and with the minimum of force without a single thought. Unlike a terrified lamb, that would be interesting to the military. A way to shut off thought and emotion in a life threatening situation. Interesting article on the subject from the San Francisco Gate: www.sfgate.com...-1

While one can look at something from the base physiological perspective, how it actually plays out psychologically can be a completely different view. Note that they are not using microwaves or anything high tech such as that (though forced viewing of violent imagery has been mentioned elsewhere). They use conditioning. In fact, in every circumstance where behavioral modification has been effective has been through the basic process of conditioning. Thanks, Pavlov.

This is where I have a real problem with completely dismissing "mind control" as being a pile of rubbish on claims about what we know about brain physiology. There is still, as yet, more that we do not comprehend about the brain and there has been at least a century in which the field of psychology has been toying with human behavioral responses. We know that we can be conditioned. We know that repetition assists lifelong recollection (cue Slinky jingle). We know that indoctrination exists or that, when pushed a certain way, a person may become depersonalized. This is the true playground of behavioral modification and what MK-ULTRA was about. To this day, psychologists are still toying with the ideas behind MK-ULTRA including looking for drugs to assist better acceptance of post-hypnotic suggestion (ie: www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk...)

Just because you're a neuroscientist does not necessarily equate to fully comprehending all the often idiosyncratic nature of the human mind. In a way, it's like expecting a cardiologist to explain why our hearts hurt when we experience a heartbreak. You may understand the areas where the brain is physiologically affected in a patient with PTSD but that doesn't mean you necessarily comprehend how it is expressed. Like I said, you think it's like acid. It's far more directed than that.

reply to post by Astyanax


You were the one suggesting that it was simply the music and launched a premise that you thought would explain the Jingle Phenomena within me. I find it interesting that, when proven wrong, you want to stop that part of the discussion because it has everything to do with marketing and conditioning through repetition.

The subject matter of this thread is, according to the OP, "mind control". According to the most well known and actual "mind control" program, MK-ULTRA, even it lists "behavioral modification" within its own title. The definition of behavior modification is "the direct changing of unwanted behavior by means of biofeedback or conditioning". Source: dictionary.reference.com...

Now, that's the standard psychology book definition as using behavioral modification for the elimination of an undesirable behavior is most likely a good thing. What is deemed as "unwanted behavior" could actually be considered to be highly subjective. Unwanted behavior could also be construed as buying another company's brand of soft drink or telling all of the state secrets one possesses to an enemy combatant. They are all technically one and the same. Behavioral modification, as defined by the CIA and the Senate themselves, is "mind control".

reply to post by WhiteAlice


Some good questions.... I only had a moment to pipe in this afternoon and I wanted to quickly clarify something. There seems to be some confusion about the intent of the topic. The topic is "Conspiracies built upon brain myths." In the OP, I specifically mention "mind control, programming, and Manchurian Candidates." I thought I had clarified my meaning in this post -

www.abovetopsecret.com...

However, since it seems to still be in question, let me re-clarify. I do not argue, nor do I deny, that it is possible to persuade an individual through suggestibility - both consciously and subconsciously. This type of "mind control" is known as Psyops and there is a mountain load of documentation on it's use, including MK Ultra and beyond. However, psyops does not fall under the category of science built on brain myths. What I am referring to there, specifically, is this garbage and others like it:

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

Outside of the above, Astyanax and WhiteAlice have asked some very good questions that I intend to respond to in regards to radio wave programming, the amygdala, and some other things when I get home later this evening.

Thank you...all of you....who have taken the time to respond and pay attention to this thread. I understand that it can be an emotional subject and trigger passionate feelings.