The Obamacare Titanic Thread - Lets Watch It Sink Together

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posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 07:23 AM
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reply to post by ManFromEurope
 

So, I'm sitting here watching a military channel special on the Berlin Wall and I'm wishing the Berlin Airlift never happened and I'm getting this feeling some German guy is trying to tell me why US health care sucks and I think of the 20 yrs I spent in the military and how most of that time was standing down the USSR in western Europe and I am reminded, why I hate Europe and why I never want to go back. Do you want to know why US health care is so expensive? Because we have this thing called Basic Human Decency. People in German y should give that a chance sometime. Or is it that people in Germany are a "Master Race of Medicine" ? Cheers Pal !






posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 07:33 AM
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My sister is self-employed, with no healthcare benefits. She was very excited to sign up. She didn't know the details of the plan, so I researched it for her. At her low pay rate the deductible amounts would virtually make the plan unusable for her. I think a lot of Americans will be shocked when they get into the details, and realize that at their current income/poverty rate it will be extremely cost-prohibitive, which is a shame. I was ok with contributing more from my paycheck to help people for the greater good. The big red flag on this plan is that it is a massive bluebird for the private retail healthcare lobby/robbers. The Obama administration must have thought they were brilliant strategists creating a win-win scenario for the general public and healthcare providers, however as those of us who have dug into the details now know, it is yet another public fleecing. To add fuel to the fire, the GOP actually were right in trying to shut down or alter the plan, but they made it look like partisan, not ideological, opposition.

Doctors are also big losers in this scam. My personal physician, a truly caring and skilled medical professional, cannot keep up with regulations that tie his hands behind his back, that dictate how he will run his practice. He's literally not making the money his training and experience would merit. He is considering becoming a specialist or dropping out altogether! He said someone would have to be a masochist to invest 8 years in medical schools, amass a hefty tuition debt, then charge rates for services that are capped by the healthcare lobby!

Only the super-rich will be able to obtain quality healthcare when/if Obamacare is forced on all Americans. Ask someone in Denmark, where healthcare is public at an income tax rate of 64%, how long it takes to see a doctor for an office visit. You have to wade through a room full of people with illnesses ranging from a runny nose to serious issues, get at the end of the line and prepare to stay a while.



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 09:56 AM
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tencap77
reply to post by ManFromEurope
 

So, I'm sitting here watching a military channel special on the Berlin Wall and I'm wishing the Berlin Airlift never happened and I'm getting this feeling some German guy is trying to tell me why US health care sucks and I think of the 20 yrs I spent in the military and how most of that time was standing down the USSR in western Europe and I am reminded, why I hate Europe and why I never want to go back. Do you want to know why US health care is so expensive? Because we have this thing called Basic Human Decency. People in German y should give that a chance sometime. Or is it that people in Germany are a "Master Race of Medicine" ? Cheers Pal !




Not quite sure if you are giving me the finger for having another opinion about some things, or not. Wait, yes, I --am-- sure about that.
Why, thank you for playing the cards of our forefathers guilt against each other. That sure was necessary, as no other options to discuss were left, right?

Like showing how an extremly expensive medical system like the one in the USA is much more helpful than any other on the planet - can't be that the corporate's idea of healthcare is to help you unburden your purse from so much money that carrying it around might hurt your back or something..

Would you like to give some examples how those exceptionally high costs are justified?



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 11:44 AM
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The Obamacare Titanic Thread - Lets Watch It Sink Together....

Well both launched *on time* on schedule.

So did the Hindenburg.

So did the Enola Gay.



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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tencap77
reply to post by TDawgRex
 


That's a pretty astute observation! I imagine the Ebola, sorry, Obama administration will just farm the whole mess out to the Chinese to get it running. There is NO WAY the government hacks get this one right !. I give you the US tax code, or trying to book camp site at a national park as examples. In any case, The Ebola admin is probably looking to delay a working system roll out so they can get the max benefit of fines and the ability to inflict more pain and suffering on the US Taxpayer.


{{A sore thumb issue bigger than the statutory authority for the IRS Code enforcement. Thank you.}}
"How can I be charged, much less penalized for what I haven't bought?" Am I missing something elementally messed up??

A bump for both of you and Dawg, to whatever maximized extent is enthusiastically warranted... because it has to get better. There was a beer commercial somewhere that pushed,"It doesn't get any better than this." The beverage company executives who cleared that family of ads evidently never visited The Mall.

This scenario is beginning to make the back of my mind remember Will Peterson quietly running for it from Hannibal's cell, and down a seemingly endless series of switchbacks in the Red Dragon prequel Manhunter . I'm afraid too of being assimilated into this one.

My Midwestern hangover has nothing to do with alcohol consumption today. This is madness somehow, or I'm just not getting the logic yet. I trust it's the latter for now... but for pain inflicted I'm not even signed up and it's an adult pounder.
Emphatically, I'm as far removed from an analytical legal mind as a dead vole. I need a lot of help with this deal.

I submit that if the product (not even for sale but now mandated a tax) isn't even accessible, much less defined for cost in the beginning of this supposedly binding electronic contract-- and I'm charged for it just for signing in as a penalty is attached without a statement beforehand of the attached charges considered, for just "going away"...

whether the charges are defined as public or private debt is irrelevant. Forget the IRS agents... there just simply isn't any binding contract between the purchaser and seller, by virtue of no considerations specified.

AS FAR as I know signing IN or identifying one's self doesn't define one as a legal party, except as through acquiesence or deception. None the less, declining to sign UP by not accepting the terms is supposed to be the uncorker-- or release from liability to the instrument: at least on the Web I trust.
Of course, unless buried somewhere on page 465 (unspecified and speculative) there's a clause in the monster saying, "Here I am identifying myself with a computer and an Internet connection. You have my permission to financially hose me dead to whatever extent you see fit, for my just coming over to say 'hi'."
Wow, financial gonzo porn by electronic osmosis. Kudos fellas.


(Interim injection of confusion.. gee that was easy by now) Is this the reason it's explained the government can't enforce a monetary penalty for non-payment or even participation IN the Obamatax? Because it's not even a contract? Here is where I'll have to bookmark the conclusion that either the context or the poster is stupid, and I'll for now assume the latter is corrrect.

Gotta go through this again to see if the context makes sense from a different angle. I still can't comprehend the one logical disconnect nobody in the thread posted yet... including me in spades for comprehension.

The government is defined as a private corporation. Check.

The body for collection of taxes is a subsidiary of the IMF,
the Internal Revenue Service. Check. Different corporation...
but still chartered private corporation however legally bundled.
Check.

Another private corporation(s) providing a service have managed to get the charges for said service declared an unapportioned public tax by the Supreme Court. Check.
Did I miss anything? I hope so.

A commercial (tax) court administering a civil claim by the private corporate provider (plaintiff) of a public tax debt? Wait.
If the charges are being presented by the IRS, and as legally a bundled private debt on behalf of another corp...

Technically now a tax levy instead of a private charge for services; do we have sufficient disconnect from commerce, that the government itself states that a penalty accrued by an inability or other failure of the consumer to pay the tax can't be enforced . Check?

Is someone in the government trying to tell me I'm liable for a debt that hasn't even been defined for cost center? Who's demanding the funds-- the IMF, provider, Michelle's Travelocity bulk account, Val's Personal Checking? Aunt Muffy's Radiology School's Faculty Lounge Slush Fund? AAArrrgh.

All I DO know for sure (so far and until otherwise gratefully corrected) is that the IMF is going to initially demand funds for another unapportioned tax that has yet been even defined in the appropriate jurisdiction, and in the alternative to a table of penalties for services that have been declined. Throb..Tylenol.
If that rhymes I also did not attempt to channel The Bard.

I think we have a winner for even a bigger cash cow than psychotropic medication manufacturers... no thanks I'm driving.
But I want to stick around a little while to see what it does for you.

EDIT: This will be my only one, because I had to go back and cross-reference through it a third time: and make sure that pictorial diagram of Obamacare had all the right pretty colored boxes connected to all the correct administrative hierarchy lines. That's just the organizational chart.. and you want them handling another 1/6 of the Gross Domestic Product BWAHAHAhahahaaaaaa.
Good luck on that Rigsaw Puzzle... it's like all the space chess moves between Dr. Magneto and the Livermore computer in one frame; with the artificial opponent doing a Ruy Lopez on Sir Ian. "You shall not pass out!!" ROFL how I love him.
It makes no more sense than the bill does, and we'll be arguing the legality of the sucker until the sun winks out, God help us. I have to go pack some more now, because I can't afford to live here anymore much less buy renter's insurance.
Glad I have at least one good 3-season tent left. Now to find a part of the planet without winters. Wish me puck... I'm headed for Middle Irk.
edit on 17-10-2013 by derfreebie because: Epilogue: It was born to die terribly, and take us all with it.



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 01:13 PM
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reply to post by elouina
 


Just posted after having threaded through roughly half the posts. My apologies for laziness; may my increased sense of concern over the legality of the bill itself-- and industry of my verbose response nearer the end as of 1300 be penance.

One issue destined to remain on the hotplate until this political Ponderous Perdition Pancake burns to pure carbon.. the concept of being liable for charges to ANY party for not buying something.

It boggles even my wierd mind. Where's Mike Palin's orange curly wig... I'm lobbying for IL Soliciter General on the Extremely Silly ticket next month. It should be a mudslide.



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 04:36 PM
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Ok this all now makes sense. Wanna know why the website is crashing and burning? Because the project was designed for SECRECY!



Facing such intense opposition from congressional Republicans, the administration was in a bunker mentality as it built the enrollment system, one former administration official said. Officials feared that if they called on outsiders to help with the technical details of how to run a commerce website, those companies could be subpoenaed by Hill Republicans, the former aide said. So the task fell to trusted campaign tech experts.



The federal health care exchange was built using 10-year-old technology that may require constant fixes and updates for the next six months and the eventual overhaul of the entire system, technology experts told USA TODAY…



full testing of the site was delayed until four to six days before the fateful Oct. 1 launch of the health care exchanges, the individual said…

“Normally a system this size would need 4-6 months of testing and performance tuning, not 4-6 days,” the individual said.

Former official: Admin refused to bring in outside help for ObamaCare website for fear GOP would subpoena them


So this is what happens when you have one sided political control over a project. Creativity is stifled. Wait a minute, isn't this how a dictatorship works also?

Keep checking back for regular updates!
edit on 17-10-2013 by elouina because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 04:59 PM
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I am amazed.. and only think what a bureaucracy obamacare will bring with it.
How Fed sees Obamacare PDF




posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 05:03 PM
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The ship is still sinking... Yet more breaking news. The healthcare.gov website has a copyright issue now. I think the Obama admin should go down with the ship!



The latest indication of the haphazard way in which Healthcare.gov was developed is the uncredited use of a copyrighted web script for a data function used by the site, a violation of the licensing agreement for the software.



DataTables is free, open source software that you can download and use for whatever purpose you wish, on any and as many sites you want. It is free for you to use! DataTables is available under two licenses: GPL v2 license or a BSD (3-point) license, with which you must comply (to do this, basically keep the copyright notices in the software).

Obamacare Website Violates Licensing Agreement for Copyrighted Software


It appears the site is using open source software. But they removed all references to the copyright and author!


Copyright (c) 2008-2013, Allan Jardine All rights reserved. Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

---Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.

---Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.

---Neither the name of Allan Jardine nor SpryMedia may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.


BSD license for DataTables

I think the copyright holder should force the healthcare.gov website to cease and desist using their software due to copyright violation. This one company could accomplish more than the entire GOP put together.

So how long do you think it will take for the ship to strike the iceberg? Does anyone here have any predictions they would like to share?
edit on 17-10-2013 by elouina because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 05:45 PM
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ManFromEurope
Maybe you should ask "Why is medical help in the US the most expensive in the whole world?".


8.600$ per capita and year (Source) compared to 4.400$ per capita and year in Germany (Source).

Hint: It is not a longer life expectancy. Nor a better quantity of beds, physicians and so on.


This should be of your concern, I guess..


I have some sympathy with that. Too long has medical care been at the mercy of the big pharma who have grossly inflated prices of an end product down to R&D as a forever cost, not a reducing cost when going to market. In many ways, the Obama care is an intelligent approach in a 'free' market such as the US because it is still basically a private care system and any advantage then should be in the area of 'best' medical care, not nice sofas or a lovely view, and what facilities are provided should be on the tin. So if the IT system is up the left, feck it, and go and sign up in a medical centre. If the medical centres don't have a programme, then there is something wrong because there should be a subsidy for them to do so, (As if needed, Hippocratically oath speaking) as is the case for the call centres.
As a last call, how many people in the US think that illness is always lifestyle driven? It's a good catch, been used for a long time, not always true. How many people in the US think that genetic disability is a sort of curse, (Some people do think that)
How many people in the US/world think that a cancer cure is just around the corner, (It well could be) just as it could well have been years ago all according to the blurbs.



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


You got that right ACA (ObamaCare) is a tax to pay fot the National DEBT. Why is the IRS involved well it has to to with us the slaves as the collateral. " We The People" need to end the Federal Reserve Banks (FED).

Citizen's at birth are pledged as collateral for the National Debt!

Read it all here: www.viewzone.com...



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by smurfy
 

If you think about it, nipping and tucking costs should have happened before anything like Obamacare was initiated. We are talking evil empires (hospital systems) taking their billions in yearly "non profit", profits and buying up the world. I have seen this first hand in my city. Why not just lower the costs for their services instead?

last nigh I saw yet another first hand example of why costs are so high. I work at quite a few hospitals. I was talking to a RN and he said that when they work overtime, they get $8 an hour on top of time and a half.

Now I am not certain what nurses make now, some years ago, they made about $36 an hour. Soo, add in time and a half and the $8, and they make $62 an hour for over time. Crazy, but true...

Edited to add this correction...

Oh wait a minute, I forgot about shift differentials. You know where I work at, we get up to 16% extra depending on the shift and whether it falls on a weekend.

So lets assume it is not a weekend, but falls on the night sift (12 %). This would bring them up to $40 an hour plus time and at half = $60. Then add on the extra $8 and that brings the OT hourly rate to $68.
edit on 17-10-2013 by elouina because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 06:12 PM
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dollukka
I am amazed.. and only think what a bureaucracy obamacare will bring with it.

PICTURE TRIMMED OUT FOR BANDWIDTH'S SAKE...



Thanks SO much for the dig, Doll! I was looking probably in all
the wrong places for the .PDF, and you got it!

Now I can zoom in on all the agencies involved...
unlike that BuMP file that just looked like a rained
on street map of Manhattan.
edit on 17-10-2013 by derfreebie because: .PDF and .PIC trimmed from OR for bandwidth's sake



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 06:30 PM
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Just saw a blurb on the News that it was expected that 500,000 would have signed up by now...In actuality there have been less than 50,000 or about 10%. They interviewed the first person from Delaware who actually signed up... She said it took 7 hours from start to finish...

Good news it was a Canadian company who set up the ACA sights but claims they ran out of money and could not get more to really, really, finish the job.. Guess America did not have a company who could have done the job... shame..



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 07:00 PM
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This is the thread I was looking for to post my experiences with ObamaCare to date.

I saw the effects of ObamaCare to people who had insurance to begin with when I got my annual enrollment info for 2014 earlier this week. To keep the same level of benefits I have right now it is going to cost me $63 more per 2-week pay period than I pay right now. That's $1378 a year more for THE SAME INSURANCE I have right now. The increase was over 50% of the amount I pay currently. This increase in my portion of my health insurance premium is the equivalent of a $.67/per hour PAY DECREASE. It's the largest insurance premium increase I've seen in the 5 years I've been with my employer. I'm pretty pissed about that right now. My employer has also increased the amount they pay on their side for insurance. I was honestly expecting to be shook down by the increase in cost of decent insurance, it happens to some extent every year and has my entire life, but damn near $1400 dollars, straight out of my pocket, leaves me feeling like I've been forcibly financially sodomized and defecated on.Still got a week, so we need to see what my wife's employer is going to do.. Luckily, for the first time ever we are having open enrollment at the same time.

Even though I know that since both my own and my wife's employer both offer "minimum value health plans", I wouldn't qualify for any subsidies through ObamaCare, I went ahead and tried creating an exchange account. I did visit the healtcare.gov site shortly before launch to find out some info for some family members. I went to it launch day as well. The site is pretty but highly non-functional. Today was the first day I was able to actually create an account after trying every other day or so since launch. I live in a State that chose not to run their own exchange, so healthcare.gov is the site that will allow you to access the exchange. I entered all my info. It took more than 2 hours, even though I had all the information I needed at hand (couple of pay stubs and last years taxes). It was honestly the worst experience I've ever had entering info into an online form-answer 2 or 3 questions submit wait several minutes for the next to load and repeat answering and waiting till you get through all family members (4 for me). I have a decent DSL connection, and decent enough computer, so the fail was entirely on the other end. It seriously took over 2 hours just to enter all the info, and lots of it was multiple choice or drop downs and not entering data. So, I get an account created, get my info input, and in my e-mail pops my "Eligibillity Notice". It said I was eligible to shop for insurance on the exchange but since I have insurance that meets the minimum value requirements for coverage under Obama Care, I'm not eligible for a subsidy ( I knew that was going to happen, but I would be eligible for some subsidy if our employers didn't). So after getting this I decided to check my employer enrollment site and compare costs just to see. So, I logged back in to the .gov site and tried finding plans and prices for someone using the exchange who had the same income as me. Nothing, after going back in i could get to all the stuff i took almost three hours filling out, but absolutely no plans or prices for my area. I was going to compare an unsubsidized exchange plan to an employer provided plan on total cost since I know both sides of the employer/employee contribution on my medical plan. Massive and Total Fail with the Online exchanges so far. I can't even compare an unsubsidized plan to what I know one costs in a big group.

There are a couple of people I know who can't afford insurance right now who might benefit from this, but something that you can't even find prices and products on is of no use to anyone.



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by elouina
 


I agree with that 100%. I don't like Obama. I think he'll be an example to future presidents on how not to run a country. However, if he showed some humility and humble up to his mistakes and admit that he was wrong and that he needs help, my feelings on the man might be a lot different than what it is today.

But it boils down to this: Obama has virtually no real political qualifications except for dirty politics like his little "pay to play" scheme back in his Illinois day's. So naturally, you get what you "pay for". Unfortunately, it's not a few that has to pay. It's everyone.



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by elouina
 


Outstanding, el! No by-line for the engine, and what has also surfaced as sloppy, hard-wired DB access coding downstairs that's about as portable across platforms (portable, PC, mainframe) as a '59 Edsel bumper.
This is probably the reason things are quite as saaaLOOOooowwww as they are for access times.

EDIT:RIGHT HERE: This is no reflection on the professionalism of the Canadians who tackled this thing. They were rushed, and things were smacked together on a zip-bang time restraint. I've been on deadlines like that before-- and it was repeated more than once that the Database Management apps were NOT ready to rock by the projected launch time. The issues of portability and speed were for that reason forgone. I'm not covering anybody's **_**... it was ignored by the WH.

As Mike Rivero says, "What a convincingly complete and utter Charlie Foxtrot." I haven't done any downstairs SQL re-blocking for big gobs of database in several years.. but a peek or two at this stuff is reinforcement that we're not getting anything approaching what's being paid for. I for one would have waited for the database wrench set to be finished properly, than get what we got.
::END EDIT.. and thanks.

I may have some time in between packing jags tonight to give my personal accounting of cause and effect, project Obama-tear. And boy is it torn up back there NOW. LMAO
edit on 17-10-2013 by derfreebie because: Sore root cause and what a nice effect... molasses
edit on 17-10-2013 by derfreebie because: No rhyme given



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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I recently moved everything over to Tennessee. They couldn't verify my information through Experion (did you know that they're verifying info through a credit agency, which is probably going to be a huge hurdle for the people that this is supposed to help) so I called them and they said they'd send me a paper copy in a few weeks. I did this pretty much on day one. It's 17 days later, still nothing.

I have no idea how much in subsidies I'll get (probably a good bit since I made just over the poverty level this year), but we will see. We will indeed see. If I ever actually get the paperwork, I'll do a follow up and report some actual numbers.



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 07:22 PM
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While I think real, honest affordable healthcare should be made available to everyone -- from what I've seen/read Obamacare seems to be designed to fail.

It will certainly be interesting in the next months to see how this all plays out...

S&F, I'll be following the sinking along with everyone else!



posted on Oct, 17 2013 @ 09:53 PM
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AnIntellectualRedneck
I recently moved everything over to Tennessee. They couldn't verify my information through Experion (did you know that they're verifying info through a credit agency, which is probably going to be a huge hurdle for the people that this is supposed to help) so I called them and they said they'd send me a paper copy in a few weeks. I did this pretty much on day one. It's 17 days later, still nothing.

I have no idea how much in subsidies I'll get (probably a good bit since I made just over the poverty level this year), but we will see. We will indeed see. If I ever actually get the paperwork, I'll do a follow up and report some actual numbers.


Here let me help you out. Although I hate to be the bearer of bad news for a fellow ATS'er. Medicaid has not been expanded in the state of Tennessee. What this means is that your insurance will not be free. Although I suspect you will not have to pay a whole lot, and will be one of the more fortunate folks. But if you smoke? Count on adding about $1500 per year or $125 per month.

I calculated $15000 for a 35 Y/O person living in Nashville, and here is what I got. Remember this is just a guestimate.



$300 per year (which equals 2% of your household income and covers 14% of the overall premium)

edit on 17-10-2013 by elouina because: (no reason given)





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