When Police Shoot Your Family Members - Why Even Have Them At All?

reply to post by TorqueyThePig


That danger zone as you call it. That's the distance that most LE involved shootings accure at 21 ft or less, bout the distance of a Police Cruiser. It;s also the distance you shoot from taking the Concealed Carry Course's test, to get your CC permit. So I guess we all need to carry a damn ruler or tape measure to make sure we aint in the threat zone and the bulls eye dont sprout from our chest's.

Pick any city in America, go back 10 -15 years and research officer involved shootings. The increase from then till now is amazing. Any city. Any state. We need way better stop gap checks of LE.

reply to post by Snarl

Before anyone asks, consider that advice as repeated from my own fingertips. What people may be missing is that when bad cops are tolerated by good cops ... there are no good cops. You either have a respectable police force ... or you do not.

Your point has some validity to it. There are good cops who have left police work for this reason alone. They could no longer be a party to what they saw. However...
Consider the cost to a whistleblowing good cop. Serpico is an example that comes to mind. Also, if it weren't for the percentage of moderate cops out there, the police force would be overrun with bad cops. It's a conundrum.

reply to post by openyourmind1262


Maybe I am wrong but it seems like you are attacking me?

The "21 feet rule" basically means that if an attacker is 21 feet or less from you with a deadly weapon (knife), they can advance towards you and attack you before you can pull your firearm out of the holster and stop the threat. It's not really any kind of legal standard. It is more of a principal. It applies to anyone that carries a firearm. I mean if you are a concealed carrier and a person approaches you with a knife in a threatening manner there is going to be a certain point at which you draw your firearm and shoot.You obviously want to do that before they are able to inflict damage to you.

In my post I said that the guy DID NOT encroach in their space (21ft). If he began walking towards the officers with the knife and refused to stop at their command then the shooting would of been justified. That DIDN'T happen.

I believe this shooting was not justified.

Klassified
reply to post by Snarl

 

Before anyone asks, consider that advice as repeated from my own fingertips. What people may be missing is that when bad cops are tolerated by good cops ... there are no good cops. You either have a respectable police force ... or you do not.

Your point has some validity to it. There are good cops who have left police work for this reason alone. They could no longer be a party to what they saw. However...
Consider the cost to a whistleblowing good cop. Serpico is an example that comes to mind. Also, if it weren't for the percentage of moderate cops out there, the police force would be overrun with bad cops. It's a conundrum.

There is a solution: The polygraph. The officer submits to the examination within the proscribed period or they are out (no exception). They pass (no inconclusive response acceptable) or they're out. It worked where I worked and there was never an exception. Every time I saw a member of the team passed I breathed a sigh of relief. The fact that I was working with good people was re-confirmed.

This is NOT going to happen at the local law enforcement level. You'd be lucky to see it at the state level. It's even rare at the federal level. IME, maybe one of thirty pass the initial exam. The long-term fallout rate is negligible, but I've seen it once. Talk about embarrassment. Everyone sees it ... nobody wants to be 'that guy' ... makes you walk a straight line.

reply to post by Emerys


Why don't we hear from them? Why don't they police their own? Until that happens they are complicit. Just like the "good" Muslims.

Whistle blowers are the only hope we have left.

Klassified

Emerys
reply to post by greencmp

 

Not every police officer is dumb like the one who shot this poor guy. My father was a police officer. They definitely should have handled that situation differently, such as taser guns. Sorry for the families loss, but not every police officer is out to get you people. There are a lot of good men and women in uniform who protect you and others while you sleep.

I agree with you. But the number of psycho cops is continually growing. How long before the good cops get weeded out eventually, and all we have left are jack-booted thugs, who are barely human.

The quake grunt always comes to mind in instances like these.

Grunt (Q1)

"Goons with probes inserted into their pleasure centers; wired up so when they kill someone, they get paroxysms of ecstasy. In essence, customized serial killers. Easy to kill, and they tote shotgun shells. It's like a little Christmas each time you blow a Grunt away!"
— Quake Manual

reply to post by Snarl

There is a solution: The polygraph. The officer submits to the examination within the proscribed period or they are out (no exception). They pass (no inconclusive response acceptable) or they're out. It worked where I worked and there was never an exception. Every time I saw a member of the team passed I breathed a sigh of relief. The fact that I was working with good people was re-confirmed.

This would be not only a good deterrent for those who are already peace officers, but an excellent deterrent for new cops coming in. I'd like to see this nationwide with ALL public servants. Especially our three branches of government. lol.

Chickensalad
reply to post by Spookybelle

 

ever heard of vigilante justice?
when the majority of society sees your actions as wrong, they will then enforce a punishment that the whole can agree on.

funny thing is, societies compass on certain issues may change with the times, instead of following laws that 'are on the books' but nobody agrees with, it would be determined in a mob sort of way whether or not your actions deserve punishment or not.

this isn't brain surgery, there are STILL cultures out there that practice such a thing, and crimes are low.

hell, who wants to be potentially beat down by an angry crowd?
I would rather take my chances with an incompetent LEO than a p.o'd crowd of my peers.

There is and always will be vigilantism. I wouldn't call it justice, justice is when a vigilante overreacts and causes harm unjustly and is called to answer for their crime in a court of law.

Some vigilantism is always tolerated, most is not for the reason you point out. How do police stop vigilantism? They can't and they don't. Vigilantes are usually apprehended by their peers or voluntarily submit to the justice system (which gives them some instant credibility and typically some significant legal leeway).

When the mob of 100 people dragged the journalists out of their car and beat them because they were white, there was no justice. In fact, the police tried to bury the story, they could not and did not prevent it.

These are all good points of concern and they are consistent with what we have been taught about the necessity of police in public school. I disagree with the reasoning and the conclusions. I also think public schools and the DPW should be abolished.

Another tragedy perpetrated by some big dummy in a position of authority.

The real reason these things happen is simply because they pretty much always have, we just have technology now to beam it around the world in almost real time.

People make mistakes, people have bad days, people are people....

Don't make the mistake of assuming I am an apologist for anyone, other than making apologies for being a member of a species that seems to make more mistakes than most species, and assume I have the authority to do so because "The Bible tells me so".

One must consider if they can forgive themselves, instead of being a conscienceless drone relying on something they have no solid proof exists for easing their troubled mind.

Everybody has to die, just not so badly, and why does it have to be so televised these days?, It's not like it's something new.

TorqueyThePig
I am going to try to stay on topic and not respond to the inevitable cop bashing I receive on this and every other forum.

In my opinion after watching the video I believe the officers acted in the wrong and should be held accountable for their actions.

From what I saw the guy never stepped towards the officers. He didn't appear to be within their "danger zone" of 21 feet. If anything the officers walked towards him closing the gap.

I have been in this same situation and other similar ones numerous times in my career. In a situation where some one has a knife, is not an immediate threat and there are at least two officers on scene, one officer should pull his firearm (lethal force) and the other should pull his taser or other (non lethal) tool. If the person suddenly charges the officers, the one with the less lethal tool should attempt to use it first. If it fails to stop the threat then lethal force is justified. To accomplish this takes great skill. Great skill in not only being able to use your weapon or non lethal system effectively, but also communication and timing between the two officers. It appears that these two didn't have either the skill or knowledge or both.

Another thing the officers could of done was to park their patrol car parallel across the street to make a barrier between them and the guy. Then they could start the conflict resolution/negotiating process. There is no need to rush.

I really don't like being a Monday morning quarterback. However, I do have experience in these types of scenarios. I believed these officers are in the wrong and I would of handled the situation differently.

edit on 18-10-2013 by TorqueyThePig because: (no reason given)

Hey Torquey, thanks for chiming in. Hopefully this discussion will remain civil and you won't feel bashed, so far so good I think.

I do have some concerns about the use of terms like 'danger zone', it is inconsistent with the presumed function of police. As peace officers, they are there to stabilize a situation and bring about a reduction to the likelihood of any violence. They are not meant to insert themselves into any situation where people are not in immediate danger and then use deadly force to 'protect' themselves. The 'rules of engagement' (if there were any) should preclude this very common course of action. That said, if fired upon, police (like any citizen) have the right to defend themselves but, like any citizen, they should be wary of collateral damage.

Setting south central and NYC aside for the moment, I do not see a need for any armed force in most towns, especially if everyone is already armed. The police have no better ability to handle any situation than those closest to the problem, in fact, they have much less.

Keep in mind, I am coming at this from the perspective of presumption of corruption. Power always corrupts so, power should be withheld whenever and wherever possible. When special power is awarded to an agent of the state, they should be presumed to misuse that power and be bridled with relentless oversight as a precaution.

I believe what I suggest is the American way.

www.latimes.com...
LAPD officer pleads not guilty to assaulting handcuffed woman

Prosecutors say O’Callaghan — a 19-year department veteran — kicked Thomas in the groin and stomach and pushed her in the throat while she was in handcuffs and restraints.

Thomas, 35, once inside the patrol car, lost consciousness, and paramedics were called. Shortly afterward, she was pronounced dead at a hospital.

Prosecutors said last week that they declined to charge O'Callaghan with involuntary manslaughter because of insufficient evidence to prove her conduct caused Thomas’ death END QUOTE:

She must have had an allergic reaction to the handcuffs....

reply to post by TorqueyThePig


Was'nt attacking you, sorry if it was taken that way. 21 feet is not that close, when your gonna shoot at a target or person. I'm gonna do a group of five rounds at 21 ft and have a really tight group, within an inch or two, and I don't have police training. And the fact that a taser can reach beyond 21 feet is even more reason to question some of these LE involved shootings. It just seems now-a days it;s shoot first ask the questions later....dead people tell no tales.

Having LE that will pull & shoot first is not the way you go about stopping criminals. I Open Carry, so I doubt that a criminal is gonna "gonna come at me with a knife" Your a fool to bring a knife to a gun fight" Unless your looking to get shot multiple times. I Open Carry to prevent, deter, a criminal from picking me out of the crowd as a victim for his crime. As In I don't want to become a statistic. Again was'nt attcking you sorry if that was implied.OYM1262


We need video cameras on all LE at all times while their on duty. Strictly controlled by an outside the police dept source. And strict rules and ramifications if that video feed is lost at anytime that LEO is on duty. It has been proven that when LEO have the personal video camera's on the incidents involving shootings and abuse abate drastictly. We have the tech for this, why not institute it across the board. The biggets tool LE have nation wide is FEAR. As in US fearing THEM.

InverseLookingGlass
reply to post by Emerys

 

Why don't we hear from them? Why don't they police their own? Until that happens they are complicit. Just like the "good" Muslims.

Whistle blowers are the only hope we have left.

Very true, that was one of the many things that bothered me about the NYC road rage incident. Of the 5 police officers involved, one was a sergeant and one was actually internal affairs.

greencmp

InverseLookingGlass
reply to post by Emerys

 

Why don't we hear from them? Why don't they police their own? Until that happens they are complicit. Just like the "good" Muslims.

Whistle blowers are the only hope we have left.

Very true, that was one of the many things that bothered me about the NYC road rage incident. Of the 5 police officers involved, one was a sergeant and one was actually internal affairs.

The problem is and has been for a while now that the PD's are Good ole Boys Clubs. They do not police their own and all too often cover up for crimes that members of the club commit. Until this mindset changes and if it ever does they will continue to lose respect.

Darkphoenix77

greencmp

InverseLookingGlass
reply to post by Emerys

 

Why don't we hear from them? Why don't they police their own? Until that happens they are complicit. Just like the "good" Muslims.

Whistle blowers are the only hope we have left.

Very true, that was one of the many things that bothered me about the NYC road rage incident. Of the 5 police officers involved, one was a sergeant and one was actually internal affairs.

The problem is and has been for a while now that the PD's are Good ole Boys Clubs. They do not police their own and all too often cover up for crimes that members of the club commit. Until this mindset changes and if it ever does they will continue to lose respect.

Unfortunately, they have become nothing less than the best equipped gang in any city. Not all gangs are completely bad, some are even righteous in a warped sort of way.

How likely is it for any gang member to effect change within their organization? What might the reaction of other less idealistic members be to any attempt at reform?

The most disturbing thing to consider is that they are, in fact, unionized against the citizenry and view the American people as their opponents. All public sector unions are a threat to America and this one is among the biggest and most deleterious.

I do have to remind everyone that there are good police, I just don't think we need most of them. The fact that the good ones are losing the fight for legitimacy simply aggravates the situation.

Cops these days are out of control. Paramilitary units that wish they could have cut it as special forces operatives but couldn't. They think they can get away with anything and in most cases they can. It's just getting worse.

Just reposting/crossposting the video that shows the CCTV footage with commentary by the mother and father of this guy who was gunned down.

Darkphoenix77
Just reposting/crossposting the video that shows the CCTV footage with commentary by the mother and father of this guy who was gunned down.

Thanks Darkphoenix!

Chilling Video of Dallas, PD Attempted Execution of Mentally Ill Man

Lesson learned: If you need HELP with a particular situation, DON'T call the cops.

Not every police officer is dumb...

I 2nd that. I've trained with many police and ex-military and have never met (AFAIK) any that weren't good people, with compassion.