No, America is not a Christian nation

FreeMason


Either you accept the ability of government to restrict any right or some are inalienable by God.

Cant have it both ways.

Agreed?

Wow. Just wow. So the only way to have rights and protect them from the government is to believe they were given to you by some big invisible, imaginary spook that lives in the sky and watches your every move? Seriously?

This is why I think religion is even worse than drugs in dampening a person's ability to think for themselves.

Here's a brash concept: How about our rights existing and being inalienable because.... it is the natural course of things, and is the most rational and civilized way of being?

The government does not give me rights. Nor do my rights come from fictional entities I put no stock or faith in. I was born with them. They were not given to me. The only rights a person has are those that they are willing to stand up and fight for.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

FreeMason


Either you accept the ability of government to restrict any right or some are inalienable by God.

Cant have it both ways.

Agreed?

Wow. Just wow. So the only way to have rights and protect them from the government is to believe they were given to you by some big invisible, imaginary spook that lives in the sky and watches your every move? Seriously?

This is why I think religion is even worse than drugs in dampening a person's ability to think for themselves.

Here's a brash concept: How about our rights existing and being inalienable because.... it is the natural course of things, and is the most rational and civilized way of being?

The government does not give me rights. Nor do my rights come from fictional entities I put no stock or faith in. I was born with them. They were not given to me. The only rights a person has are those that they are willing to stand up and fight for.

Dumbest counter argument ever.

You were born with what rights and why?

Without God you cannot argue for inalienable rights.

TKDRL
reply to post by FreeMason

 

Give it up, creator is a generic word. They didn't use god, jesus, allah, zeus, or any other diety. They used creator to apply to all the religions, even those without any religion. One of the biggest reasons the US even happened, was religious bigotry in europe. No way the founders would slant the US, toward any one religion. Learn history.

edit on Sun, 20 Oct 2013 00:54:58 -0500 by TKDRL because: (no reason given)

Creator is straight out of the Bible and therefore not generic considering the context of the authors.

Dondylion

Nephalim
reply to post by Dondylion

 

I just did. Here is another
Divine Providence
Supreme Judge of the world

lol

edit on 20-10-2013 by Nephalim because: (no reason given)

So words you say now = proof, then? Does that mean if I say I'm a flying purple hippo does that mean it's true?

I'm asking for actual proof: links to documents, historian accounts (more than one person's who agree with one another) where the Founding Fathers included the word "God" in anything that pertained to the founding of our nation. Like I said, if our Founding Fathers truly were all Christian and founded this nation on the Bible and God, those docs shouldn't be too hard to find, right?

I'll be waiting.

edit on 20/10/2013 by Dondylion because: (no reason given)

The founding fathers and their documents quotations: approximately 80% are from the Bible. Not Thomas Paine or Locke.....the Bible.

Furthermore our early US citizens were afraid of CATHOLICS!

They were not religiously tolerant except in allowing states to determine their religion of state.

Small list of statements of Revolutionaries.
www.wallbuilders.com...

reply to post by FreeMason


I agree 100% that rights must be from a God, if they are true - it is the only logical argument for inalienable rights.

The argument about Christian founders, though... maybe not, man. You might want to look into that a little further, starting with Thomas Paine.

Bleeeeep
reply to post by FreeMason

 

I agree 100% that rights must be from a God, if they are true - it is the only logical argument for inalienable rights.

The argument about Christian founders, though... maybe not, man. You might want to look into that a little further, starting with Thomas Paine.

Thomas Paine was one man out of millions, a britt not an American and was far less well known then than now.

Refer to my link of quotes.

reply to post by FreeMason


On paper, you win, but actions speech louder than words.

If you want a nation of Christians to follow you, how would you better do so, than to get them to believe your way is righteous?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Bleeeeep
reply to post by FreeMason

 

On paper, you win, but actions speech louder than words.

If you want a nation of Christians to follow you, how would you better do so, than to get them to believe your way is righteous?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Actions do soeal louder than words the Revolution was preached in churches, and the first acts of congress were to pay military Chaplins and to convert Indians to Christianity....hmmm

reply to post by FreeMason

What did they preach? That God said to make war?

And they converted natives how? With holy blankets of small pox and great pilgrimages like the trail of tears?

I think your view is romanticism, and I would like for it to be true too, but I just can't see it that way.

I haven't read the whole thread yet but I was helping my child with his history homework tonight. I was thumbing through his text book and the last chapter is about Christianity. It is titled "Christianity". A part highlighted off to the side said something like...When Christianity started the Romans persecuted them.
This doesn't bother me in the least but it's new to me. We didn't have this sort of stuff in our textbooks growing up (and that was when it wasn't such a big deal). We had it in music and other ways but no formal learning. I wonder if they will be getting into all religions or just this one. Maybe it's not uncommon and I'm just now noticing.

I've heard people say because God has left this country we have lost protection. I've heard them say that about schools as well. It's too bad people are so threatened by God in general let alone Christianity. I heard the house say the pledge of allegiance before they began their session the other day (something my son has never done in school yet I did as a kid all the time). It appears that is still alive and well in some places within government. I'm not hearing anyone complaint about them saying it so people are okay with God in general - just dont tell them which type of God. That makes sense. While they were saying it I heard some almost whisper the word God, and a bit of disunity on the word. Some almost shouted it while others paused for a split second as if to make sure others would say it. To me that is just ridiculous. It is our national pledge. What is the big fear about God?

Dianec
I'm not hearing anyone complaint about them saying it so people are okay with God in general - just dont tell them which type of God. That makes sense. While they were saying it I heard some almost whisper the word God, and a bit of disunity on the word. Some almost shouted it while others paused for a split second as if to make sure others would say it. To me that is just ridiculous. It is our national pledge. What is the big fear about God?

What about Pagans and Atheists? I believe in several Gods, and none of them are remotely Abrahamic. Am I less of an American for that?

I don't know why this doesn't end the debate, but it never does, even when people read it.

From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams (one of our Founding Fathers) on June 10, 1797

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

So here we have a clear admission by the United States in 1797 that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. All U.S. Treaties represent U.S. law (see the Constitution, Article VI, Sect.2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.")

Although the Treaty of Tripoli under agreement only lasted a few years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.

Here's an article about it.

www.stephenjaygould.org...

EDIT: I'm surprised I got a single star for posting this.

reply to post by CryHavoc


www.youtube.com...


You think it would end the debate but just wait.

reply to post by LupusDiscus


No that actually makes you more like an American since our Country is all about diversity. I'm not sure where I implied anyone would be less American by not saying the pledge of allegiance. Where did I say this? What I said is that some of those in congress seemed a little afraid to say the word "God", and I think it is ridiculous to be afraid to say something if you believe in it. Don't blame them - people walk on eggshells since some people get so offended by words, beliefs, and even traditions that include words it makes everyone walk on eggshells. As far as I saw - all of them said the pledge of allegiance. If some had not said "God" I wouldn't really care. If people are afraid of that word or feel that strongly about it that is their business. The point is - all said it yet some seemed uptight about it.

But maybe we should just not have anyone believe in anything. Maybe that would make everyone happy. Beliefs drive behavior, and no matter which way you cut it they absolutely affect how we make decisions. And without something to believe in there is nothing behind the behavior. Everyone in a diverse Country cannot expect things to be the ideal for them. If one party is mainly Christian no one should be threatened by this unless they worry about being forced into conversion. That won't happen. People feeling that threatened by others belief systems is what has caused wars and the whole mess with religion. Never in the history of humans will we all agree on everything. We will also never agree on what happens after we die. So why continue to fight about it?

When America is so confused it can't even have a pledge or national song this will only weaken the spirit of this Country. It will show that diversity cant be done since there is nothing to unite people with symbolism. Take it all away - we are an athiest Country. Sometimes you just tell people to knock it off with nit picking so you can keep with tradition. Or you let everyone have their way and have nothing in the end. If atheist - it's just a word right? If someone is any other religion God is symbolic for all of them. Maybe not the right word but it is general enough. I simply think it gets a little stupid to see even that become a problem. When congress said it I sensed hesitation with some. That tells me people are walking on eggshells due to the nit picking. Let tradition be so we at least keep that stable.

Dianec

No that actually makes you more like an American since our Country is all about diversity. I'm not sure where I implied anyone would be less American by not saying the pledge of allegiance. Where did I say this? What I said is that some of those in congress seemed a little afraid to say the word "God", and I think it is ridiculous to be afraid to say something if you believe in it. Don't blame them - people walk on eggshells since some people get so offended by words, beliefs, and even traditions that include words it makes everyone walk on eggshells. As far as I saw - all of them said the pledge of allegiance. If some had not said "God" I wouldn't really care. If people are afraid of that word or feel that strongly about it that is their business. The point is - all said it yet some seemed uptight about it.

Well yeah, everyone said it, it's part of the pledge, and the whole point of the pledge is saying the whole thing to prove your loyalty. Or, that's what it started as. I guess now it's more just tradition. Originally it was invented for immigrants to have to say at the borders, to give them a sense that their loyalty was to us now.

Dianec If one party is mainly Christian no one should be threatened by this unless they worry about being forced into conversion. That won't happen.

Personally I'm more worried about being denied work, locked up, or simply having less rights should the Christian Right invoke a theocracy.

Dianec When America is so confused it can't even have a pledge or national song this will only weaken the spirit of this Country. It will show that diversity cant be done since there is nothing to unite people with symbolism. Take it all away - we are an athiest Country. Sometimes you just tell people to knock it off with nit picking so you can keep with tradition. Or you let everyone have their way and have nothing in the end. If atheist - it's just a word right? If someone is any other religion God is symbolic for all of them. Maybe not the right word but it is general enough. I simply think it gets a little stupid to see even that become a problem. When congress said it I sensed hesitation with some. That tells me people are walking on eggshells due to the nit picking. Let tradition be so we at least keep that stable.

Tradition isn't always good, that said? I see what you mean about needing symbols. I'm just not sure which symbols to go with. Perhaps the personification of Liberty? I'd salute her.

Dianec
If one party is mainly Christian no one should be threatened by this unless they worry about being forced into conversion. That won't happen.

It has already happened. You seem to misunderstand that just having the words in the pledge of allegiance (which were only put there in 1954) or on our money is forcing someone to be a part of religions that believe in God. Not all religions believe in God. Some believe in a Goddess, some believe in many Gods and Goddesses. Some even believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. How would YOU like to have to say "One Nation, under Flying Spaghetti Monster"? People are already being forced.

We're not an atheist country, but neither are we a Christian country. The country is supposed to be for everyone. Religious freedom. Not just the religions that believe in God.

Before you try to say I'm an atheist or something, I said the Pledge growing up. All of it. Every day. Didn't bother me in the slightest.

I'm also a Navy Veteran and won't stand by and watch people's rights being trampled on. Keep your religion to yourself, or at least out of our government.

CryHavoc

Dianec
If one party is mainly Christian no one should be threatened by this unless they worry about being forced into conversion. That won't happen.

It has already happened. You seem to misunderstand that just having the words in the pledge of allegiance (which were only put there in 1954) or on our money is forcing someone to be a part of religions that believe in God. Not all religions believe in God. Some believe in a Goddess, some believe in many Gods and Goddesses. Some even believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. How would YOU like to have to say "One Nation, under Flying Spaghetti Monster"? People are already being forced.

We're not an atheist country, but neither are we a Christian country. The country is supposed to be for everyone. Religious freedom. Not just the religions that believe in God.

Before you try to say I'm an atheist or something, I said the Pledge growing up. All of it. Every day. Didn't bother me in the slightest.

I'm also a Navy Veteran and won't stand by and watch people's rights being trampled on. Keep your religion to yourself, or at least out of our government.

edit on 21-10-2013 by CryHavoc because: (no reason given)

By your argument, NOT having the words in the pledge and etc., is a counter endorsement of Atheism, and militant secularism.

What it is is EXPRESSION, stop being a fascist, and stop trying to convince people that EXPRESSING views is the same thing as FORCED CONVERSION.

Want to learn what a forced conversion is go to a muslim country and watch them slowly cut heads off with a dull knife.

CryHavoc
I don't know why this doesn't end the debate, but it never does, even when people read it.

From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams (one of our Founding Fathers) on June 10, 1797

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

So here we have a clear admission by the United States in 1797 that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. All U.S. Treaties represent U.S. law (see the Constitution, Article VI, Sect.2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.")

Although the Treaty of Tripoli under agreement only lasted a few years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.

Here's an article about it.

www.stephenjaygould.org...

EDIT: I'm surprised I got a single star for posting this.

edit on 20-10-2013 by CryHavoc because: (no reason given)

It doesn't end the debate because it doesn't erase the literally TENS OF THOUSANDS of documents of America's founding that says OTHERWISE.

You pull ONE treaty, worded that way SPECIFICALLY to avoid war with a MUSLIM TERRORIST, as an expression to outweigh THOUSANDS of other documents?

That shows that you are literally the most MYOPIC and IGNORANT person on Revolutionary America, EVER.

LupusDiscus

Dianec
I'm not hearing anyone complaint about them saying it so people are okay with God in general - just dont tell them which type of God. That makes sense. While they were saying it I heard some almost whisper the word God, and a bit of disunity on the word. Some almost shouted it while others paused for a split second as if to make sure others would say it. To me that is just ridiculous. It is our national pledge. What is the big fear about God?

What about Pagans and Atheists? I believe in several Gods, and none of them are remotely Abrahamic. Am I less of an American for that?

edit on 10/20/1313 by LupusDiscus because: Spelling error

You're just less rational for it. How do multiple gods have authority as a god if they are limited by one another or a greater "natural" force?

Dianec
I haven't read the whole thread yet but I was helping my child with his history homework tonight. I was thumbing through his text book and the last chapter is about Christianity. It is titled "Christianity". A part highlighted off to the side said something like...When Christianity started the Romans persecuted them.
This doesn't bother me in the least but it's new to me. We didn't have this sort of stuff in our textbooks growing up (and that was when it wasn't such a big deal). We had it in music and other ways but no formal learning. I wonder if they will be getting into all religions or just this one. Maybe it's not uncommon and I'm just now noticing.

I've heard people say because God has left this country we have lost protection. I've heard them say that about schools as well. It's too bad people are so threatened by God in general let alone Christianity. I heard the house say the pledge of allegiance before they began their session the other day (something my son has never done in school yet I did as a kid all the time). It appears that is still alive and well in some places within government. I'm not hearing anyone complaint about them saying it so people are okay with God in general - just dont tell them which type of God. That makes sense. While they were saying it I heard some almost whisper the word God, and a bit of disunity on the word. Some almost shouted it while others paused for a split second as if to make sure others would say it. To me that is just ridiculous. It is our national pledge. What is the big fear about God?

Does your History Textbook say that Jesus Christ was claimed to be God as the Son of God in a Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Ghost?

Or does it say Jesus was a "teacher"?

Because I have a 1970s History Text book that defined Jesus as a "teacher". How pathetic. Especially when Matthew 8 said "The people were amazed for he spoke as one with authority and NOT AS A TEACHER."