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Blair/New Labour. Are They Any Good?

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posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 02:30 PM
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Well look mate no one is forcing you to debate if you don't want to.


I enjoy it.




going pretty well


So wait i thought i was talking to an Englishman but you must be foreign because i know not of any English who enjoy this Labour Gov (check the avatar) they just wont vote for the torrys through princple. However i intend to vote for them unless there's anyone better by the time im 18.




You say you don't especially like the tories but for all their incompetetence and the damage they did you'd rather them in anyway?!


No im not saying that. When did i call them incompitent and dont forget that things have changed alot since Thathcer but still due to her record they will be beaten by the traiter Blair.




- I think you'll find if you look that I have said a few times now that I don't support the war in Iraq.


And............




I note you chose to ignore the (true) story of the hunt breeding and releasing foxes cos they hadn't enough in their area to kill for fun.


Nope, just didnt see the relevance in metioning it.





- Righto; if you say so but it would also be completely impractical and unworkable; wouldn't it?


It would but did i not give a satisfactory replie? Cause its the best youre gonna get.




Same as it ever was.


No it isn't. In the past war has been slightly more justified.




posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by shorty

So wait i thought i was talking to an Englishman but you must be foreign because i know not of any English who enjoy this Labour Gov


- No I am not a foreigner and I suggest that the kind of enthuisiasm and support you seem to imagine for the UK political parties is a bit of a myth and a fantasy.

Why not go along, join one and see the reality of the parties on a regular basis at their local meetings?

I'd also suggest that I am not in the slightest bit surprised that you know of few, if any, who will vote for this gov at the time, why would you?
You are a long way off of all that, are you not, so why would you 'move in those circles?


(check the avatar)


- Ha, but it's only mildly amusing.


they just wont vote for the torrys through princple.


- No.
Many many of them won't vote tory on the grounds that many many of them - or their family and friends - suffered genuine extended hardship and were personally hurt in the wreakage of the last tory govs.
More than a few lost absolutely everything.

That kind of thing leaves a 'memory' in the nation.

Personally I think the tory party is dead, they just haven't fallen down yet.


However i intend to vote for them unless there's anyone better by the time im 18.


- It's a reletively free country, enjoy your liberty to do so if you wish.


......and no doubt the novelty of someone actually joining them (that is under pensionable age) will mean they welcome you most warmly.



No im not saying that. When did i call them incompitent and dont forget that things have changed alot since Thathcer but still due to her record they will be beaten by the traiter Blair.


- ......and the openly, freely and democratically twice elected (soon to be 3 times elected) Labour gov with Tony Blair as PM is "traitorous" because of what, exactly?



And............


- Well I was responding to your comment you made earlier "yet you dont see the Iraq war as bad."



Nope, just didnt see the relevance in metioning it.


- OK.
Personally I thought it relevant in the whole 'pest control' part of the debate.


It would but did i not give a satisfactory replie? Cause its the best youre gonna get.


- A 'military' that picks and chooses for it's self the orders it will or will not carry out is called a rabble, not the nation's legal armed forces under the democratic control of the people.


No it isn't. In the past war has been slightly more justified.


- Oh yes it is. In fact this war has even more legitimacy than any previous one in democratic terms.

For the first time Parliament got to vote on the issue and the intelligence reports upon which it was all based was subjected to public Parliamentary scrutiny.

Sorry if that isn't good enought for you shorty but these are the institutions we have here in the UK and they have - for the very first time - been opened up to an unprecedented degree thanks to this Labour government.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 04:08 PM
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I'd also suggest that I am not in the slightest bit surprised that you know of few, if any, who will vote for this gov at the time, why would you?


I take it back the pair of wollies next to me are going to vote them but why is that? Because the "lib dems are gay" and because "well, come on, look what Thatcher did".



- Ha, but it's only mildly amusing.


Mildly amusing? Now i know your mad. Its the best dam avatar on ATS BTS and PTS today. Thanks JAK.




- ......and the openly, freely and democratically twice elected (soon to be 3 times elected) Labour gov with Tony Blair as PM is "traitorous" because of what, exactly?


For this debate i surgest you check out Infinites thread.




- Well I was responding to your comment you made earlier "yet you dont see the Iraq war as bad."


Okay




- A 'military' that picks and chooses for it's self the orders it will or will not carry out is called a rabble, not the nation's legal armed forces under the democratic control of the people.


That war should have ben voted on at the very least!!!





- Oh yes it is. In fact this war has even more legitimacy than any previous one in democratic terms.


WHAT!!!! and again WHAT!!!!!!!! So going to Iraq to nick some oil is more justified than stepping in to stop the invasion of half of Europe. Thinking about it that took way to long to do where as Iraq was to quick.




Sorry if that isn't good enought for you shorty but these are the institutions we have here in the UK and they have - for the very first time - been opened up to an unprecedented degree thanks to this Labour government.


??? All thanks to our good Labour ???



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by shorty
That war should have ben voted on at the very least!!!


- It was, in Parliament for the first time ever, actually.


WHAT!!!! and again WHAT!!!!!!!! So going to Iraq to nick some oil is more justified than stepping in to stop the invasion of half of Europe. Thinking about it that took way to long to do where as Iraq was to quick.


- You were talking about democratic legitimacy.

In these terms this war is the first one ever to have been freely voted upon by the HOC.



All thanks to our good Labour ???


- Well lets put it this way shorty, all the know-alls before hand 'knew' neither Blair or the gov itself would dare put this to a free vote of the MPs.

When it was announced that there was to be a free vote the same 'know-alls' just 'knew' - with absolute certainty - that there was no way the gov and Blair (don't forget to personalise it at every step!
) could win the vote.

Just like all those same know-alls 'knew' that the gov (and Blair) would just have to be damned by every report into the intel and war itself (4 unprecedented enquiries into this kind of thing in the UK),

so yes, to an extent a lot of this is all down to this - good - Labour gov.

They may be flawed and a long way from perfect but they have established democratic precedents here that mean in any future war the gov will have to justify itself publicly to a degree never before seen in this country. Freedom and openness have been extended and the corridors of power thrown further open.

I suggest there is a lot of merit in that, but if you disagree and can see no value in it feel free.



posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 09:05 AM
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Yes i knew it had been voted on in parlament maybe i should have been more persific. This effects the whole U.K so the whole U.K should have voted. Plebs and all.



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