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Blair/New Labour. Are They Any Good?

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posted on Nov, 15 2004 @ 02:29 PM
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Has Blair changed anything for the better? Violent crimes are on the rise. Taxes are on the rise. He has sent our troops into Iraq, to die, not for a good cause but for a domineering American president.

We have freedom of speech but not tongs to speak with.

But who else is there to vote for? We really have a choice of three, none of which are diserable IMO those partys being Torrys, Lib Dems and NEW Labour. I doubt that UKIP, Respect or any other better partys are going to get in.

Edit: Title

[Edited on 15-11-2004 by shorty]




posted on Nov, 15 2004 @ 03:53 PM
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Domestically, Blair has been a better PM than the Conservatives before him. As far as his "follow America" foreign policy is concerned, he has wasted good work he has done in Britain, eg; benefits reforms, by making himslef untrustworthy and impossible to respect. We need a Labour Prime Minister who will not agree with the every word of an American president who oddly enough is at the opposite end of the political spectrum from himself.

[Edited on 15-11-2004 by CiderGood_HeadacheBad]



posted on Nov, 15 2004 @ 06:44 PM
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Blair and his Labour gov have not 'hurt' the people in anything like the manner the last tory gov did (repeatedly with the 2 worst post war recessions on record).

That more than anything is why they will win handsomely at the next election IMO.

It is true that both gun crime and violent crime has risen....but from a very very low overall level and the fact still stands that our UK society still compares very very well with many similar developed countries.

As for taxes? For the overwhelming majority taxes have not risen especially. In fact the overall tax-burden - for most - in the UK is currently less than it was under Margaret Thatcher.....and few would have described her as a marxist.

Thankfull we still do have freedom of speech....despite a mostly right-wing and foreign-owned press which, at times, pretends to support Labour at election time (mainly cos no-one wants to be associated with such obvious losers as the British tory party) yet they never once do anything but attack Labour policy (except for the occassional bit of right-wing populist stuff from Home Sec Blunkett) .

As for Iraq?
I think Blair was left with a tough choice.....and not the stuff that's been in the papers either.
Either tell Bush where to get off and see the atlantic alliance destroyed (a seismic shift in world geo-politics for the entire world) or attempt to moderate things now and ultimately preserve the atlantic alliance for a more reasonable time post-Bush.
He chose not to sacrifice something so important for us all despite the provocation. I think he was right.

I'd bet the house on Labour being returned at the next general election.....there is no way UKIP or any of the other small parties (except for those established small parties already represented substantially in either local assembly or Parliament - ie the Scot & Welsh nationalists) will advance much....oh alright then......maybe 1 seat for UKIP but I really doubt it and I don't see any of the serious commentators expecting it either.

Basically Labour, in my view, has yet to put a foot wrong in terms of hurting most people's standard of living. Public services are clearly improving now and there have been no recessions and there is no prospect of rocketing unemployment, inflation, tax etc etc.

I think for as long as that continues - and the tory party keep insisting on warming over 'Thatcherism' for the umteenth time
- the Lib-Dems will continue to advance - mostly at tory expense
- and Labour will continue in gov.


To answer your question of whether they are "any good" I think asks us to 'support' politics and political parties in a way we just don't really anymore.
I'd call myself a 'Labour supporter' but I would not attend rallies or any of that sort of thing.....like, I suspect, the vast bulk of the people.
They don't hurt me or mine and they leave me alone to get on with my life as I see fit.
That's pretty much all I ask.
The days of the massed ranks of the starry-eyed supporters are long over.....probably for the better too.

But anyhoo it all suits me.
I prefer the typical Labour instincts to the typical tory instincts any day of the week.




[edit on 15-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 09:09 AM
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So NL haven't hurt you or yours. What in Iraq, did you see todays morning new report, speaks for itself really.

So there hasn't been a massive bulk increase of taxes but all these little taxe increases matter too ans i hope you own a house or dont want one because if you dont, well your ****ed mate. The rocket in property prises will cause (if not fixed first) a large brake down of the economics in England.

Freedom of speech.........still have it. No! we dont.

We're not stopped from protesting, thats as far as it goes. Want proof? Okay, the hunting ban.

What countrys are you talking about?



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 09:29 AM
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I think Blair and New Labour have been better for the Uk than some of the previous PM and their retinues from conservative or labour parties past. But for me the man has no backbone to stand up2 the likes of Bush when they have obvious disagreements on Iraq, and measures to combat Terrorism. I would however like to see him focus more tawpayers money on issues at home like our failing roads, railways and general transport infrastructure (speaking as a civil engineer) as they have been falling apart since the tories before them. However I dont agree with nearly any of their views on political correctness in our society and their policies on asylum, they change what there about these days to much and it leaves me bewildered. I support them on Europe, but like most wish our boys in Iraq could come home rather than sit in Americas back pocket in iraq, but there's only so much 1 man and 1 government can do.....I would prefer them to lead our country than any of the alternatives at the moment, but I'd like to see him stand up2 Bush and tell him to stop pissing in other countries padlling pools. Blair or Howard?????? easy choice, Tony, at least he will admit to mistakes he may have made or failing he may have, he's only human and hes alright by me, if a lil misguided, but arent we all?



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 09:43 AM
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Lil misguided! Thats a laugh he's more misguided than a blind man conducting a deaf musican. He has made more mistakes than Pete Best, more cock-ups than a brothel and more unforefeeled promises than a glamour model. What is he doing with MY and your country? Or what, more to the point, is George Bush doing to my country???!!!!



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 09:47 AM
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Right now, I'm going to spout off a bunch of stuff, and all of it hearsay. I'm not from the isles, nor am I likely to live there for quite some years to come.

Okay, firstly.

Property values and housing costs are up. Not a big change from what the norm is in the UK. It's a friggin island, and populations expand, not landmasses.

Secondly,

There seems to be this overall air of 'our government sucks!', the same as here in the US. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Bush and Blair are in bed together.

That's really all that I can say about the situation there. It's all secondhand, too, so....*shrug*



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Loki

Okay, firstly.

Property values and housing costs are up. Not a big change from what the norm is in the UK. It's a friggin island, and populations expand, not landmasses.

Secondly,

There seems to be this overall air of 'our government sucks!', the same as here in the US. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Bush and Blair are in bed together.


Firstly,

True, but property values are going up and up. Somethings gotta give. The U.K econimy will suffer due to the incomptence of our dictator/s thoses being Bush and Blair, who are ruining our countrys (U.S,U.K) Bush insists on wagening war on everyone, they cant even stick to there own resolutions. To quote Greenday Holiday

Pulverize the Eiffel towers,
Who criticize your government,
Bang, Bang goes the broken glass, man,
Kill all the fags that don't agree,

Secondly,

Thats becuase our governments do suck.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by Loki
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Bush and Blair are in bed together.


Jeez, thanks man. Now how am I to purge this insane vision from my mind?



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 11:13 AM
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So how many supprot the Torrys

Blair that little lap dog following all his masters commands, what has the war in Iraq done for the U.K?

Intrepid, and you tell me to stay on topic!!!

[Edited on 16-11-2004 by shorty]?

[Edited on 16-11-2004 by shorty]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by shorty
Intrepid, and you tell me to stay on topic!!!

[Edited on 16-11-2004 by shorty]


Sorry man, a little levity, I couldn't resist.


Now, back on topic.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by shorty
So NL haven't hurt you or yours.


- No they have not and compared to the last lot they haven't hurt anyone at all.


What in Iraq, did you see todays morning new report, speaks for itself really.


- I have a pal out in Iraq so I know a little of what is really going on out there, it's not pretty as everyone, by now, knows.
But the armed forces are composed of volunteers and they all knew what they were signing up for.

The fact that Iraq is a mess after an unwelcome invasion/war is no surprise IMO.

I certainly won't be voting tory on the back of that though......that lot are ever more pro-American than Labour (no matter what deeply sad and ultra-transparent weasle-words they spout in their desparate attempts to opportunistically 'use' this war).



So there hasn't been a massive bulk increase of taxes but all these little taxe increases matter too


- True they do.....and just like they did before, the tory party would have been putting cigs, petrol and all the rest up.... like they did before.....you don't really think anyone thinks they wouldn't do you?



ans i hope you own a house or dont want one because if you dont, well your ****ed mate.


- Well actually I do. Thank you for asking.


The rocket in property prises will cause (if not fixed first) a large brake down of the economics in England.


- Prices have been climbing for decades. There has been a periodic crash every so often but this escalation has been going on for decades.

It's true it does make life difficult for those who can't imagine ever getting on 'the ladder'....but every generation thinks that.
When they do get on they usually end up enjoying the benefits they see this 'ownership' bringing and the value they can leave behind them when they die....provided their home doesn't have to be sold to pa for their elderly care.


Freedom of speech.........still have it. No! we dont.


- You do. You can't incite hatred or crimes but in every 'regular' meaning of the term you are one of the 'free-est' people on the planet.
Wise up, tune in and don't be such a drama-queen.


We're not stopped from protesting, thats as far as it goes.


- Yeah, so, to all intents and purposes you can say what you like about anything or anybody and you can go protest your point of view....see, free speech.


Want proof? Okay, the hunting ban.


- Look Shorty matey, Hard lines on this one, OK?
The people of the UK have expressed their view on this and it isa goingto be banned and the vast bulk of the people will cheer when it finally happens. The end.

Just like the 'freedom to bait bears or dog fight this is a 'freedom' a few 'enjoy' and wider society couldn't give a monkeys about. Give it up. Its over.

If you are really saying the sum total of the lack of freedom or fascism you see in the UK is wrapped up in the hunting bill then I suggest that on balance we don't have too much to complain about, hmm?


What countrys are you talking about?


- Do your own leg-work shorty. You've already been given a pointer in the other thread you started on gun crime.

By the way this idea you have raised of Labour destroying the economy.....how does that one worK?!

Do you not know Labour have managed the single longest spell of growth in the UK in over 200yrs?
Inflation is averaging at a post-war low of around 2%.
Interest rates (on these rising property values) are at record lows thanks to the gov's management of the economy (in stark contrast to what went before)
Unemployment is down to low levels some in the 80's & 90's thought would never return.
Government debt is down significantly.
Public services are clearly improving.
Britian is, at last, constructively engaging with the EU and Europe


I know it's dry as dust and rather boring but that kind of stuff isn't irrelevant, it is all about an economy miuch improved from before, where does this impending doom you foresee come from?


[edit on 16-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:13 PM
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Your not as wise as you believe, you dont see the powers controlling you. (Im not say im wiser) Do my own foot work? BACK UP YOUR ARGUEMENTS!!!!!!!




the armed forces are composed of volunteers and they all knew what they were signing up for.


Are they signing up for a unjustified invasion? Do they sign up in the knowledge that the joint and quite powerful forces of the U.K and the U.S will be used to take oil at cheaper prises? Or to invade, attack and kill just for some oil? Do they? SP Do they?.




have been putting cigs, petrol


Can you honestly say that would be bad? Cigs are going to be banned soon anyway. Petrol rises would stop pointless use of your car, which would cause more use of piblic transport, which would mean that they would need to sort that out. Also less use of the car would do the ozone layer a few favours!




It's true it does make life difficult for those who can't imagine ever getting on 'the ladder'....but every generation thinks that.


That i wont even grace with a explaination. I haven't heard more crap in my entire life, other than when listening to Blair election propaganda!




- Yeah, so, to all intents and purposes you can say what you like about anything or anybody and you can go protest your point of view....see, free speech.


And your telling me to wise up!





The people of the UK have expressed their view on this and it isa goingto be banned and the vast bulk of the people will cheer when it finally happens. The end.


The end................ No i dont think so. I dont like to think of cute, little, furry foxes being killed. I all so dont like to think of a massive increase in them because there nothing to keep the poppulation down, I also dont like to think of them starving because the increase in the fox pop has caused there to be a lack of food. Not to mention the trouble they'll cause in innercitys once the food outside is gone. They will become a pest much like the U.S's coyotty.




By the way this idea you have raised of Labour destroying the economy.....how does that one worK?!


I didn't say they caused it only that measures should be taken to avoid it!

I think thats it!!!



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:13 PM
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Your not as wise as you believe, you dont see the powers controlling you. (Im not say im wiser) Do my own foot work? BACK UP YOUR ARGUEMENTS!!!!!!!




the armed forces are composed of volunteers and they all knew what they were signing up for.


Are they signing up for a unjustified invasion? Do they sign up in the knowledge that the joint and quite powerful forces of the U.K and the U.S will be used to take oil at cheaper prises? Or to invade, attack and kill just for some oil? Do they? SP Do they?.




have been putting cigs, petrol


Can you honestly say that would be bad? Cigs are going to be banned soon anyway. Petrol rises would stop pointless use of your car, which would cause more use of piblic transport, which would mean that they would need to sort that out. Also less use of the car would do the ozone layer a few favours!




It's true it does make life difficult for those who can't imagine ever getting on 'the ladder'....but every generation thinks that.


That i wont even grace with a explaination. I haven't heard more crap in my entire life, other than when listening to Blair election propaganda!




- Yeah, so, to all intents and purposes you can say what you like about anything or anybody and you can go protest your point of view....see, free speech.


And your telling me to wise up!





The people of the UK have expressed their view on this and it isa goingto be banned and the vast bulk of the people will cheer when it finally happens. The end.


The end................ No i dont think so. I dont like to think of cute, little, furry foxes being killed. I all so dont like to think of a massive increase in them because there nothing to keep the poppulation down, I also dont like to think of them starving because the increase in the fox pop has caused there to be a lack of food. Not to mention the trouble they'll cause in innercitys once the food outside is gone. They will become a pest much like the U.S's coyotty.




By the way this idea you have raised of Labour destroying the economy.....how does that one worK?!


I didn't say they caused it only that measures should be taken to avoid it!

I think thats it!!!



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by shorty
Are they signing up for a unjustified invasion? Do they sign up in the knowledge that the joint and quite powerful forces of the U.K and the U.S will be used to take oil at cheaper prises? Or to invade, attack and kill just for some oil? Do they? SP Do they?.


Whether soldiers agree with a war or not is completely different, they get paid to fight and thats what they do. Could you imagine what would happen if soldierss decided not to fight due to the fact 'they didn't want to'.



Can you honestly say that would be bad? Cigs are going to be banned soon anyway. Petrol rises would stop pointless use of your car, which would cause more use of piblic transport, which would mean that they would need to sort that out. Also less use of the car would do the ozone layer a few favours!


I'm all for increasing tax on cigs, alcohol and petrol




The end................ No i dont think so. I dont like to think of cute, little, furry foxes being killed. I all so dont like to think of a massive increase in them because there nothing to keep the poppulation down, I also dont like to think of them starving because the increase in the fox pop has caused there to be a lack of food. Not to mention the trouble they'll cause in innercitys once the food outside is gone. They will become a pest much like the U.S's coyotty.


I support a ban on fox hunting, but people will need to remember is that the fox population will grow and grow and will need some type of population control method.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Britian is, at last, constructively engaging with the EU and Europe


Thats funny, Mr Brown doesn't agree

news.bbc.co.uk...

A certain Labour Idea 'Regionalisation' which was doomed to fail as it was burocratic and pointless is a prime example of our idiot Government.


[Edited on 16-11-2004 by UK Wizard]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by shorty
Your not as wise as you believe,


- Did I say I was especially wise, hmmm?

[qoute]you dont see the powers controlling you. (Im not say im wiser)

- Oh Shorty, if only you knew.

You'll be trying to tell me the Conservative party (or the tory-reject UKIP mob) are such a totally progressive bunch next, huh?



Do my own foot work? BACK UP YOUR ARGUEMENTS!!!!!!!


- Some things really should be so self-evident that I really should not need to be pointing you to the Home Office or Crime survey stats.
You could try looking at these sites yourself and not expecting even the most obvious things to be spoon-fed to you, you know.



Are they signing up for a unjustified invasion? Do they sign up in the knowledge that the joint and quite powerful forces of the U.K and the U.S will be used to take oil at cheaper prises? Or to invade, attack and kill just for some oil? Do they? SP Do they?.


- Let's not round around in rings over this, eh?
I come from a 'military family. I know what they signed up to.

Here's exactly what they signed up for matey.

To follow any and all the legal orders they are given by H.M.'s duly elected and appointed lawful government.

That's it in a nutshell.
They get no discussion, there is no debate and - in view of the 4 enquiries and the legal advice saying the war was legal that the gov was given - that is that.

Members of the armed forces get a vote like everyone else but that is the limit of their input in any of this under any UK gov.


Can you honestly say that would be bad? Cigs are going to be banned soon anyway. Petrol rises would stop pointless use of your car, which would cause more use of piblic transport, which would mean that they would need to sort that out. Also less use of the car would do the ozone layer a few favours!


- So you are all for those 'stealth' tax rises then? Ok.
You do realise that that does seriously reduce your scary 'Blair's 66 stealth tax rises!' quite markedly tho, don't you?
(cos many of the ones the tory's claim are for thing like each rise in cigs, petrol etc etc)


That i wont even grace with a explaination. I haven't heard more crap in my entire life, other than when listening to Blair election propaganda!


- Well whether you accept that or not I can promise you that people were saying exactly the same thing about the rise in house prices during the 1980's and 1990's.
This is not a matter of propaganda or spin or opinion, it is fact.

Sorry you find it so hard to believe.
(although I suggest you get out more if you really think "I haven't heard more crap in my entire life")


And your telling me to wise up!


- Yet that remains the fact of the matter......can you show otherwise?


The end................ No i dont think so. I dont like to think of cute, little, furry foxes being killed. I all so dont like to think of a massive increase in them because there nothing to keep the poppulation down, I also dont like to think of them starving because the increase in the fox pop has caused there to be a lack of food. Not to mention the trouble they'll cause in innercitys once the food outside is gone. They will become a pest much like the U.S's coyotty.


- Well we shall see.
I don't think you'll find the 'urban fox' is something new. That happened ages ago. There are numerous examples of where they are common now and not such a big deal either.

But you'll find plenty of expert advice that says fox populations will reach a natural balance without this idea of a countryside overrun by foxes coming about.

It is afterall a fact that certains hunts were caught breeding and releasing foxes so they could persue their 'sport'.

......and since when did anyone say the foxes would be left to multiply without control anyway?!


I didn't say they caused it only that measures should be taken to avoid it!


- You claimed "The U.K econimy will suffer due to the incomptence of our dictator/s thoses being Bush and Blair, who are ruining our countrys

- That strikes me as a claim that Blair and Labour are incompetent and ruining the economy and country....so, please explain - if you can.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


originally posted by UK wizard
quote: Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Britian is, at last, constructively engaging with the EU and Europe

Thats funny, Mr Brown doesn't agree


- What is this Wizard?
Where does this idea that there should only be the one view and never a disagreement within the EU spring from?
Brown has claimed that there are areas of the EU which could be working better, others within the EU say they disagree.
No doubt it will be looked at and some sort of conclusion reached. This is how it should be.

It sure as hell beats the tory idea that you run away and sulk and end up completely marginalised with the group.


A certain Labour Idea 'Regionalisation' which was doomed to fail as it was burocratic and pointless is a prime example of our idiot Government.


- Or alternatively it might just have been more about giving the gov a kicking because of the unpopularity of the Iraqi war in a vote seen as not mattering so much.

Regionalisation is neither new nor bureaucratic or pointless. It is about devolving power away from the centre to the areas most affected by that power so that the decisions made can be better suited to the place where they will apply.

You could consider why businesses in the north east and west are mostly for the idea.
They can see the problem of having to deal with London hundreds of miles away and clear the benefits their near neighbours in Scotland and Wales are gaining from their devolved much closer administration.

Funny how those so opposed to devolved power in the UK go on about how power shouldn't be allowed to accumulate at the centre within the EU; you could try being more consistent!







[edit on 16-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Jeez, thanks man. Now how am I to purge this insane vision from my mind?


I though that that "kind of stuff" was voted out in US this elections.


Now for the UK members, I Blair a good leader, at least Americans see him as a good prime minister.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 02:17 PM
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'ere we go again..............

Our leaders are incompitent! Our economy will suffer as an effort. I didn't blame them totally.

Not more about the torys, please. The torys shouldn't be in but in my eyes rather the devil we dont know than the devil we do.

I was for the fox hunting ban also but i see the advantages of a bunch of rich people killing things, its ironic really, SP you say that a hunting bans good and yet you dont see the Iraq war as bad. Its still hunting defenseless being.

No the urban fox isn't somthing new, nor is it too uncommon but do you want as many of these urban foxes as could be possible. Id add a link on that but you do need to do your own foot work. I dont want to hand you everything on a spoon, you see and somethings are really selfevident.




- Yet that remains the fact of the matter......can you show otherwise?


er?............




- Well whether you accept that or not I can promise you that people were saying exactly the same thing about the rise in house prices during the 1980's and 1990's.


Not in quite the same way though.


What do you mean how would the world be if armys chose what wars to fight? It would be great. Dont forget that our soliders shouldn't have to choose. Our government should do it for them.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by shorty
'ere we go again..............


- Well look mate no one is forcing you to debate if you don't want to.



Our leaders are incompitent! Our economy will suffer as an effort. I didn't blame them totally.


- Could you possibly be any more evasive, contradictory or vague?
You said Labour was goingto damge the economy, I replied with facts that things are actually going pretty well, especially when set against the recent historical record.

Feel free to back your claims if you can.


Not more about the torys, please. The torys shouldn't be in but in my eyes rather the devil we dont know than the devil we do.


- So you don't wish to debate the context?

You say you don't especially like the tories but for all their incompetetence and the damage they did you'd rather them in anyway?!
Wow. That's some reasoning.


I was for the fox hunting ban also but i see the advantages of a bunch of rich people killing things, its ironic really, SP you say that a hunting bans good and yet you dont see the Iraq war as bad. Its still hunting defenseless being.


- I think you'll find if you look that I have said a few times now that I don't support the war in Iraq.


No the urban fox isn't somthing new, nor is it too uncommon but do you want as many of these urban foxes as could be possible. Id add a link on that but you do need to do your own foot work. I dont want to hand you everything on a spoon, you see and somethings are really selfevident.


-
.
Don't worry shorty, I can find plenty of people who not only dispute the idea that with hunting gone there will be no control over fox numbers.....that is plain wrong.....and who say number are not goingto go crazy.

I note you chose to ignore the (true) story of the hunt breeding and releasing foxes cos they hadn't enough in their area to kill for fun.


Not in quite the same way though.


- What are you talking about shorty?
Of course the whole issue of price escalation and affordability was talked about in the same way! The numbers changed in relation to prices and earnings but what other way is there to discuss the matter of rising prices and ever more demanding deposits and payments?

Have you heard people discussing 'inheritable' mortgages lately? 'Cos they were being discussed back then.

Also whereas prices are high now prices and repayments were sky high then owing to the central bank interest rate being at 12% for over a year, peaking at 15% and the mortgage rates being correspondingly higher!


What do you mean how would the world be if armys chose what wars to fight? It would be great.


- Righto; if you say so but it would also be completely impractical and unworkable; wouldn't it?


Dont forget that our soliders shouldn't have to choose. Our government should do it for them.


- They don't and they did. Same as it ever was.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 08:57 AM
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Didn't ignore it, just thought it was of little relavence.




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