Stenographer snaps, rants on House Floor (a religious deconstruction/assessment of the story)

reply to post by wildtimes

No, he's not a reverend or pastor. Earlier I linked to Bill Young's wiki page: He's the longest-term Representative (Rep-FLA) on record, and has a clear background in Evangelical issues. Check out those links.

Not a 'visitor' - a respected and now retiring Congressman.

So here's the question: was she doing it to make someone look good, or make someone look foolish?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

was she doing to make someone look good, or make someone look foolish?

Well, since it could obviously be taken either way, it hardly matters.

That would be a subjective call. To ME, she looks foolish. To Evangelicals, she would probably look good.

wildtimes
To ME, she looks foolish. To Evangelicals, she would probably look good.

To me she looks like she was having a midlife crisis thing and hated her job and wanted to go out in a bang OR she snapped from something ... be it the weight of the job or the influence of a religious cult ... something like that. But the psych and health evaluation will tell more. I doubt we'll see it though. Patient confidentiality.

reply to post by wildtimes


I don't mean to belittle your viewpoint or fears about them. I really spent most of my spare time working against their interests back in the day. I even published an underground "zine" for a couple years called 4th Reich Update all about religious extremism - fundamentalists, dominionists, charismatics, etc/. I got to know them up close and personal as Falwell was actually a neighbor of mine. His Thomas road Baptist church would send young people out in to neighborhoods to proselytize from door to door.

I was very concerned about them gaining power and in their lust to follow Biblical principles might actually create the necessary conditions for Armageddon to happen. They blindly supported Israel regardless of what happened to the Palestinian people, worked ceaselessly to enforce code of morality censorship on music, books and even movies.
They turned a blind eye to racism, were misogynistic, militaristic, materialistic, ....pretty much the antithesis of everything I believed in.

My question to you is where their power? I know there's many huge churches in the Midwest but I don't hear much about them being involved in politics. Is there something quietly going on behind the scenes I'm not aware of? I'm truly interested to know as I do share the same concerns as you.

My town of Lynchburg, Va is the where Falwell and his church are. His 2 sons run it now and I never hear anything political in his sermons or of any organized protests by their students from Liberty University. Lynchburg is actually a thriving town with a decent art scene where at one time in the 1980's there wasn't a single place where you could go see a rock band perform. If this town can grow out of it's Fundamentalist religion straightjacket anyplace can do it.

What is NAR/7md or whatever you called it? I realize most of their clout comes from lobbyists working for groups like the Heritage Foundation. I kina lost track of what think tanks are carrying the Christian/right agenda. Can you name any for me?

reply to post by Asktheanimals

New Apostolic Reformation wiki

Forrest Wilder, an environmental issues writer for the Texas Observer, describes the New Apostolic Reformation as having "taken Pentecostalism, with its emphasis on ecstatic worship and the supernatural, and given it an adrenaline shot."[2] Wilder adds that beliefs of people associated with the movement "can tend toward the bizarre" and that it has "taken biblical literalism to an extreme."

Al Jazeera called the NAR "America's Own Taliban" in an article highlighting NAR's dominionism as bearing resemblance to Isalmic extremism in seen in groups such as the Taliban due to the NAR's language concerning spiritual warfare.[9]

National Public Radio brought the discussion about the political influence of the NAR to a national audience with their 2011 article. One of the main researchers cited in the article was Rachel Tabachnick, an independent researcher and contributor to Talk2Action, an online news outlet concerned with watching the religious right. Mike Bickle, Lou Engle and Don Finto, who are considered to be leaders within the NAR, participated in a prayer event call "The Response" hosted by 2012 presidential nominee, Rick Perry, on August 6, 2011 in Houston, Texas. This event is cited as a sign of the influence of NAR beliefs on Rick Perry's political viewpoints.[2][10] Other politicians that have been cited as having connections to the NAR are Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Michele Bachmann and Sam Brownback.[2]

These folks believe they can tell what "demons" are in possession of individuals, organizations, geographical locations, and so forth.

The Seven Mountain Dominionists want to take over the "seven mountains" of the USA, which are
business
government
education
religion
family
arts/entertainment
media

Here's a good piece about it from rightwingwatch: Dominionism and Religious Right merger Complete

the leaders of the Religious Right have now openly embraced Seven Mountains Dominionist theology, which is described thusly:

First, human beings are blessed by God. Secondly, these blessed human beings are given a mandate to take dominion of the earth for the purpose of blessing it. ... The first advent of Christ was for the purpose of creating a blessed seed upon the earth - the church. The second coming of Jesus will take place after this blessed seed has completed the Dominion Process upon the earth by making disciples of all nations.

In short, Dominionist theology believes that Christians are called to take "dominion" over every aspect of our culture and use them to create God's kingdom on Earth in order to bring about the return of Jesus Christ. And their method for gaining "dominion" is through something called the "Seven Mountains Mandate," which seeks to place Christians at the top of seven distinct spheres that shape our culture: (1) Business; (2) Government; (3) Media; (4) Arts and Entertainment; (5) Education; (6) Family; and (7) Religion.

One of the leading authorities on the Seven Mountains Mandate among the new apostles and prophets is a man named Lance Wallnau, and here is a video of him explicitly explaining how it is to work:

- See more at: www.rightwingwatch.org...

reply to post by wildtimes

2012 presidential nominee, Rick Perry, on August 6, 2011 in Houston, Texas.

When was Rick Perry ever a Presidential nominee? In 2012, he pulled terrible numbers in Iowa and New Hampshire and withdrew from the campaign.

Other politicians that have been cited as having connections to the NAR are Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Michele Bachmann and Sam Brownback.

Ignoring the weasel words "having connections", of these four, only Brownback is going to be in office after the current election cycle. Palin and Gingrich are not currently elected to any office and Bachman is (thankfully) on her way out. And Brownback is a Roman Catholic, not an evangelical.

As AskTheAnimals says, where do these people supposedly hold any sway? They're fringe political types, and seem to be on the wane, not on the increase.

reply to post by wildtimes


Thanks for digging that up for me. I hadn't heard of these folks. I suppose they're what's leftover from the old Assemblies of God - formerly the largest denomination in the US. Here's a bit of history for you: among those AOG pastors were : Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts and John Ankerberg. The first 3 you might be familiar with. In the late 80's they owned collectively something like over 200 satellite cable channels. They were getting immensely powerful. Collectively they were raising close to $500 million a year. At the time Falwell was making maybe 80 or 90.
Look up the PTL and Swaggart scandals if you aren't familiar with them. Both fell from "grace" in less than a years time. John Ankerberg went to Falwell to tell him of Bakker's transgressions with Jessica Hahn. After a complex bit of maneuvering Falwell ended up with not only the cable channels but the PTL theme park in Rock Hill , S.C.

I think the whole thing was a setup to destroy the AOG and take their members (along with the tv channels!). Swaggart got caught with a prostitute as well. Hmmmm... plenty of oddities in both these affairs. Whent he dust settled Falwell had it all. It wasn't long after this that Oral Roberts said "God was going to take him home if he didn't raise $20 million dollars".

Robert Schuler of the Crystal cathedral was mixed up in this as well. Anyways, I think it was their followers who have taken a long time to regroup who compose this one you listed. Pretty much the same beliefs, only a bit more politically inclined. About 2 steps removed from dancing with rattlesnakes. Then again the Zuni Indians do that too so maybe I should be so critical, lol.

windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Again, are you suggesting that members of "the Religious Right" should be denied employment on the basis of those beliefs?

If they can't control themselves, and can't keep their religious dogma out of the work place, then yeah. This woman needs to be put on leave and have a psychological exam before returning to her job.

Just because it has a christian tone does not make the message wrong. Either you serve the common good or you serve for corrupted money.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


So what was the message?
That God is upset that the US government isn't still shut down?
That big pharma didn't win the medical device fight?
That disenfranchised people will be able to access health care?
That the US will be able to pay their bills and people can go back to work?
That the global economy can breath a sigh of relief that the debt ceiling was raised?

Asktheanimals
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Thanks for digging that up for me. I hadn't heard of these folks. I suppose they're what's leftover from the old Assemblies of God - formerly the largest denomination in the US. Here's a bit of history for you: among those AOG pastors were : Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts and John Ankerberg. The first 3 you might be familiar with. In the late 80's they owned collectively something like over 200 satellite cable channels. They were getting immensely powerful. Collectively they were raising close to $500 million a year. At the time Falwell was making maybe 80 or 90.
Look up the PTL and Swaggart scandals if you aren't familiar with them. Both fell from "grace" in less than a years time. John Ankerberg went to Falwell to tell him of Bakker's transgressions with Jessica Hahn. After a complex bit of maneuvering Falwell ended up with not only the cable channels but the PTL theme park in Rock Hill , S.C.

I think the whole thing was a setup to destroy the AOG and take their members (along with the tv channels!). Swaggart got caught with a prostitute as well. Hmmmm... plenty of oddities in both these affairs. Whent he dust settled Falwell had it all. It wasn't long after this that Oral Roberts said "God was going to take him home if he didn't raise $20 million dollars".

Robert Schuler of the Crystal cathedral was mixed up in this as well. Anyways, I think it was their followers who have taken a long time to regroup who compose this one you listed. Pretty much the same beliefs, only a bit more politically inclined. About 2 steps removed from dancing with rattlesnakes. Then again the Zuni Indians do that too so maybe I should be so critical, lol.

THIS was what consumed my mother during my childhood! My sister and I were forced to watch these ridiculous shows, Tammy Faye's eye makeup running down her face from the river of tears she allowed to flow for all the "sinners" in the world is an image I will take to the grave! They were the first TV Evangelists and we still see it today, or at least a version of it. They make so much money it is obscene. Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar (interesting), Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer are all worth millions each! And who could forget good ole Ted Haggard?! He's a thread unto himself.

IMHO, it may very well be the Modern Christian church that is the evil to be fought in the End Times. Absolute power corrupts absolutely! Jesus watches from above shaking his head in disappointment, me thinks.

windword
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

So what was the message?
That God is upset that the US government isn't still shut down?
That big pharma didn't win the medical device fight?
That disenfranchised people will be able to access health care?
That the US will be able to pay their bills and people can go back to work?
That the global economy can breath a sigh of relief that the debt ceiling was raised?

edit on 17-10-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

What about lack of wisdom and listening to higher ideals and creating a new system that works and not one created on ego parasitism and dog eat dog built on direct democracy on the lowest level without politicians.

IMHO, it may very well be the Modern Christian church that is the evil to be fought in the End Times. Absolute power corrupts absolutely! Jesus watches from above shaking his head in disappointment, me thinks.

. Ill skip this topic for another time since I am in a good mood and do not want to flame the so called Christian church right now.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

What about lack of wisdom

Yeah. I heard the lack of wisdom in her rant.

and listening to higher ideals

How does shouting "He will not be mocked..." or " this is not one nation under God. It never was..." or " Praise be to God, Lord Jesus Christ" equals higher ideals?

and creating a new system that works and not one created on ego parasitism and dog eat dog

Hmmm. That part must'v been edited out! I didn't get anything like that, at all, from her (message) rant. What kind of "new system" was she proposing?

built on direct democracy on the lowest level without politicians.

I didn't hear her outline any such proposal in her rant. How is that supposed to work? Sounds like mob rule, to me. Anyway, shouldn't those kind of things be left up to elected law makers, not theologians and court reporters?

Funny how some people hear what they want to hear.

windword
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

What about lack of wisdom

Yeah. I heard the lack of wisdom in her rant.

and listening to higher ideals

How does shouting "He will not be mocked..." or " this is not one nation under God. It never was..." or " Praise be to God, Lord Jesus Christ" equals higher ideals?

and creating a new system that works and not one created on ego parasitism and dog eat dog

Hmmm. That part must'v been edited out! I didn't get anything like that, at all, from her (message) rant. What kind of "new system" was she proposing?

built on direct democracy on the lowest level without politicians.

I didn't hear her outline any such proposal in her rant. How is that supposed to work? Sounds like mob rule, to me. Anyway, shouldn't those kind of things be left up to elected law makers, not theologians and court reporters?

Funny how some people hear what they want to hear.

So if someone say something is rotten for their reason and I say it is rotten for my reasons the things is not rotten because or reasons are different? Talk about being argumenting just for the sake of arguing.

But learning to articulate what you mean have it's point also.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


Everyone who's been paying attention to GOP demands to defund Obamacare, threats and realization of the shut down the government in order to protect big pharma from a medical device accountability clause in the ACA and disenfranchise the poor from affordable health care, has an opinion on this state of affairs.

Because this women was able to grab a microphone and throw a temper tantrum, because her party didn't get their way, invoking God's wrath in the process, doesn't make her opinion any more valid than any one else's.

reply to post by adjensen


adj
Not sure why you're picking apart the source. Gingrich and Bachmann still have enormous "followings" - Perry is a governor, just like Brownback...

I had never heard of this group before last spring. It was news to me as well, and seemed incredible. I'm just providing the information I was given...

You don't have to believe it, but I think it'd be a stretch to say they don't exist.

reply to post by wildtimes

Not sure why you're picking apart the source. Gingrich and Bachmann still have enormous "followings" - Perry is a governor, just like Brownback...

But Gingrich, Bachman and Palin are not in office (in the case of Bachman, not for long) and the whole lot of them are all conservative Republicans of varying degrees of faith, they are not "Dominionists".

I had never heard of this group before last spring. It was news to me as well, and seemed incredible. I'm just providing the information I was given...

If you read the "Criticism of the usage" section of the Dominionists Wiki page and then follow the cited sources, including Newsweek and the New York Times, it is readily apparent that the only reason that you've heard of them at all is that they're a rallying point for some in the Far Left, who are using them to promote fear mongering. You said in the OP that these people are scary, but the only way that you can come to that conclusion is if you swallow the loony left's perspective, hook, line and sinker.

They are not in power, they will never be in power, and for the most part, this whole "if you're not careful, these people will establish a Christian theocracy in America!" is delusional. It's not going to happen.

You don't have to believe it, but I think it'd be a stretch to say they don't exist.

I don't deny that they exist, I am simply saying that they are being misrepresented in a deliberate attempt to fear monger people into taking stands like "people should be denied employment based on their religious views," which I find reprehensible, regardless of what those views happen to be.

reply to post by adjensen


5 Facts About Dominionism

(RNS) In recent weeks, an arcane and scary-sounding religious term has crept into the lexicon of the 2012 campaign, tripping from the tongue of everyone from MSNBC broadcaster Rachel Maddow to conservative Christian leader Ralph Reed.

Depending on whom you ask, "Dominionism" either signifies a Christian plot for world domination, or the latest liberal bugaboo.

Here are five facts about Dominionism to help you decide for yourself:

What is "Dominionism"?

The term "Dominionism" was popularized in the 1990s by scholars and journalists, who applied it to conservative Christians seeking political power. It derives from the Book of Genesis, in which God tells Adam and Eve to have "dominion" over the Earth and its animals. "Dominionism" generally describes the belief that Christians are biblically mandated to control all earthly institutions until the second coming of Jesus.

Experts identify two main schools of Dominionism: Christian Reconstructionists, who believe biblical law, including stoning as punishment for adultery and other transgressions, should replace secular law; and the New Apostolic Reformation, which advocates for Christians to "reclaim the seven mountains of culture": government, religion, media, family, business, education, and arts and entertainment.

Who are "Dominionists"?

Very few Christians identify themselves as "Dominionists." But experts say the New Apostolic Reformation has gained traction among charismatic Christians and Pentecostals under the influence of C. Peter Wagner, a church-growth guru and prolific author. Prominent "apostles" in the NAR include Lou Engle, co-founder of TheCall assemblies and Mike Bickle, director of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, Mo.

You can't tell me they don't have sway. They do megachurches, adj. That affects VOTERS' choices.

That IHOP thing here has taken over a southern suburb that was going down the crapper - and their 'disciples' go to restaurants and ask waiters "Would you like to join us in prayer?"

That's too much. That's obnoxious, and can be seen as offensive. What they believe in their minds and churches should STAY in their minds, and churches.

But we're drifting away from the topic. Asktheanimals asked about them, and I provided sources. You saying "it ain't so" doesn't make it disappear.

There has been a LOT of movement in the South, in particular, to push Biblical Literalism into public schools, and I find that "reprehensible."

reply to post by adjensen


reply to post by wildtimes


Just do a search on Christian Dominionism and politics, and you get a boat load of links that connect the tea Party to the movement! There's no doubt that they're in power and doing their best to bring about their agenda!

I wanted to do some research into the theological roots of Senator Ted Cruz, the standard-bearer of the Tea Party Republicans behind the government shutdown. Ted’s father, Rafael Cruz, is a pastor with Texas charismatic ministry Purifying Fire International. He has a distinct theological vision for what America is supposed to look like: Christian dominionism…
disinfo.com...

The Radical Christian Right and the War on Government

The Tea Party Constitution: Dominionism For All

reply to post by windword


EVERYONE NEEDS TO LISTEN TO THIS INTERVIEW!!

Thanks for posting it, wind!

"American Fascists" Hedges calls them. (Guess he wrote a book with that title!)

And that people who want to "write them off" as unimportant and insignificant are kidding themselves. One needs to look INTO their beliefs to really see what's happening.

Ted Cruz is the latest "in power" in the HEART OF THAT MOVEMENT - with LOTS of money behind him - their goal is to destroy the system, and they ARE serious. And they ARE real.

reply to post by wildtimes


I'm not sure why you posted a Huffington Post article about these guys as a counter to my argument that it's fear mongering on the part of people like those who write for the Huffington Post.

Here's what the Washington Post had to say:

“Dominionism” is the paranoid mot du jour. In its broadest sense, the term describes a Christian’s obligation to be active in the world, including in politics and government. More narrowly, some view it as Christian nationalism. You could argue that the 19th- and early 20th-century reformers – abolitionists, suffragists and temperance activists, for example – were dominionists, says Molly Worthen, who teaches religious history at the University of Toronto.

Extremist dominionists do exist, as theocrats who hope to transform our democracy into something that looks like ancient Israel, complete with stoning as punishment. But “it’s a pretty small world,” says Worthen, who studies these groups.

Mark DeMoss, whose Atlanta-based public relations firm represents several Christian groups, put it this way: “You would be hard-pressed to find one in 1,000 Christians in America who could even wager a guess at what dominionism is.”

Certain journalists use “dominionist” the way some folks on Fox News use the word “sharia.” Its strangeness scares people. Without history or context, the word creates a siege mentality in which “we” need to guard against “them.” (Sou rce)