A question about faith

reply to post by Cuervo


The laws of physics only allow so many variations of one success. This comes across as a pattern, which comes across as intelligence. We miss the fact that these successes are the results of thousands of failures because we're not looking for failures. We miss the forest for the trees.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Cuervo

 

The laws of physics only allow so many variations of one success. This comes across as a pattern, which comes across as intelligence. We miss the fact that these successes are the results of thousands of failures because we're not looking for failures. We miss the forest for the trees.

Are you speaking about creation myths specifically? I was talking about humanity's tendency to sense the connection to the other side and to divinity.

That doesn't really have anything to do with probability. Probability doesn't create personal experiences with spirituality and the divine.

reply to post by beezzer

I don't think there were. And if there weren't, doesn't that give some indication of a higher being? A god? A pantheon of gods? A God?

They also believed the moon was just out of reach, the earth was flat and that the universe revolved around the earth. I think that indicates quite a bit more.

Atheist was slur. Even Christians were considered atheists as they were fed to the lions. Even many common dictionary entries on "atheist" indicate the use of this word as a rhetorical slandering of someone. Why anyone would want to wear "atheist" as a badge of honor is beyond me.

Aphorism
reply to post by beezzer

 

I don't think there were. And if there weren't, doesn't that give some indication of a higher being? A god? A pantheon of gods? A God?

They also believed the moon was just out of reach, the earth was flat and that the universe revolved around the earth. I think that indicates quite a bit more.

Atheist was slur. Even Christians were considered atheists as they were fed to the lions. Even many common dictionary entries on "atheist" indicate the use of this word as a rhetorical slandering of someone. Why anyone would want to wear "atheist" as a badge of honor is beyond me.

The ancient Hebrews wrote in the Bible that the earth was round, the moon was spinning by gravity on an axis, the sun was just a star across the sky, the ozone layer and dinosaurs. Pretty good for just a bunch of pastoralists herding sheep across a wilderness. But just suppose this, at night time when they looked up at a sky full of stars that was not blocked by pollution, imagine the wonder and awe at that sight. I would love to see a sky like that.

Then think of this, the people south of the Equator, they saw the Southern Cross. People in the north saw the Aurora Borealis, could you imagine what that must have been like for all of them to experience something so magnificent, well would say that today because we have been polluted with so much smoke and we have acid rain. But to look out on a clear night and walk by the moonlight almost as bright as the sun. Then imagine those who felt the long months of daylight or darkness, as the people in Alaska do.

It was the other religions that believed the earth was flat while some say it was an egg. The Greeks believed Atlas held up the earth (but where his hands clamped, we don't know).

reply to post by WarminIndy


In Revelations, 4 angels stood on the four corners of the earth. How many corners on a sphere? Maybe it is a contradiction, because elsewhere we are told the earth is circular.

Any reference to the "circle of the earth", is about circles, not spheres. Frisbees are circular; pancakes are circular; coins are circular; tortillas are circular. Still, nonetheless, flat. Nowhere does it mention the earth's sphericity, and that it wasn't suspended by God. Now-a-days, after getting a better look, we know.

The devil takes jesus to a mountain and shows him the kingdoms of the earth in all their glory. How is that possible on a spherical earth? That is possible only on a flat earth.

It's easy to look at the moon and guess that other celestial bodies are circular in appearance. I would imagine the ancient folk did the same.

beezzer
reply to post by pheonix358

 

Nicely put.

I think (G)gods message is perfect.

It's just our interpretation that sucks.

I would not use the word 'interpretation." It is in fact replacing God's message to suit the needs of the rich and powerful.

All of the prophets have said clearly that we should not have idols. Yet every religion does from christian to Buddhism. The reason for the idols and the huge buildings is not to praise God, it is to bring the people together so they may be parted from their wealth. A field, a mount in fact anywhere was good enough for the prophets but churches need buildings!

Oh, give generously, we need a new roof! Pigs bum.

The Catholic church is the Largest, Richest and most Powerful multinational corporation on the face of this planet. Their ownership of land and buildings is staggering let alone their investment portfolios. The Church of England is not that far behind and that wealth is owned by the Queen. It is staggering that people believe that organizations such as the Salvation Army is all about helping people. It is not. On it's own it is staggeringly wealthy.

So Beezer, look inward. The true message is to know yourself first and foremost. Then and only then to know others and be kind. Whatever is next for us after death, it cannot be as bad as this place run by power crazed greedy little bastards.

Be at peace my friend.

P

pheonix358


So Beezer, look inward. The true message is to know yourself first and foremost. Then and only then to know others and be kind. Whatever is next for us after death, it cannot be as bad as this place run by power crazed greedy little bastards.

Be at peace my friend.

P

About the nicest thing I've seen written on these pages.

Good words to follow.

Thank you.

Klassified
Since religion had to have a beginning, atheism is older than religion.

What an interesting concept. It assumes that religion and modern man did not "begin" simultaneously, of course...a possibility I do not rule out, though I am rather dubious of it.
Another reason it is interesting is because the advent of cave paintings, which he considers as a marker to the "beginnings" of religion(another assumption, but Im willing to roll with it), are considered to be the first sign of culture in Early Man...the first step up on the stairway to civilization. Previous to that, man left no signs, made no mark, had zero progress(so sayeth current science).

So, in arguing that atheism is older than religion, he seems to be providing a clear path to a true evaluation of the value of atheism: Zero.

I'm not so sure I'm completely on board with his reasoning, but I think it has some merit. I would also suspect that long ago, just as it is today, there were many in religious leadership positions who were closet atheists. So I would say atheism is at least as old as religion.

It may have merit...but to whom is it meritous? (if that word doesnt exist, it should. And now it does XD )

By the very nature of things religion would have to exist before Atheists were even thought about as the label we have today.

Why would you draw a picture or write something down that is just the absence of something no one believes in? For example, I don't believe in leather chairs that have eyes and pointy beards. There is no reason for me to say this, no one will ever bother arguing about it.

As for mortality ... I dunno life is pretty awesome, but why fear death? You will be as the dinosaurs and the unborn, without feeling or suffering. I'll be much more worried if I'm forced to go to a celestial North Korea.

reply to post by Pinke

Hmm....are you replying to me? Seems like you might be, but your post lacks the standard "reply to post by X" header, so I'm not sure...

Has anyone read the book "Oryx and Crake" by Margaret Atwood? It has a very interesting take on human belief in God. Basically, that it's genetically encoded in us and can't be eradicated even through very deliberate genetic programming. I don't know if that's true or not, but I would speculate that with lack of scientific understanding, humans were forced to make sense of the world through narrative--stories--and so early myths, written or oral, were a key part of human survival; a way of understanding the chaos of the universe. We now have science to balance that out, but our belief in myths doesn't seem to have faded in proportion to the vast scientific advances we've made over the last century. So maybe there is some sort of genetic encoding going on in there. I don't know--but it's an interesting thing to ponder.

A study was conducted, cant remember exactly details I think it was put up on ATS, that if someone was born and grew up on a desert island they would grow up to believe in a higher being.

The belief in a higher being; GOD, is the default, not the other way around. The natural disposition contains within each of us a reverance element, where we revere a creator... I find it baffling why even athiests ended up making a 'church of atheism', what has happened is their reverance instinct has turned away from their true creator to something else - in most cases, an idea; that we evolved or some other athiestic viewpoint on their reason for being here.

reply to post by beezzer


Well...I think there is a God or Gods, but I don't think they are concerned with us anymore. We are kind of like kids who have left for college. I'm sure they check in us every once and a while, but lets be honest. Humans are not very interesting. We argue about race, politics, and religion all the time instead of being focused on the universe and our immediate surroundings. If I were God, I would be terribly bored with the human race. On to faith, well I don't really have a real opinion worth noting about it. Because everyone's faith is different. If you break it down, no has the same level of faith as the next person. You may have a person who believes that God will take care of them no matter what. Even when they are arrested and thrown in prison, "It's part of God's plan." Or the people who party all day and night thinking, "YOLO". Faith is not an objective theme that we can judge easily. I just hope that I stay clear of the religious fanatics who believe they can kill for God and be granted a place into heaven. Or the young lady who I took out for a seafood dinner but doesn't want to have sex because Jesus is saving her for the right person. Faith can be whatever you choose it to be. As long as it doesn't mess up my day, I'm more than fine with a person's faith.

reply to post by beezzer


Some purpose that there was a commonly known base faith religion before there was organized religion. This faith is shown in Cain and Able, two different offerings one of grain and one of flesh both acceptable for different offerings. Who taught them to do that? I would have to say Adam did. It is similar to the global tribal stories that are the same even though there is great distance between the different people groups. I would chalk it up to a common story known before the separation of the languages and people groups at the tower of babble into the 70 tribes of man.

guitarplayer
reply to post by beezzer

 

Some purpose that there was a commonly known base faith religion before there was organized religion. This faith is shown in Cain and Able, two different offerings one of grain and one of flesh both acceptable for different offerings. Who taught them to do that? I would have to say Adam did. It is similar to the global tribal stories that are the same even though there is great distance between the different people groups. I would chalk it up to a common story known before the separation of the languages and people groups at the tower of babble into the 70 tribes of man.

I have always thought that the commonality came from the civilization that may have existed prior to the last ice age. A few made it through to this age of mankind. May have been the Atlantean civilization. Who knows! I do think that man keeps on getting smashed by ice ages, they are on a time table after all. We are due for another long cold spell right about now. 7 Billion people will not make it through the first five years.

P