The Really Ugly Side of a US Default

reply to post by ZiggyMojo


Then we have a big problem with a large embedded faction composing almost half of our government structure that is based on the premise of bigger and more ,and they will get in bed with anyone to do it too.While the other major faction is beholden to money and power,both are festooned with all the nastiest lawyers on the planet who have erected laws that barricade them from us all so they can play party games and there may be a controlling faction that wants a globalist agenda so they can take control of the world like some kind of cryptic Hitler,most likely using backs as weapons.
The younger members of the populace see traditional American values as a pain in the ass and a GREAT MANY prefer to stick their noses in a video game,cell phone and have a new 'Hipster" culture reviving the hippies of old,who are now completely infesting the govt,academia and media.
Counter these and we win.
Fail and the world is under their thumb,I don't have those answers.
I sincerely hope shooting is the not answer .That hideous reality would easily trump the prior civil war's horror because we do not miss.
If it did happen the military would win and would be running things,The govt would be rebuilt under their auspices.

cavtrooper7
reply to post by ZiggyMojo

 

Then we have a big problem with a large embedded faction composing almost half of our government structure that is based on the premise of bigger and more ,and they will get in bed with anyone to do it too.While the other major faction is beholden to money and power,both are festooned with all the nastiest lawyers on the planet who have erected laws that barricade them from us all so they can play party games and there may be a controlling faction that wants a globalist agenda so they can take control of the world like some kind of cryptic Hitler,most likely using backs as weapons.
The younger members of the populace see traditional American values as a pain in the ass and a GREAT MANY prefer to stick their noses in a video game,cell phone and have a new 'Hipster" culture reviving the hippies of old,who are now completely infesting the govt,academia and media.
Counter these and we win.
Fail and the world is under their thumb,I don't have those answers.
I sincerely hope shooting is the not answer .That hideous reality would easily trump the prior civil war's horror because we do not miss.
If it did happen the military would win and would be running things,The govt would be rebuilt under their auspices.

the amount of pain of this default, is relative to the wealth of the individual. the less you have, the more detrimental the impact. the more you have, the more protections built in.

jimmyx

cavtrooper7
reply to post by ZiggyMojo

 

Then we have a big problem with a large embedded faction composing almost half of our government structure that is based on the premise of bigger and more ,and they will get in bed with anyone to do it too.While the other major faction is beholden to money and power,both are festooned with all the nastiest lawyers on the planet who have erected laws that barricade them from us all so they can play party games and there may be a controlling faction that wants a globalist agenda so they can take control of the world like some kind of cryptic Hitler,most likely using backs as weapons.
The younger members of the populace see traditional American values as a pain in the ass and a GREAT MANY prefer to stick their noses in a video game,cell phone and have a new 'Hipster" culture reviving the hippies of old,who are now completely infesting the govt,academia and media.
Counter these and we win.
Fail and the world is under their thumb,I don't have those answers.
I sincerely hope shooting is the not answer .That hideous reality would easily trump the prior civil war's horror because we do not miss.
If it did happen the military would win and would be running things,The govt would be rebuilt under their auspices.

the amount of pain of this default, is relative to the wealth of the individual. the less you have, the more detrimental the impact. the more you have, the more protections built in.

There won't be a default, it's scare tactics.. Quit believing the talking heads on the TV.

As I described, there is plenty of money there to make our payment on our debt. The government brings in over 2 Trillion a year. They just aren't held accountable for their expenditures and we have billions in unneeded expenses happening monthly. When the debt ceiling raises it just kicks the can down the road. If it doesn't raise they'll have to start making cuts and those cuts WON'T be on paying their debts or their NEEDED expenses.

I don't think I have seen this anywhere else, but if does the Government have the "power" if it wanted to, to implement a repeat of 1933, and confiscate all gold by order?
I know a lot of gold these days is a fancy IOU of paper gold, but still, those pieces of paper hold value. The gold that you can "clink" in your hands is better still as it is intrinsically worth something.
So simple question: Can they and could they?

www.mineweb.com/mineweb/content/en/mineweb-political-eco nomy?oid=146305&sn=Detail

The reason I ask is because it would swell the coffers of the treasury, which would be nice for them...... but, also it would undermine even further those middle / upper class citizens who have had the foresight to protect their future?
Or am I talking hogwash?

Label this shutdown or slimdown any way you want. The monies are still flowing into the federal coffers as we speak. At a rate of about 200 Billion a month.

The interest on the debt is about 12 billion.

The only way it doesn't get paid- it's the law to pay that debt first above all other expenses- is if Omaba refuses to pay it. Shutdown or not.

I might support a deliberate default if we had a president that wanted to fix this. With Obama in power, it's obvious that not his agenda. Whatever his agenda really is.

There is more invested in the U.S. by non-U.S. investors than the other way around, I believe. Even it that's not right, any world court type seizure of assets would get the same response on assets within the U.S. in retaliation.

Painterz
Americans really desperately need to start voting for third party candidates en-masse soon before these entrenched identi-kit Reps/Dems completely bury you.

Third party candidated arent going to be elected any time soon.
I see today's Rasmussen Survey says that while 47% Think Neither Political Party Represents the American People, the fact is that 91 percent of people surveyed would still vote for a Democrat or Republican.

The public arent ready for change.

reply to post by alfa1


Or more specifically, 46% of 1000 people surveyed aren't ready for a change.
The poll is just not big enough in relation to the voting population to give an honest answer. If they kept going to 10,000 or 1,000,000 would the percentage change?
You can make stats say whatever you want them to, just stop asking at the right time...
"National Survey of 1,000 Likely Voters
Conducted October 12-13, 2013
By Rasmussen Reports"
I do get your drift though and don't necessarily disagree.

reply to post by nwtrucker


And on those foreign investments we are hoping we are able to roll over the outstanding debt by issuing new debt to pay off the principal on the old debt coming due.

The Treasury is scheduled to roll-over about $120 billion of maturing securities on October 17, $93 billion on October 24, and $89 billion on October 31. As the X Date approaches without action on the debt limit, one risk is that buyers of government debt will be less likely to participate in Treasury auctions and, for those that continue to participate, more likely to demand higher interest rates, increasing the cost of servicing the existing debt. The amount of debt maturing during this period will increase as Treasury schedules additional short-term auctions in the days ahead.

Source

But if those foreign investors instead chose to cash out we would have to pay off the old bonds in full, up to $302 billion dollars ...

If these auctions fail, then what?

Senduko
I don't get this debt ceiling thing, if they postpone and come to an agreement this will only resurface in a matter of months. I was watching BBC World and this anchor had the perfect metaphor for it.

It feels like groundhog day.

Thing is, as ugly as it may seem, the US should default, and end this charade we call a free and open economy. Or the US should just make a bill which states they have an indefinite debt ceiling. lol.

edit on 16-10-2013 by Senduko because: (no reason given)

The debt ceiling has been steadily rising since longer than many of us have been alive, I remember even as a little kid hearing Regan talking about it.. the thing is, they've never really made all that much of a fuss about it until recently. It's when the Republicans and Democrats are extremely partisan that they disagree on raising it.

We've been in debt EVERY SINGLE YEAR since 1835, the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times since 1962 including 18 times under Ronald Reagan, eight times under Bill Clinton, seven times under George W. Bush, and five times under Barack Obama, soon to be 6.

reply to post by miniatus


This isn't about the debt ceiling by itself. This is about international default on interest to debt we owe to our own citizens to the tune of trillions more than we owe foreign nations ...and they won't be happy with defaut either.

Speaking of debt tho.....Yes.. Let's have a look at that....

US National Debt in different contexts from 1976 to Present

If anyone, political or not, cannot look at that and especially the last 5 years on the chart...and NOT see the problem standing out like Waldo against a blank wall? I don't know where to begin?

Sure..we've had debt ceiling issues. We've not been in a level of debt to have true exponential growth though. We are now and have been for awhile. The only saving grace is interest being near flat line. When interest rates get life again? We lose our economic one.

Math never lies...it's what makes it pure and beautiful ..even if I do hate it on a personal level.

reply to post by Tazkven


Then default becomes an option, I guess. Perhaps even mandatory.

My point being the current so-called shut-down doesn't even have default as an option as it's law to pay that interest and we have the monies to do so.

I feel the "default" issue is being used to obscure the issue of the A.C.A. which this is really about and how it started in the first place, from what I can see.

Little off topic here:
reply to post by Evil_Santa


Well the USofA is not the biggest buyer of China product anymore Europe beat you at it and dont forget the Asian market the South America market... The USofA is only near 400 million of population vs 7billion in the world... so yes China can take a huge hit if USofA stop buying his product but it will not stop them to sell more in other part of the world.

reply to post by nwtrucker


All the government has to do is print more money.. Because all debt is owed in USD. We can NEVER default. We can only default if the government decides to do it. It won't happen. We are obligated to make debt payments first and foremost and there is plenty of money to do that.. The problem starts to happen down the road when our interest rates exceed our income.. Then we can't make a payment without creating dollars which = more debt because dollars with value are borrowed. It's a LONG way away, but we're approaching it exponentially faster every day.

The US won't default.. It's not going to happen because it technically can't.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Hello Respected Sir..

I do not have a lot of time on my hands these days, but there is something I would like to see done.

I would like someone to compile a list... first, of the United States actual income from taxes and other revenues that go into federal government...

Ie: What does this country make?

Then, I would like to see the list of the expenditures... I know there is one somewhere... Lets put it on ATS, I am sure we can look it over and debate and decide...

Where do we... intelligent ATS members, want to see the cuts coming from... and do we, rationally and logically, think we can run this country AND pay our debt...?

Can you figure out how to make that into a thread here?

reply to post by miniatus


Its not that unusual, did you know that in our country we are born with a Debt to our country? Thats one of the reason we pay taxes. unbelievable eh.

Obviously this thread didn't take off in the direction I was hoping for but that is ok, seems most don't seem to believe we are under financial attack from outside sources who may, if not sooner, then later come to collect either with lawyers or guns.

Pretty crazy thinking or as a previous poster said, it is just stupid ...

I didn't think it was all that far fetched at all, although I hope it never comes to pass and maybe we would have to be in worse financial shape then we are today, with neither the will or the resources to fight against a common enemy, maybe that will never happen ...

Krazysh0t
reply to post by Tazkven

 

Well I think we should default. Our system isn't working and causes much hardship on many people all so a minority can prosper. Let's default and if we go to war, we can fire up that manufacturing base again. I know it's not talked about much, but back in the 1930's it wasn't the New Deal that got us out of the Recession (in fact it pretty much had the same effect as Obama's "fixes" have had on our economy) it was WWII and putting everyone to work for the war effort that pulled us out.

Once we default, war would probably be the only way we would be able to remain as one country anyways. If we don't go to war, we'll probably tear ourselves apart or be annexed away to other countries. It's all going to suck, but in the long run, if we can pull ourselves out of it (because frankly I'm not sure we can we've let this problem get so large) it will be better for us.

You cannot mean that. By defaulting millions of disabled vets and retired military vets who defended this country will never see another dime. My husband has a brain injury. Without his va disability, and army retirement pay we are financially screwed. What have we worked and sacrificed our entire lives for?? Your opinion is yours, but, I do not agree.

I agree we have to do something. BUT do not remove benefits from our soldiers and our folks on social security. PERIOD. Those folks earned every dime.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


The first cut we need to make is cut out ALL foreign aid and close our borders. America is broke. No room at the inn.

We need to take care of our own. We need to build factories and make our own stuff.

I am so sick of this. I told a coworker today that it will take another WWII to get our nation straight and I am afraid I was more right than wrong when I made that statement.

We have to focus internally and tell the rest of the world "sorry" Bank of USA is now closed. Sorry.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


Well, I'll tell ya.. The problem isn't getting that data. I have it going back most of the 20th century. The problem is that it's several pages of columns across and nearly 5000 rows long. I'm not quite sure how to package it up to be usable and presentable?

I could just post base totals with some basic summary of how the numbers were built, but then...that shoots everything about credible sourcing and certainty of having the real numbers you and others would be after.

I've considered this..but I'm still at a bit of a loss for just how to post what I do have?

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by OpinionatedB

 

Well, I'll tell ya.. The problem isn't getting that data. I have it going back most of the 20th century. The problem is that it's several pages of columns across and nearly 5000 rows long. I'm not quite sure how to package it up to be usable and presentable?

I could just post base totals with some basic summary of how the numbers were built, but then...that shoots everything about credible sourcing and certainty of having the real numbers you and others would be after.

I've considered this..but I'm still at a bit of a loss for just how to post what I do have?

You could post the totals then the agencies/depts that use the bulk of the money...put it in broad categories IE foreign aid, domestic aid, transportation, mililtary, etc. It would be interesting to see.