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The Really Ugly Side of a US Default

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posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 06:43 AM
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Hopefully by this time tomorrow all of this will be a non-issue, the government will have reopened and the can kicked down the road for a few more months.

But what if it isn't?

I read something this morning and can not find it again but someone was claiming that the assets of American Citizens can be seized abroad if the US defaults, property, bank accounts, personal property and even your wallet. I wanted to go back to that article and fact check a few things but never could locate it again.

Not trying to fear monger, just a general warning to those who travel or live abroad.

Next up, What is the recourse for debt holders to recover their money? Can they claim US property overseas or even attempt to take control of government property within the United States borders?

How exactly would that play out? Can't see our Government just rolling over and letting another country come in and start seizing property.

Money makes the world go round and nothing pisses people off more than not getting paid. Friends become enemies, families feud and countries go to war, over money. Sounds like the making of a war to me.

Would we even have the money to attempt to hold off countries trying to seize US property? Would it become a battle of attrition? Who is waiting in the wings for the right time to topple the US?

As you can see I have more questions than answers and although like I said this will hopefully all be a non issue tomorrow, what about the next time? How long can we keep kicking this can down the road? Will the next world war be triggered by our dysfunctional Government's lack to pay bills now or in the future? Will our Children have to carry this burden years from now? I hope they can forgive us ...




posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 06:47 AM
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Well - if China tried to come in and seize US assets, not only would China loose it's largest buyer for cheap junk, but the US would have a reason to fire up it's manufacturing base and put people back to work - like in WWII.



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 06:51 AM
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The US.Gov will not default tomorrow, but it will smash the debt ceiling.

A default would be if it could not pay of the interest on its loans on time, as it stands just through tax proceeds alone the US government can pay these interest rates, the yields on government bonds.

The problem is that because of the way bonds work the amount they have to pay goes up and confidence in them falls, caused by a lack of market confidence in the US. Over time as the government has to pay out more interest and slips into a huge jobs recession caused by not being able to pay its workers. The on top of this the US government will lose its AAA rating and any borrowing it can do will be at a higher rate of interest. Overall all interest rates will increase and it will get o a point that unless it raises tax's it will be forced to make a technical default (not pay out the interest on those bonds)

When or "if" that happens then we need to worry, it wont happen on the strike of midnight tonight, it will take a little longer, probably the end the year would be my guess but thats when it defaults.

A scary thought for you, last time a major western power defaulted was in 1933, in Germany, three months later a guy called Adolf ended up on power. I am not usually one for doom-porn but as this is the WWIII forum i thought i might as well



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 06:55 AM
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reply to post by Tazkven
 


Sure they can seize our personal property to collect on national debt owed. The process they would follow is called a shooting war ..and I wish them all the luck, except of course, I'll be rooting for the other side.

To my knowledge, there is no legal method for a foreign nation to directly target the assets of citizens not directly involved in whatever the dispute is. It's like the lawsuits against Libya and Iran for previous terrorist acts. The suits go against the holdings of the Islamic Republic of Iran, not the Ayatollah...let alone some guy selling snacks on main street.

If push comes to shove and we're weak enough to make it possible though? They'll use the first approach. History shows that without exception over the centuries. Perhaps that's what some hope to see, too.
edit on 16-10-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:01 AM
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I don't get this debt ceiling thing, if they postpone and come to an agreement this will only resurface in a matter of months. I was watching BBC World and this anchor had the perfect metaphor for it.

It feels like groundhog day.

Thing is, as ugly as it may seem, the US should default, and end this charade we call a free and open economy. Or the US should just make a bill which states they have an indefinite debt ceiling. lol.
edit on 16-10-2013 by Senduko because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


I bet many do hope to see that Wrabbit, a few of them will posting in this thread shortly ...



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:04 AM
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This whole joke is just a power struggle, one side wants to be responsible and not jump off the bridge before measuring the water depth, the other wants to jump and FORCE you to jump before they do. This is all about control and the mid-term elections public view of the only opposition to complete government control of americans lives. Most people think that the glorious one will just stop at healthcare, this is only the start to total dictatorship, cradle to grave control. The lord obama and the great sen.reid will twist this to become heroes and the opposition is evil when the real truth is just the reverse. There will be no default, just like the ACA, things do not go from ok to total crap in the change of the hour nor day. this manufactured BS mess is just a ploy to demonize a group and make you vote their way so they have nothing to stop them from spending, spending, and roll the people off the cliff. Make no mistake, the last minute reid and obama will tell you they saved to world as they spend more than anyone in the history of the world, not improve your life one micron, pass no budget, and force their will upon the people. This joke is not real, my question is what is the thing that we should be watching??? distraction of epic proportions???



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:11 AM
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reply to post by Tazkven
 


Well I think we should default. Our system isn't working and causes much hardship on many people all so a minority can prosper. Let's default and if we go to war, we can fire up that manufacturing base again. I know it's not talked about much, but back in the 1930's it wasn't the New Deal that got us out of the Recession (in fact it pretty much had the same effect as Obama's "fixes" have had on our economy) it was WWII and putting everyone to work for the war effort that pulled us out.

Once we default, war would probably be the only way we would be able to remain as one country anyways. If we don't go to war, we'll probably tear ourselves apart or be annexed away to other countries. It's all going to suck, but in the long run, if we can pull ourselves out of it (because frankly I'm not sure we can we've let this problem get so large) it will be better for us.



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:15 AM
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reply to post by Tazkven
 


You know what I'd like to ask those people who want to see that outcome? What makes THEM think THEY are so incredibly special??

If the US comes under attack and it's while we're in a position we cannot fully defend for whatever warped chain of events brought that about? A % of our population won't be alive to see how everything turns out. I'll never be so arrogant or stupid to assume I'm among the lucky ones, destined to miss every way to die such dark days would/will bring.

So..while some of these people here and around the net cheer for something I doubt many of them even understand on a working level, they need to look around them...and ask themselves. If they DO survive what they so badly want to see? How will they feel about missing at least a % of those they care most about. A war on our soil will not leave everyone at the end, after all. We can't ALL be lucky winners....and some need to REALLY consider that, IMO.

(Not you..but you raise the point.
)



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:17 AM
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Americans really desperately need to start voting for third party candidates en-masse soon before these entrenched identi-kit Reps/Dems completely bury you.



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:25 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


I'll answer your question on this. I don't care if I die. It'd prefer not to, but if it is my time I am not worried about it nor do I care if it happens. We all die and being worried about it is irrelevant. I do however want to see our country restored to its former glory. The path we are on right now won't take us there. It is only after much hardship through default will we be able to start digging ourselves out of this hole. Maybe it comes from being a veteran and having served for my country, but I am ready to die for it to see it prosper again.
edit on 16-10-2013 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:28 AM
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This situation (which I admit I assume will be solved with a last minute deal being announced and the can kicked for a few months) eventually has to end. It can't continue for ever. Finite resources can not sustain infinite growth. America will eventually crash.

And when it does end, it stops being an interesting, political debate or a chance to make piles of money, or even a hunt for flags and stars.

It ends with very real people dying. Painfully, actually dying. And it will be the people who didn't even cause this that suffer most.

Is that worth it to rebuild the country? I can't answer that. I do wish everyone over there good luck though.
edit on k072810bamWed, 16 Oct 2013 07:28:57 -0500 by khimbar because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:31 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


I agree 100% with what you said Wrabbit, I also agree with others who I would assume are also US citizens that IF something like this scenario did play out and we had to kick in our manufacturing resources to defend ourselves that we may actually pull through such a dreaded scenario.

Where I work at, a rather large manufacturing plant built 60 years ago, word is that the Company had a deal with the government. When needed these 6 buildings and hundreds of lines and thousands of people would be converted, almost overnight, from mass producing appliances to making machines of war ...

I do not know if that deal still stands but I do not see why it wouldn't and no telling how many other large manufacturing companies also have that same "deal" in place.



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:32 AM
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reply to post by Krazysh0t
 


I don't obsess about death either. I've lived a full life and wouldn't have a regret on my lips if that time came tomorrow. However...I have a son I'd love to see enjoy his life as he moves into his teens ...not learn the fine art of moving without snapping a twig, because that noise might cost him his life.

These little things ...he never needs to learn. He never needs to be in a world where that thinking comes second nature. Not him. Not by my wishing.

So while I'm ready to roll with what comes and adapt to what changes arrive? I'm not wishing for it...not one day sooner than it will force itself upon us. I may not care much more for my own life than you do....but I don't have the right to look at the other 300 million people here that casually..at least I figure it that way.
edit on 16-10-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:37 AM
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Pretty deep in the pond? We will not default, we will be indebted till our grandchildren are dust and the non producers will govern over the producers till people grow some nuts and end it. I work 60+ hours per week, pay plenty of taxes and do my very best to not cause anyone any problems, I stand in line behind people who have all day, everyday, to do as they wish and look for someone to fix their problems, produce nothing but problems and blame me for their issues. we need not more taxes, just more taxpayers, And a complete recasting in washington. There will be no default, improve your day and flush out their BS from your mind, this is for the stupid people, not you Wrabbit...



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:42 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


It is a hard reality to face and your fear of it along with the rest of the country's is holding us back. I've seen many of the threads you've posted, you are well aware that the crash is inevitable. This hardship is coming, you are also well aware that the longer we wait the worse it will become. Well right now we have a chance to attempt a controlled crash to hopefully lessen the pain, yet even you are advocating further kicking the can down the road.

Keep in mind this isn't a decision I came to lightly. I've been contemplating this for a few years now. We need this. Otherwise we are going to tear ourselves apart. Look at how divided our nation has become. Democrats REFUSE to budge on their stances and blame the Republicans and Republicans REFUSE to budge on their stances and blame the Democrats. This isn't just localized to the politicians either. The populous is echoing their party lines like gospel. You see it everywhere even on this site. It is getting so bad that people are having trouble keeping civil on their positions. I've entered many discussions on ATS where people call the opposite side stupid or say they have to show other people how to live. It is all absurd, what happened to compromise? What happened to recognizing that your opinion isn't the only opinion on the planet?

It is funny, our nation crisis appears to be a combination of two prior national crises that have happened in the past. The Recession and the super division of our country during the 1850's. Look how we got out of BOTH of those situations, war. One problem tore our country apart and made us fight a war, the other was thankfully solved through an outside source. However war was inevitable and as a student of history, I see the same outcome for us here. We should buckle down and make sure it happens on our terms and not something completely out of our control.



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:44 AM
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reply to post by teslahowitzer
 


Wow, you could had just said you didn't like the hypothetical nature of this thread instead of calling everyone who posts in it stupid, sheesh.



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:46 AM
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Krazysh0t
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


I'll answer your question on this. I don't care if I die. It'd prefer not to, but if it is my time I am not worried about it nor do I care if it happens. We all die and being worried about it is irrelevant. I do however want to see our country restored to its former glory. The path we are on right now won't take us there. It is only after much hardship through default will we be able to start digging ourselves out of this hole. Maybe it comes from being a veteran and having served for my country, but I am ready to die for it to see it prosper again.
edit on 16-10-2013 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



I agree with you.

However, I do not think it will come out as badly as people think when (and I say when because it IS inevitable without cutting spending! ) we do default. We have enough money to run our country, provided we do it with common sense in the future and we can still pay our debt.

We cannot go the route we are, we must work on serious spending cuts, but we can recover from our current crisis in time without all the doom and gloom people think...

It wont be easy, but it IS possible!



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 07:56 AM
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I think what most people aren't realizing is there is PLENTY of money for the US to use and NOT default. We don't need to raise the debt ceiling at all. The problem is we have expenditures like the Presidential golf course and unneeded committees, organizations etc. Our troops are deployed all over the world and fighting "terrorism". Our government isn't managing money properly.

Think of the government as one person with debts and obligations. A person has a mortgage on their home, they've got to feed themselves and they need a vehicle for transportation. All of these things are regular expenses.. You could compare them to things like government Debt, Social Security and Welfare. The person makes plenty of money to pay their mortgage, car payment and feed themselves but instead of doing all of that.. They eat out at five star restaurants every night instead of just going to the grocery and buy frivolously or start new hobbies that cost them thousands of dollars. They start putting things on credit cards, and paying their mortgage and car payments with credit cards and their debt continues to grow. Eventually their cards are maxed and they need more money. What do they do? They open another credit card. Instead of using their income to pay on their debts and obligations, they're using it to pay for needless things.

Every time the debt ceiling is raised the government gets a new credit card. They aren't even slightly concerned about cutting spending to allocate more income to debts and obligations. The only concern is maintaining or expanding on the lifestyle the person (government) is accustomed to. If the government raises the debt ceiling, it's just an excuse for them to ignore the real issue and avoid financial responsibility.

Do we need to raise the debt ceiling? NO.
Can we pay our debt down? YES.
Can we do it and maintain the huge, unneeded government infrastructure we have now? NO
edit on 16-10-2013 by ZiggyMojo because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2013 @ 08:04 AM
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reply to post by teslahowitzer
 


Furthermore, our rulings on Argentina's default and letting Argentina's creditors seize that countries property puts us in a rather precarious situation ...


Now think of the United States in a similar situation. President Obama can't fly Air Force One to a summit meeting for fear that a bill collector will take the keys. The carrier Enterprise gets detained at Okinawa. The family car of a low-level consular official gets pulled over and impounded in Beijing. The Obamas' checking account gets attached by a hedge fund.

This may sound far-fetched, and the international debt experts I've consulted say it is far-fetched. But the U.S. government itself has said that some U.S. court rulings against Argentina — such as those allowing creditors to seize Argentine property here — could backfire against the U.S. The State Department and Treasury said in a brief last April that they're concerned that the rulings could encourage foreign courts to "issue like orders against the United States and its property abroad." That would undermine the principle of sovereign immunity that protects U.S. diplomatic personnel, embassies and military assets overseas.

Experts in international finance say a U.S. bond default, even if "technical" and even if it lasts a day, puts us in uncharted territory. After all, Argentina also thought all the existing consequences of its post-default settlement were far-fetched. Its settlement, which involved trading its defaulted bonds for new ones on which it has kept up payments, was drawn from the standard textbooks on Third World default settlements.
Source

I am not fear mongering, or saying I want this to happen, I am simply saying, "what if?".
edit on 16-10-2013 by Tazkven because: (no reason given)





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