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The immorality of abortion

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posted on Oct, 26 2013 @ 01:00 PM
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How many unwanted kids are there waiting for adoption? how much would all the extra babies cost the state?
Tell you what all you people who are anti abortion adopt some kids and when there are no unwanted kids you have earn't the right to tell people to stop having abortions.




posted on Oct, 26 2013 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by beegoodbees
 





If legal killing isn't murder than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were not murderers because the millions killed were done so legally according to their laws.


Correct, in their countries, it was legal. By international law, it was not. Furthermore, the idea that abortion is similar in any way to genocide committed by tyrants is sensationalism at its best.




Murder is an unjustified killing. If we leave it to legality than murder has no real meaning at all because laws can be made and changed arbitrarily.
So, killing a cow is murder?

See, the problem is, all you are trying to do is find a loophole in which your religious view supersedes the real world. But it doesnt work that way.




. It is never justifiable to kill innocence.
Again, does that mean it is not justifiable to kill a cow?



posted on Oct, 26 2013 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by coldkidc
 


A pretty glaring anomaly in your countries law, and a bit dumb. In the UK you can not murder an unborn fetus. If the fetus survives, is born then dies then can be.



posted on Oct, 26 2013 @ 06:35 PM
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coldkidc
Indeed...

I've also pondered the confusion of the laws that address killing a pregnant woman's baby against her will & prosecuting it as murder - But then if she chooses to do it not only is it no longer murder but it's legal.

How can it be suggested that murder is simply defined by who does the killing?

ETA: What the HELL is going on with your star count man? 738,010 stars in 1629 posts???
edit on 19-10-2013 by coldkidc because: (no reason given)




If a woman has decided to carry a pregnancy to full term, she has made a

conscious decision to protect 'that within her' which cannot survive without her.

She has mentally committed for the use of her body to the nurturing and

protection to that within her, which without her cannot survive.


Therefor anyone else interfering with that process without her permission or

knowledge
is committing a felony (assault and battery) against 'her' person resulting

in, the denial of a potential life which she was protecting!



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 01:27 AM
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captaintyinknots
reply to post by beegoodbees
 




Why are you bringing religion into this? I am not a religious person. Please point out said hypocrisy.

I didnt bring religion into it. You did:



One thing about God that is appealing to good people is that he punishes evil. We know that all of the terrible things that you find so tantrum like is going to happen to all of the evil doers in do time.




God gave us free will because he wants us to do what is right because we want to. If God wanted robots he would have probably built robots instead of sentient beings able to discern right and wrong and hopefully do what is right.





Because we are expected to stand up for the rights of the innocent and not just say as many do "it's not my fight, God will take care of it" God instructs us to do what is right, not look away and wait for someone else to do it.





I suppose all of the ancient cultures of the earth with their accounts of God and the fallen ones (Israelite, Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Sumerian) were all living in a computer simulation.





You are right, religion is a tool for control but God is not. Once you realize that the two not one in the same, many possibilities open up. You are also right about the ot and nt and that is why I am no longer a Christian. That deos not take value away from God as he had nothing to do with the nt and some of the ot. We have to remember that the bible is compilation of books sewn together by the roman catholic church in order to control the serfs. That does not mean that all of the books of the bible are false or fabricated.





God gave moses the law, not just ten commandments. The law is pretty thorough. God is not a tool of fear. The imagined torture for all eternity in hellfire is the tool used for fear. God never says in the bible that sinners go to hell for all eternity. This was invented by the roman catholics as means of control. Granted humans often use religion and God as a reason (at least to feed to the people) for war and atrocities. Hey, I won't fault you for your beliefs just like I won't fault myself for my past beliefs however I do feel compelled to get my viewpoint out there.


Did you forget that all of these are direct quotes of yours, or are you trolling?


You must have missed the part where I explained that religion and God are not interchangeable (or was that a different thread?). God made man and man made religion in order to control other men.



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 01:31 AM
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boymonkey74
How many unwanted kids are there waiting for adoption? how much would all the extra babies cost the state?
Tell you what all you people who are anti abortion adopt some kids and when there are no unwanted kids you have earn't the right to tell people to stop having abortions.


If you don't want babies, Don't have sex. Making babies is the purpose of sex.. Sure sex feels good but it feels good in order to encourage us to have babies and keep our race alive.



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 01:40 AM
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captaintyinknots
reply to post by beegoodbees
 





If legal killing isn't murder than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were not murderers because the millions killed were done so legally according to their laws.


Correct, in their countries, it was legal. By international law, it was not. Furthermore, the idea that abortion is similar in any way to genocide committed by tyrants is sensationalism at its best.





I do believe you are intentionally missing the point because you do not like the implications. By the way, I think that most of the murderers I mentioned were before any international laws existed. Either way by your standards some laws are valid and some aren't. So when abortion was illegal in the US was it murder then but now it's not? You do understand that you make no sense right?

Wait, I think I understand. If the law agrees with you then it's ok but if it disagrees with you it is invalid right? We should have you make all of the laws from now on just to make sure there are no misunderstandings right?
Murder is an unjustified killing. If we leave it to legality than murder has no real meaning at all because laws can be made and changed arbitrarily.
So, killing a cow is murder?

See, the problem is, all you are trying to do is find a loophole in which your religious view supersedes the real world. But it doesnt work that way.




. It is never justifiable to kill innocence.
Again, does that mean it is not justifiable to kill a cow?




posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 01:49 AM
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I do believe you are intentionally missing the point because you do not like the implications. By the way, I think that most of the murderers I mentioned were before any international laws existed. Either way by your standards some laws are valid and some aren't. So when abortion was illegal in the US was it murder then but now it's not? You do understand that you make no sense right?

Wait, I think I understand. If the law agrees with you then it's ok but if it disagrees with you it is invalid right? We should have you make all of the laws from now on just to make sure there are no misunderstandings right?


Seriously cows? Now you are trying to change the subject because you can't justify your stance on the present subject. WEAK!
edit on 27-10-2013 by beegoodbees because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 02:37 AM
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Just something I feel I need to add in regards to the allegations that abortion is murder; Since I'm currently studying criminal law, I thought it is worth including s. 269 CCWA:


s. 269 When a child becomes a human being
A child becomes a person capable of being killed when it has
completely proceeded in a living state from the body of its
mother
, whether it has breathed or not, and whether it has an
independent circulation or not, and whether the navel-string is
severed or not.


What this means (within my jurisdiction), is that a "child" is not a "human being" until it is born.

I don't really care to debate philosophy/theology when it comes to abortion, as the law is pretty black and white on the matter: ABORTION IS NOT MURDER.



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 04:14 AM
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cartenz
Just something I feel I need to add in regards to the allegations that abortion is murder; Since I'm currently studying criminal law, I thought it is worth including s. 269 CCWA:


s. 269 When a child becomes a human being
A child becomes a person capable of being killed when it has
completely proceeded in a living state from the body of its
mother
, whether it has breathed or not, and whether it has an
independent circulation or not, and whether the navel-string is
severed or not.


What this means (within my jurisdiction), is that a "child" is not a "human being" until it is born.

I don't really care to debate philosophy/theology when it comes to abortion, as the law is pretty black and white on the matter: ABORTION IS NOT MURDER.


Unless it is illegal right? So when it was illegal, was it murder then but not now? What if a law is passed that says it is legal to kill you? When you are then killed legally is that not murder?



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 04:46 AM
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Abortion may be legal,
But I think the laws regarding :
Time traveling duress and abortion, would come under review
if the OPs proposition were plausible.

Mind you, many laws(not just legal) would need some re-thinkiing



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 06:45 AM
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beegoodbees

cartenz
Just something I feel I need to add in regards to the allegations that abortion is murder; Since I'm currently studying criminal law, I thought it is worth including s. 269 CCWA:


s. 269 When a child becomes a human being
A child becomes a person capable of being killed when it has
completely proceeded in a living state from the body of its
mother
, whether it has breathed or not, and whether it has an
independent circulation or not, and whether the navel-string is
severed or not.


What this means (within my jurisdiction), is that a "child" is not a "human being" until it is born.

I don't really care to debate philosophy/theology when it comes to abortion, as the law is pretty black and white on the matter: ABORTION IS NOT MURDER.


Unless it is illegal right? So when it was illegal, was it murder then but not now?

No, even if abortion is legislated against (illegal) it is not murder (under the legal definition presented), because that is the definition of "When a child becomes a human being", a "person" that can be killed. What you are suggesting is that the abortion is illegal, the embryo is still not a legal person.


What if a law is passed that says it is legal to kill you? When you are then killed legally is that not murder?

Laws that are made to target a person or a particular group do exist, in the case that I may (again) be the target of persecutory legislation, extrinsic to the constitutionally defined checks and balances that exist to prevent such, I would not only do my up-most to stop you from executing/enforcing that law; I would also challenge the validity of said law through the aforementioned "checks and balances" that my constitution provides.

Now, to elaborate further on that; Should it be the case that legislation exist that enable me to kill you--do you think I am one to go about executing/enforcing that law or do you think I would be one to challenge it?

The law, by nature, is progressive. Deal with it.



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 02:38 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


How many abortion-clinic picketers have adopted a child? It's really easy and ego-satisfying to point fingers. It takes more effort to help solve the problem.



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by beegoodbees
 





You must have missed the part where I explained that religion and God are not interchangeable (or was that a different thread?). God made man and man made religion in order to control other men.
Again you try and change definitions to fit what you believe. The belief that god made man is a religious belief.



posted on Oct, 27 2013 @ 11:15 PM
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reply to post by beegoodbees
 





Seriously cows? Now you are trying to change the subject because you can't justify your stance on the present subject. WEAK!
you said murder is the killing of innocence. How does a cow NOT fit that?



posted on Oct, 28 2013 @ 09:49 AM
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beegoodbees

CaptainHook

beegoodbees
reply to post by technical difficulties
 


No the unborn child's rights do not out-way those of anyone else. The child's rights are the same as anyone else s. Such as the right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness. No one has the right to murder! No matter how small or helpless or voiceless the life is. Murder is murder.

I saw an interesting post on face book, it went like this. If you have an abortion you are still a mother. you are just the mother of a dead baby that you murdered.

Sounds right to me.

edit on 22-10-2013 by beegoodbees because: (no reason given)


Fetus don't have rights because:
1. It doesn't have freedom to pursuit of happiness. (it's forced to be born and aborted. It doesn't give a say what the fetus wants).
2. You can't protect a fetus life without infringing women rights (consquence isn't a consent to another to override a body).
3. It doesn't exist in our world, only inside a womb.
4. It's basically like a parasite (pardon for my bluntness).
5. If the fetus were to have rights, then the fetus would be violating a women body. Therefore, the women has a right to defend herself against a fetus by law. Since no one can just take a body for it's own survive without a consent. Even if, the fetus dies in the end.

Murder: illegally killing.
Abortion is legal so, it can't be murder based on the legal standard. All you're doing is killing a fetus, not murdering a fetus.
edit on 24-10-2013 by CaptainHook because: (no reason given)


So Hitler Mao and Stalin Killed countless millions legally (according to their "laws"). Was that not murder.
Murder (I don't care what google says in this matter) is the killing of innocence. Legal or not.


Two separate meaning of murder. One is based in opinion and the other is based on legal.

Mother is innocent as well but you clearly would prefer to kill a mother and take away the mother rights (just like how Hitler took away all those jew rights, and killed them because they were condemn bad people) away all based on "fetus is so innocent" New flash. Fetus don't care if they're aborted nor do they suffer from abortion. Focus on children who actually are suffering, not cells (referring to early pregnancy). All abortion is doing is prevent a cell to live as a human(hood), not killing/murdering a human(hood).
edit on 28-10-2013 by CaptainHook because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2013 @ 09:57 AM
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beegoodbees

CaptainHook

beegoodbees
reply to post by technical difficulties
 


No the unborn child's rights do not out-way those of anyone else. The child's rights are the same as anyone else s. Such as the right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness. No one has the right to murder! No matter how small or helpless or voiceless the life is. Murder is murder.

I saw an interesting post on face book, it went like this. If you have an abortion you are still a mother. you are just the mother of a dead baby that you murdered.

Sounds right to me.

edit on 22-10-2013 by beegoodbees because: (no reason given)


Fetus don't have rights because:
1. It doesn't have freedom to pursuit of happiness. (it's forced to be born and aborted. It doesn't give a say what the fetus wants).
2. You can't protect a fetus life without infringing women rights (consquence isn't a consent to another to override a body).
3. It doesn't exist in our world, only inside a womb.
4. It's basically like a parasite (pardon for my bluntness).
5. If the fetus were to have rights, then the fetus would be violating a women body. Therefore, the women has a right to defend herself against a fetus by law. Since no one can just take a body for it's own survive without a consent. Even if, the fetus dies in the end.

Murder: illegally killing.
Abortion is legal so, it can't be murder based on the legal standard. All you're doing is killing a fetus, not murdering a fetus.
edit on 24-10-2013 by CaptainHook because: (no reason given)


You think a fetus is a parasite! you had better hope that we never meet, because I am going to give you all of the "love" that you deserve you former parasite.


Doesn't not a fetus forcing women to give the fetus food? doesn't it not attached itself inside a organ? See my point. Their is several meanings to the word parasite. People need to stop using parasite as a negative thing. (ever heard of parasitic twin?)
-person who take advantage over someone or thing.
-to use a host for food, and shelter.

We are all one. We are parasites of earth. Earth is our host and we take what we want and give nothing back.



posted on Oct, 28 2013 @ 10:01 AM
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beegoodbees

CaptainHook

beegoodbees
reply to post by technical difficulties
 


No the unborn child's rights do not out-way those of anyone else. The child's rights are the same as anyone else s. Such as the right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness. No one has the right to murder! No matter how small or helpless or voiceless the life is. Murder is murder.

I saw an interesting post on face book, it went like this. If you have an abortion you are still a mother. you are just the mother of a dead baby that you murdered.

Sounds right to me.

edit on 22-10-2013 by beegoodbees because: (no reason given)


Fetus don't have rights because:
1. It doesn't have freedom to pursuit of happiness. (it's forced to be born and aborted. It doesn't give a say what the fetus wants).
2. You can't protect a fetus life without infringing women rights (consquence isn't a consent to another to override a body).
3. It doesn't exist in our world, only inside a womb.
4. It's basically like a parasite (pardon for my bluntness).
5. If the fetus were to have rights, then the fetus would be violating a women body. Therefore, the women has a right to defend herself against a fetus by law. Since no one can just take a body for it's own survive without a consent. Even if, the fetus dies in the end.

Murder: illegally killing.
Abortion is legal so, it can't be murder based on the legal standard. All you're doing is killing a fetus, not murdering a fetus.
edit on 24-10-2013 by CaptainHook because: (no reason given)


So according to you a womans womb is not part of this world. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The law doesn't see a fetus in existence as you and me. It's only existence is inside a womb, even then their is no existence if the fetus is "human(hood)". Fetus/Embryos are cells forming into a human(hood) infant. But it's not yet there.



posted on Oct, 28 2013 @ 10:05 AM
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beegoodbees
reply to post by CaptainHook
 


Thank you for in true liberal form stating your ridiculous opinion as fact.


At least mine is based on facts, you however is based on opinion that's subjective.



posted on Oct, 29 2013 @ 03:50 AM
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abortion was illegal in the U.S. at one time. There was no legal definition for a fetus being human or not at any given age at that time. So at that time was abortion murder or not?

If you say yes then your arguments make no sense. Because as I have pointed out, many bad people have murdered many people legally. Unless you want to argue that hitler wasn't a murderer (good luck with that).

If you say no then your arguments make no sense. You can't have it both ways. Either it was always murder or it was never murder and what is legal makes no difference in defining murder. It is a catch 22

nuff said.
edit on 29-10-2013 by beegoodbees because: (no reason given)





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