Does Domestication Suggest a God?

Domesticated animals are different than wild animals, I can't reference the National Geographic that discussed this, but they had an article about the genetics of domestication, that only those animals with the genetic expression to be domesticated can be domesticated.

That's why, for instance, there are no domesticated wolves, or lions, or tigers, but following the genetics of other domesticated animals the Russians discovered you can domesticate the Fox which they have.

But, on this note, I just found it profoundly odd that Evolution could provide for such a genetic expression, and across so many unrelated species, just for the sole purpose of being utilized by mankind. My thoughts are that they were created to be utilized.

FreeMason
That's why, for instance, there are no domesticated wolves, or lions, or tigers, but following the genetics of other domesticated animals the Russians discovered you can domesticate the Fox which they have.

Dogs and cats

Although there is an argument that dogs (wolves) domesticated humans ....

reply to post by FreeMason


Tigers, wolves, and bears have all been domesticated to some extent. I mean, it's been proven that they can be. You know, zoos and stuff. Exotic pets. Trained stunt animals. They have to be conditioned, trained, just the same as a human being. What we call "raising", others call "training".

reply to post by FreeMason


I don't know about that. Evolution is more the survival of the fittest approach. Domesticated animals don't really fit that mold.

AndyMayhew

FreeMason
That's why, for instance, there are no domesticated wolves, or lions, or tigers, but following the genetics of other domesticated animals the Russians discovered you can domesticate the Fox which they have.

Dogs and cats

Although there is an argument that dogs (wolves) domesticated humans ....

edit on 14-10-2013 by AndyMayhew because: (no reason given)

You can't domesticate a wolf, dogs are not "domesticated" wolves they are incompatible species.

If you breed wolf into dog too much you erase the domestication of the dog, which is why often you can only have half-wolf breeds at most, without special licenses.

Now aside from correcting you...

There is absolutely NO mechanism in evolutionary process to create 'domestication' traits. Domestication has only happened for the last 15,000 years and domesticated animals and plants were discovered simultaneously.

How could that happen through "evolution".

Apparently despite reading my OP that domestication is genetic and has nothing to do with process, people still under the impression domestication is some kind of process of throw a dog a bone and teach him tricks.

Domestication only occurs if the animal is genetically built for it, domestication also has gene expressions such as shape of back and tail, how the ears look, etc.

Domestication takes generations of breeding to express the gene more fully. It's not something you can teach to a first generation undomesticated animal (such as the Fox). It takes about 20 generations, and only those animals with the genes for it.

reply to post by FreeMason



You find it hard to believe that certain animals would have adapted to form symbiotic relationships to humans? So this means that there must be some invisible hand that made these animals just for humans, because we're so super special?

Nature is full of species that are co exist and have adapted symbiotic relationships. Over the years depending on the situation, both plants and animals adapt to each other's existence. Domestication is just another result of two species living in each other's presence.

Let me explain why small house cats have gradually become domesticated instead of large wild mountain lions:

www.youtube.com...
vs

www.youtube.com...

I assume that Humans just domesticated the animals that were worth domesticating and were docile/pliable enough for them to achieve this aim.
I don't think that suggests a God, but rather how adaptable and ingenuous Humans are.

OrphanApology
reply to post by FreeMason

 

You find it hard to believe that certain animals would have adapted to form symbiotic relationships to humans? So this means that there must be some invisible hand that made these animals just for humans, because we're so super special?

Nature is full of species that are co exist and have adapted symbiotic relationships. Over the years depending on the situation, both plants and animals adapt to each other's existence. Domestication is just another result of two species living in each other's presence.

Let me explain why small house cats have gradually become domesticated instead of large wild mountain lions:

www.youtube.com...
vs

www.youtube.com...

edit on 14-10-2013 by OrphanApology because: d

I don't think you seem to understand that there is a difference between what you're proposing (evolution of genes favoring domestication) and what we actually observe (domestication of numerous animals across the animal kingdom, across time and space).

How is it that Cattle, Goats, Chickens, Cats, Dogs, Horses, etc., are all able to be domesticated and all so suddenly? Humans haven't been on the Earth long enough to influence animal evolution more or less, and even if we have, why that influence?

Notice cats did not become domesticated by dogs, or by horses.

Animals do not domesticate each other.

There is absolutely no input for this.

TheOutcast
I assume that Humans just domesticated the animals that were worth domesticating and were docile/pliable enough for them to achieve this aim.
I don't think that suggests a God, but rather how adaptable and ingenuous Humans are.

No, we domesticated the animals that CAN be domesticated.

What don't you people understand about this?

If we could create domestication we could do it with any animal we wish.

reply to post by FreeMason


That is absolutely NOT true. There are multiple instances of animals utilizing other animals, insects other insects, plants utilizing insects, insects utilizing plants... so on and so forth. Symbiotic relationships are EVERYWHERE in the world/nature.

Here is a video of ants milking aphids:

www.youtube.com...

FreeMason

AndyMayhew

FreeMason
That's why, for instance, there are no domesticated wolves, or lions, or tigers, but following the genetics of other domesticated animals the Russians discovered you can domesticate the Fox which they have.

Dogs and cats

Although there is an argument that dogs (wolves) domesticated humans ....

edit on 14-10-2013 by AndyMayhew because: (no reason given)

You can't domesticate a wolf

Well the argument is that wolves domesticated humans

dogs are not "domesticated" wolves they are incompatible species.

Dogs are domesticated wolves and can sucessfully breed with wolves, just as domestic cats can breed with wild cats (and may be causing the pure wild species to become extinct)

If you breed wolf into dog too much you erase the domestication of the dog, which is why often you can only have half-wolf breeds at most, without special licenses.

Obvuously it works the other way around - unless you think your neighbours all own wolves?

There is absolutely NO mechanism in evolutionary process to create 'domestication' traits. Domestication has only happened for the last 15,000 years and domesticated animals and plants were discovered simultaneously.

They weren't 'discovered' - they are the result of genetic modification. Just in the past we did it slowly.

Domestication only occurs if the animal is genetically built for it, domestication also has gene expressions such as shape of back and tail, how the ears look, etc.

So elephants are genetically built for domestication, despite having very different ears to guinea pigs?

Domestication takes generations of breeding to express the gene more fully. It's not something you can teach to a first generation undomesticated animal (such as the Fox). It takes about 20 generations, and only those animals with the genes for it.

I agree, it takes time. Not sure where 20 generations come from? I reckon it took longer with humans

OrphanApology
reply to post by FreeMason

 

That is absolutely NOT true. There are multiple instances of animals utilizing other animals, insects other insects, plants utilizing insects, insects utilizing plants... so on and so forth. Symbiotic relationships are EVERYWHERE in the world/nature.

Here is a video of ants milking aphids:

www.youtube.com...

This is not an example of domestication, not even in the slightest bit. The aphid does not have a gene expression that allows it to work with the ant. That's like saying that the Predator has domesticated its prey.

reply to post by FreeMason


Aphids gene expression in regard to "domestication" has not been studied. You are making assumptions on completely unknown data.

reply to post by FreeMason


To answer your question directly, no.

Domestication isn't genetic. However, temperament, to a point, is. Domestication is leared behavoir, just as surviving in the wild is. Domestication is lost quickly when animals are left to fend for themselves and complete "wildness" returns in three generations or less. The domesticated animals don't die out, that is why there are millions of feral dogs, cats, and pigs in America alone.

Also, there are millions of examples of domesticated wolves, tigers, et al. in the world, as pets and performers... ever been to a circus or zoo?

reply to post by FreeMason



Some animals are docile enough for us to exploit, some aren't, and some aren't worth the hassle.
If I'm missing some point here, please, educate me, but don't be rude, it's childish.

Double post

FreeMason

OrphanApology
The aphid does not have a gene expression that allows it to work with the ant.

How do you know?

What does the gene expression that allows a dolphin to work with a dog look like?

Andy we didn't genetically alter the domestication trait into the animals of preference.

The domestication gene already exists, refer to the Fox. It is precisely by finding this gene, how the Russians found that the Fox is another animal that can be domesticated.

If national geographic didn't require a log in I'd cite them, but I'm sure you can just do a google search to clarify your error.

TheOutcast
reply to post by FreeMason

 

Some animals are docile enough for us to exploit, some aren't, and some aren't worth the hassle.
If I'm missing some point here, please, educate me, but don't be rude, it's childish.

The point you're missing is that some animals can actually be domesticated. It's not just a peaceful easy to tame animal...for instance a deer is pretty tame but you can't really keep a deer in your yard it's just too wild.

Perhaps it would help if you'd relate more to a wild animal, what actually is wild. A dog hanging around a human is a domesticated trait, their cousins Coyotes don't hang around humans.

Bees are an example of a non-domesticated creature, we simply manipulate them and their environment to keep bees, but they'll still sting without hesitation.

Domestication has many more expressions, for instance how a dog's tale behaves from that of a wolf to that of a domesticated dog. The wild versus the domesticated.

I really have to go, so think about it, and try and further my discussion, cuz it's more than just we found some docile animal and tamed it.

reply to post by FreeMason


God didn't create Dogs, Man most certainly did.


Camp Wolves > Proto Dog

We changed their DNA through human breast milk, the skull of the wolf began to change shape.

Also Oxytocin played a major role in it, its the "trust hormone". Physical contact jump starts the flow of the hormone. The same hormone plays the role in infant / mother bonding.

io9.com...






Add that with 40k years of selective breeding.