The Problem with 'Honesty' - Part 1 - Defining the Problem

I was told that this was the place for this post; if it is not please
move it to a more appropriate place.

Since my first conscious thoughts I've noticed that nearly everyone
lies all the time; both to others and to themselves.

This used to baffle me more than I can express.

I think I was 6 or 8 and I was scratching my head about nearly
everything I saw on the new; in particular I saw the problem
with peak oil as a symptom that our technological society
was on unsure footing.

I saw my mother lie to my father; my father lie to my mother.
I determined that if a person was breathing they were probably
lying.

Now with much research, I came to learn that humans are social
animals, and that a humans place in society, how they are viewed,
etc. are of paramount importance to them, and that from an
evolutionary standpoint, the invention of lying made sense.

In short, in their very bones, humans seem to feel that lying is
a necessary part of life; in fact it is lying that makes human
society run; makes it possible.

Now what I call "lying" others call 'social skills' or 'their public
face' or 'the way of the world', etc. At the very least lying
is seen to be a necessary evil which humans can't live
without.

Now I get this. When one's wife asks if she looks fat, the pure,
unadulterated truth is probably contra-indicated. When the
boss asks you if you are screwing off on the Internet, I suspect
that most don't say what I say, which is "Yup! You caught me
big guy!".

The popular belief seems to be that society would implode if
everyone told the truth all the time.

Now I've also been utterly fascinated by the amount of lying
that people do 'in their inner worlds'.

Various concepts get implanted in people's brains. Call them
memes. These memes or 'social viruses' are a double-edged
sword. On the one hand, they are like bits of precompiled
computer code, which various brains have developed over
the years or the millennia.

Memes have evolved via a process like Darwinian evolution
to fit into pre-existing 'hooks' or 'vulnerabilities' in the
human mind. Otherwise they wouldn't 'stick'. Examples
of vulnerabilities are the fear of death, the fear of being
alone, the fear of being rejected, the desire to be loved,
the desire to be accepted. These are just a few.

Memes provide positive benefits; just take any of the
vulnerabilities listed in the previous paragraph, and
memes provide a 'sugar pill' to make all of those
things more palatable.

Now the real problem with memes, is the ones which
get embedded in the very young, when the child is
defenseless. These memes become a part of the core
cognitive equipment of the child; part of the core
sense of self. For example a person raised with the
Muslim meme or the Scientology meme, or the
Materialist meme (strictly speaking these are
meme-plexes (groups of memes that work well
in concert) and not just simple memes) have
close to zero chance of escaping these meme
complexes. They would have to rip the heart
of their chests, the 'soul' out of their mind.
It all-but can't be done.

So we have these huge chunks of ancient computer
code, taking human brains prisoner. These meme
collectives don't care if they blow up the world.
They only care that they exist.

Now proponents of memes disagree that there is
a true neo-Darwinian synthesis with memes, that
in fact a basic heritable unit of meme information
(a meme gene so to speak) exists, and thus meme
theory is just pseudo-science.

I disagree.

In my observation there IS such a unit. Now that
is a subject for another post. I just want to make
the point that the world may seen through the
lens of memes and meme prisoners.

Due to being prisoners of memes and meme complexes,
humans may well destroy themselves, as they live like
the puppets that they really are.

Now I could bring in metaphysics and literally a book's
worth of material to further define and prove my point.
But that might be pointless.

The folks who most need to understand that they are
prisoners, are the ones who cannot possibly free
themselves.

I think it's fair to say that the people who DO understand
the gist of what I'm discussing dress it up in metaphysics
or whatever, but would in fact be open to discussing
"the problem" using the meme paradigm.

In short, I would like to summarize.

Humans in their current form, probably wouldn't even
exist, if it were not for memes. Human minds are not
evolved enough to function without memes. And in
fact, it is memes which have made those chimps from
the south of Africa, "human".

However the very 'blessing' which has made us human,
has also put a 'kill switch' into the human race.

Humans have evolved under their meme overlords nearly
as far as they can without destroying themselves.

Just like with genes, neo-Darwinian evolution does not
'look forward'. A gene or cluster of genes which provide
a positive survival trait, often includes negative traits,
which will eventually kill the host body (us and other
life based on DNA).

Fortunately in most cases, these negative gene traits
are 'pushed off to older age' after breeding and child-
rearing have already been accomplishes; so the individual
can afford to die, without destroying society.

In a like manner, memes have functioned in a similar
manner. However in the case of memes, the negative
effects do not 'kick in' later in the life of an individual,
but later in the life of a civilization.

We are now experiencing the 'payback' for those positive
memes with negative traits associated.

The Armageddon scripts currently running in the world
are the payback. The negative effects of society and
technology are now in the payback phase.

I'd like anyone with a decent IQ and some measure of
freedom to think hard about what I'm saying here.
I am unaware of anyone putting things in this manner
on the Internet before. I've known these things for
more than 20 years. I can't be the only one who
appreciates this descriptive narrative.

So I'll close this first post here. I believe that I have
defined the problem with something approaching
clarity. If not, questions are very welcome.

KPB

Even if you do not like lying you are forced to lie or to omit what you really feel in order to live in any society peacefully. But a good friend should tell you the truth if you are messing up or disillusioned if the friendship is real. Letting someone believe they are on the right path when it is evident they aren't is not good, but the problem is that we need to do it in a subtle way. That takes a lot of thinking. And forget this if you are married, it never works.

Some people like being dishonest and tricking others into doing things so they can justify their own actions. This is very evident in America. You can't challenge your friend if he talked you into doing things are bad. Others believe they are allowed to deceive others because of their position in society. Seems that the prestigious get away with bigger crimes. Others often repeat lies, thinking that these lies are the truth. People will believe people with good confidence and a certificate without questioning if the evidence actually applies.

S&F

When you posted this...

I've been looking for a forum on ATS for people who have positive suggestions that
could make a difference.

I thought you meant suggestions to improve the site, or add a feature. My mistake. The two big posts you made should go some place like general chit-chat, or religious, or whatever the mods think.

Klassified
When you posted this...

I've been looking for a forum on ATS for people who have positive suggestions that
could make a difference.

I thought you meant suggestions to improve the site, or add a feature. My mistake. The two big posts you made should go some place like general chit-chat, or religious, or whatever the mods think.

Yes, I was puzzled as well by your suggestion.

I'm basically promoting that 'honesty pays' and can be
made extremely powerful.. and couldn't find a good
forum for that.. I did initially consider putting it where
it was moved by a moderator -- general conspiracies,
just because our world is so crapped up, that being
serious about being honest amounts to a conspiracy!
How very very sad.

KPB

I have came up with three ways that people deceive themselves.

They lie because they hate to be wrong. This is the worse of the reasons. It is about ego.

People lie because they intend to deceive. Remember that anything you say can and will be used against you, and lying is necessary sometimes simply to defend oneself or others.

People lie because they refuse to believe what they are told, it is too far outside of their comfort zone. I think this area would be the memes you write about.

It's a subject that's definitively worth a look.

I wonder sociologically if we can find examples of humans where lying is not practiced. Sure, subcultures, like Monks, are sworn to a virtuous life.

My guess is that cultures "less-touched" by Western ideas may tend to limit lying. I believe is could be subdivided into private and public lying. I mean, I'd never lie to my wife, and probably not my best friends either....but to some Dick or Chudbrain, I'll say whatever gets me thru the day.

My wild guess of native cultures which might be lie-less would include ones like Inuit, Native American, Ancient Asian, Pacific Islander...

FlyingFox
It's a subject that's definitively worth a look.

I wonder sociologically if we can find examples of humans where lying is not practiced. Sure, subcultures, like Monks, are sworn to a virtuous life.

My guess is that cultures "less-touched" by Western ideas may tend to limit lying. I believe is could be subdivided into private and public lying. I mean, I'd never lie to my wife, and probably not my best friends either....but to some Dick or Chudbrain, I'll say whatever gets me thru the day.

My wild guess of native cultures which might be lie-less would include ones like Inuit, Native American, Ancient Asian, Pacific Islander...

edit on 30-10-2013 by FlyingFox because: (no reason given)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but lying seems to be epidemic in our western
culture; now yes, I've beaten this to death in my life, but what
are called 'soft skills', 'people skills', 'social skills', 'marketing',
'sales', 'politics', 'xxxxxxxx' and various other labels are just
labels for lying..

Lying is so acceptable on a daily basis, that our leaders (politicians
and other people in leadership positions) feel that they have a
blank check to lie.. because 'everyone lies'.

If average people make any form of lying absolutely unacceptable..
then it wouldn't be long before our leaders would be forced to be
honest too.

So simple a child can understand the idea.

But I guess we want the world the way it is.. liars deceiving us
left and right.. government absolutely raping us in the USA..
because we want to retain the right to lie ourselves..

I feel like I'm from another planet that this has been painfully
obvious to me since I was a child...but it's not obvious to
anyone else?

Really?

Really?

KPB

I am willing to take this trip with you. but you forgot something which you perhaps think is obvious or assumed...

.... what is wrong with lying? in the strictest sense, the very act of a material body perpetuating itself into the future requires an 'identity'. this identity makes the superficial claim that it is not where it is (or is where it is not). thus, the movement of a physical form in spacetime necessitates the simultaneous superposition of two or more mutually exclusive states.

in other words, the physical form is a (very convincing) lie.... one from which you cannot claim exemption by assuming the pretense of someone who is a stranger to this planet.

unless you are a stranger to physical reality in general.


...but the 'selfish meme' part is pretty great.

Perhaps your view on meme motivation is correct, or in some cases, correct. I tend to see differently-
their survival depends upon their utility- an dnot necessarily in "soothing fears". They are also essential in creativity- in creating experiences.

-The thoughts and ideas you adopt or hold form your personal perception.
-Your personal perception influences your acts, behaviors, reactions and responses to the exterior events and others
-Your behaviors and actions influence the reactions and behaviors of others around you (both on a conscious and subconscious level)
-These, combined together, create context and events in the exterior world, for us to experience.

In terms of choosing future experience for yourself then, what is really happening right now can sometimes become less important than what you choose to happen next.

for example, the person who lies to the boss abotu goofing off on internet-
(I have had such experiences)
Usually, on a deep level, the boss knows the employee is lying,
And the employee knows he knows he is lying.
But the understood concept between them is that
The goofing off needs to stop.
There is an unstated agreement here- I will pretend I don't know,
If you do what I want, the boss "says".
I'll do what you want, if you don't punish me for what I did before, the employee "says"
The smile, the nod, the wink of the eye, all serve as the covert handshake.

This can be quite efficient if everyone holds up their part of the deal.
I sometimes prefer this kidn fo relation with my superiors because it shows that what is important to them is that the work be done correctly- not that they get obvious and public proof of their power role to stroke their ego.

Where all these memes meant to create future events become a problem is when the event has been created, but out of habit, the person continues to hold the meme- when it is no longer utile. Like a coping mechnism that one continues to apply, when it is no longer necessary to circumstances. Or one is so focused on the inner dream that they fail to acknowledge that it has already happened, and they don't appreciate the very situation they meant to create.

tgidkp
I am willing to take this trip with you. but you forgot something which you perhaps think is obvious or assumed...

.... what is wrong with lying? in the strictest sense, the very act of a material body perpetuating itself into the future requires an 'identity'. this identity makes the superficial claim that it is not where it is (or is where it is not). thus, the movement of a physical form in spacetime necessitates the simultaneous superposition of two or more mutually exclusive states.

in other words, the physical form is a (very convincing) lie.... one from which you cannot claim exemption by assuming the pretense of someone who is a stranger to this planet.

unless you are a stranger to physical reality in general.


...but the 'selfish meme' part is pretty great.

Im thoroughly familiar with the utility and evolutionary purpose of lying. Without lying human culture would not have evolved. Without culture the human race would have gone extinct.

But.

We are now facing extinction due to memes. Time for a course correction.

If we become truly honest in a new way, this will topple corruption and social injustice.

No million man marches or donating money required.

Lazy americans doing almost nothing.in fact less than nothing..(lying is hard work)...would topple all that hinders...fix politics...fix economics..fix the self..

KPB

Lying is not restricted to Western culture, or even more prevalent.

From my experience, just the opposite is true. Eastern cultures will say anything to get their way.

It is also my perception that the rate of dishonesty has increased massively over the last half a century, at least in the U.S.. Corporations will tell you anything. There has been a complete break down of integrity. Lying has become the model for success.

poet1b

Lying is not restricted to Western culture, or even more prevalent.

From my experience, just the opposite is true. Eastern cultures will say anything to get their way.

It is also my perception that the rate of dishonesty has increased massively over the last half a century, at least in the U.S.. Corporations will tell you anything. There has been a complete break down of integrity. Lying has become the model for success.

And will be the death of us.

The total acceptance of lying to ourselves and to others and our government lying to us (we have even coined a technical term for it - politics) will literally be the death of us.

Thanks for your insight.

KPB