Value of Aleister Crowley's Occult

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posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 01:42 AM
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(this is the 'Tree of Life,' stemming from the Kabbalah)

I have had a bit of an ongoing obsession with trying to understand Aleister Crowley, and his 'Occult' understanding. I don't know what it is, but I have always felt he had something incredible to offer, if you could only understand what the hell he was talking about. Looking at liber 777, and this endless list of correspondences, at first seemed completely meaningless. But I continued to try to understand his formulation of the tree of life, as well as what the POINT in all these tables of correspondences, what it all really meant. At a certain point, I felt that I understood what he was getting at, just what any of it meant at all, how it could potentially be used. Though this sounds to be almost nothing, even seeing what he meant at all seemed to be an important accomplishment to me. I felt I could proceed to understand more of the specifics, and this would lead to some big benefits.

So, I continued to study his tree of life. I continued to study the correspondences. This led to me trying to do some further research, independent of him, on the general meanings of Gods from various religions, astrological signs, tarot cards, etc. I contemplated how the tarot cards, with their hebrew letter correspondences, are supposed to represent the paths between the sefiroth of the kabbalah, and the meaning. I considered the various correspondences that meant anything to me at all. And this is what he recommends. Just keep studying it. Memorize the correspondences. If you do this, he says, your mind will become ripe and formulated, and great understanding will dawn upon you.

Over and over I was left feeling like none of it really meant anything to me, like it was almost completely arbitrary what the correspondences were, since none of it really meant anything to me yet, and so it's just arbitrary symbols. But I just had this feeling like it had great value. It has always interested me so much. So I kept trying to understand. I find myeslf often thinking of the tree of life, trying to compare it to various things I come across in life, and consider the correspondences, and the meanings. From time to time I feel it helps me gain some insight into something, and this gives me that enjoyable feeling of spiritual insight for a short period of time, and then I am left with seemingly no gain. After having this little obsession in the back of my head for a long time, I can't really say I've gained anything. I am not left feeling that it is all that meaningful, or that I have gained much for learning it.

Part of me says, as it has since I was introduced to the system, I just have to study and contemplate it more. Another part of me notes how much time I have already spent doing that, with very little seeming benefits, and therefore it seems like any time I devote to that is just a waste of time. Are any of you familiar with all of this? What say you?
edit on 14-10-2013 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)
edit on 14-10-2013 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 01:48 AM
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Crowley: The worst thing to happen to esoteric studies since Christianity.

2nd.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 02:15 AM
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reply to post by TheJourney
 


Howdy,

I know that this isn't fashionable, as people want all
the blinky lights and whirlygigs.. but it's learning to
balance the rational and unconscious mind properly
(also called discrimination, devotion and surrender),
that have the power to vault one into a new way of
living and being.

And what's the thing which keeps us ALL from doing
this? Why it is modern society and in particular mystical
systems, religious systems, philosophy and other
fixations which take us away from the flow of life.

It's all the little symbols.. all the little arrows and
diagrams.. at least when used incorrectly which
ARE the barrier that keeps us prisoner.

The 'dark angel' guarding the gate as it were..
(threw that in for some of the secret society
members here in ATS).

It's all this psychological debris.. which craps
up the entire mechanism... and it's an accumulation
of our personal and societal accumulation of crud.

Now, we do need to use symbols sparingly, to
enhance communications between the conscious
and unconscious. But the more symbols in the
system, the more likely you crap yourself up.

I'd have to say that Crowley loved his symbols.

Now I know that some 'magicians' love their
little correspondences.. and want to play
with the lesser and greater key of Solomon
and the enochian chants and all THAT..
and illuminated Hewbrew letters and
hidden sephiroths and all that jazz..

OR

You could follow a path which strengthens
purifies and unifies all that you are, without
all the baked in confusion and deception.
Maybe something along the lines of yoga..
or Tao but then you'll be prey to the BS and
corruptions in those systems.

It's a minefield my friend.. could take
a person a lifetime.. that's why you
see so many crazy systems, and so
many hurting innocents.

If you don't mind my asking.. what is
your objective in walking some mystical
or 'magical' path?

KPB



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 02:49 AM
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reply to post by TheJourney
 


I think I can help, I wrote some threads to address some of these issues directly.

Of course I could add a ton more and probably will, but for now just read the entire threads :
Jesus Unicorn

And then read the follow-up, Neptune.

I basically offer a unique perspective into the occult topics in order to help others understand what it's really about.
It's not perfect but it does strive to give insights and should make reading something like Crowley a lot easier to grasp in the bigger picture.

Starts out a little rocky but develops and gets more streamlined as it progresses.
Anyhow, seems easier to just link all that and let you read it at your own pace rather than just spam in your thread here. Since you honestly seem to wonder about all of these things I feel obligated to offer you what I have currently available.

Hopefully it aids in some way or another.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 03:00 AM
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cartenz
Crowley: The worst thing to happen to esoteric studies since Christianity.

2nd.


Hahaha...my sentiments exactly...what do they say? There's a sucker born every minute...

Å99



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by TheJourney
 


I thought A. Crowley was the devil incarnate or so he proclaimed. Whether or not you believe in this sort of thing, I thought he killed many young people through sacrifice. Why would anyone want to be indulging in his perverse affairs? A very sick and evil man.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 03:39 AM
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pandersway
reply to post by TheJourney
 


I thought A. Crowley was the devil incarnate or so he proclaimed. Whether or not you believe in this sort of thing, I thought he killed many young people through sacrifice. Why would anyone want to be indulging in his perverse affairs? A very sick and evil man.


...just left of, Son of Sam, who claimed satan was telling him to kill people through the mind of an Alsatian dog...disturbed individuals all say the same things...some of them are priviledged enough to not be incarcerated in mental institutions (for one reason or another)...for Crowley, it was wealth...strong christian background was his indoctrination into devillry...the man was a showman, with a penchant for drug addled writing - a second rate showman with second rate writing...

Å99



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 03:51 AM
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pandersway
reply to post by TheJourney
 


I thought A. Crowley was the devil incarnate or so he proclaimed. Whether or not you believe in this sort of thing, I thought he killed many young people through sacrifice. Why would anyone want to be indulging in his perverse affairs? A very sick and evil man.


I am pretty convinced after extensive research many of those claims are mostly bogus.

It's like selling a product, you dress it up in the right packaging, make sure the right people find it while the rest use it as an example to avoid.

I am convinced this is a ruse to reinforce the false religious paradigms pervasive today, and through trickery, to keep the truth hidden in plain sight and ridiculed or scorned.

You want to know why Crowley was called "Evil"?
Because he wrote all these books and straight gave us deep occult info on a platter for free.
It's not perfect nothing ever is, but it sure is better than half of the stuff written on the topic these days.

Consider the possibility that it's an elaborate fraud that intended to have this specific outcome.
Consider the Irony of Christians scorning Crowley as evil, when their own book proclaims only God judges?



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 05:28 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


I have been recently reading Crowley, Fortune and several others and started also on the Tree of Life. Because my pet esoteric interest has been astrology for some time the Tree was not so far removed from my way of thinking that I have been persisting.

My problem is that although I can put at least some of the astrology I have learned to use with reading Crowley I am not that enthusiastic about the Hebrew side of the Tree, simply because having researched the bible I know where Genesis was cherry picked from and the alterations to the original myths used by the Hebrew Priests. In fairness though Hebrew was used simply because of persecution from the Catholic church which was hell-bent on getting rid of all competition. But it was compromised by the Hebrews due to Jesus being a Jew and most importantly, priests could read Latin and Greek but not Hebrew and did not consider its information a threat so this hidden 'knowledge' has survived by being written in Hebrew by the serious occultists, alchemists etc to hide their beliefs from the Church.

I have the 777 and several other Crowley books as well as Fortune's and Gareth Knight, Regardie Disraeli etc which I am slo0wly and leisurely chewing my way through. In fairness this knowledge was seriously sought after from the mid 1800's till the 1940's with Hitler, Theosophists and especially Spiritualism being in vogue. Today its ridiculed yet one hears the odd whisper of Satanism and the elite having an interest in Satanic worship etc - which, if he rules the world would account for their interest if they feel they have benefitted by gaining power from this workship. Also it is much whispered in astrological circles that the royals thoroughly follow astrology etc so I keep an open mind today about who worships and uses what.

I do believe there is something hidden today, which lies within the realms of Morphic Resonance, the world quantum science in many of its forms is slowly revealing and a lost knowledge that perhaps some have managed to carry forward per generation.

Regarding Crowley and others though, they took years to assimilate and create their interpretations of things like the Tree of Life so it appears that one, in anticipation of an end enlightenment, has to go quietly and slowly along the road of discovery and what is at the end of it, - if I ever get there I will let you know (this doesn't mean I won't decide later on to leave it as something that is out of its time.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 05:41 AM
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reply to post by Shiloh7
 


The secret is that everyone is a "Satanist" despite their refusal to admit to it.
Actions and custom prove this, and in the future historians will talk about us in these terms most likely as we do about those in the past.

People worship a statue and tell you "They aren't worshiping the statue, but instead the concept it represents", well that is how people have always done it, surprise surprise.

All Idols or "Gods" are just masks of the great 'Shape-Shifter' aka the Universe and it's Natural Law.

People say the greatest lie is that Satan convinced people he doesn't exist.
Well that's not true, most people totally believe in him even the skeptics slip up in dire moments.

So actually "God" tricked everyone into believing in "Satan". That's more like an accurate appraisal.
That's why I keep saying SATAN = SATIN , because it is literally connected in many ways.

Forgive the tendency to describe these concepts in personified manners, but it does help to explain the overall ideas a lot better I have found.

Why do they keep persisting the myth of this "Great Devil"?
War is Deception, War is about Control.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 05:48 AM
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reply to post by TheJourney
 


Value of Crowley?

. . . pondering . . .

. . . pondering . . .

. . . pondering some more . . .

I suppose he could have some value . . .

in demonstrating

WHAT values

NOT to have.

WHAT DEEDS

NOT to do.

He has to be one of the most despicable excuses for human garbage ever to breathe air and take up space.

So there must be some value in his horrifically bad example.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 07:34 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


I miserably accept your Satan analagy for human nature. However, says he walking backwards, I do (bows head and speaks softly believe in human decency and how we help each other when in need).

Saturn / Satan are as yhou say always linked together from the astrological view comes the belief that the planet Saturn is a malaefic. He is the teacher who punishes and holds you till you have learned your lessons, he's also the furthest planet the ancients could see and very bright. His press is bad, the oppressive one and a link to Satan was assured. When one looks at Job, God is chatting to Satan not as an enemey but as a tempter and in a way teacher. He clearly was not at war with Satan so perhaps we can assume that Satan and Yahweh were two of the Elohim in the garden etc.

I often wonder if Crowley and comrades were not right about the the fallen ones when they believed that we steadily come into matter, which is a 'fall' from the spirit-life into the material world. I know often people think its the other way round. I douibt we will ever know whilst sitting down with Satan here.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 10:58 AM
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All of this talk of how 'evil' Aleister Crowley was, and all the awful things he did, I guess should have been expected based on what I've seen members post about him before, but is BS nonetheless. He's one, among others, who gets complete nonsense spread about him so people won't listen to what he has to say. If anything, this adds legitimacy to the idea that he probably has something worthwhile to say.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 08:30 PM
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reply to post by TheJourney
 


Well then if that's your stand, elaborate! What DID Crowley have to say that was so esoteric it had to be covered up with lies about his actions. There is certainly a great deal of evidence that he was a wicked individual.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 09:33 PM
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reply to post by TheJourney
 


Ahhhhhhhhh . . . I see . . .

the old . . .

6 igloos times 12 chickens times 666 aardvarks times 999 lbs of slug snot

divided by 33 lizard livers times 66 cacti spines

equals brilliance, erudition, wisdom, knowledge . . . above everything and everyone else.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

No thanks.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 10:39 PM
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reply to post by TheJourney
 


If you wish to understand the Tradition (Kabbalah), please avoid Crowley, it will do you no help. Start with Gershom Scholem to get an academic understanding of the subject.

en.wikipedia.org...

My question is tho: Why do you wish to learn the tradition? Is it part of your cultural heritage or are you just interested?.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 10:45 PM
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BO XIAN
reply to post by TheJourney
 


Value of Crowley?

. . . pondering . . .

. . . pondering . . .

. . . pondering some more . . .

I suppose he could have some value . . .

in demonstrating

WHAT values

NOT to have.

WHAT DEEDS

NOT to do.

He has to be one of the most despicable excuses for human garbage ever to breathe air and take up space.

So there must be some value in his horrifically bad example.



The value I see in Crowley is not esoteric but practical. Diary of a Drug Fiend has some interesting practical advice for anyone wishing to become a full-time junky.

Everything else: Greater Key, Lesser Key, Necro... et al. all BS designed to further obscure an already hidden path.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 10:56 PM
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cartenz
My question is tho: Why do you wish to learn the tradition? Is it part of your cultural heritage or are you just interested?.


Well, I suppose 2 separate interests intersect here. My interest in Crowley is separate from my interest in Kabbalah, it just so happened that Crowley spoke of Kaballah a lot. I suppose my interest in Crowley originally stems from my interest in Timothy Leary, who i believe is a genius far ahead of his times. He spoke of Crowley often, in praise, even saying he felt he continued Crowley's work. Thus I felt obligated to learn Crowley.

My interest in Kabbalah I suppose stems, at least partially, from my former spiritual path. This was way different from where I have been for a while now. I nearly converted to orthodox Judaism. I took it extremely seriously, massive amounts of stuy, etc, as is required if one wants to convert orthodox. I was also very seriously considering movin to Israel if I did convert, as I felt you were supposed to if able.

So, such a major aspect of your life always stays with you. Now my philosophy is more eastern and esoteric, so interest in kaballah has grown. Interestingly, when I was into Judaism, I was into an extremely old-school version, and I felt the Kabbalah was probably a later addition, straying from the original path cuz of man's tendencies and desires for mysticism. Funny how different I thought then.



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to Shiloh7

You do realise the Tree of Life (and the Tree of K/G/E) are Hebrew concepts? The Catholics studied biblical Hebrew so they could further their own religion that they based on Hebrew scriptures. I suggest looking into the Spanish Inquisition and "early" Kabbalah--you will be suprised what the Church did/do know. We hae modern Talmudic scholars claiming the Talmud is the Tree of Life and the Tree of K/G/E, I dont agree; but the point I'm trying to make is that these are Hebrew concepts--Is Kabbalah a Hebrew concept tho?



posted on Oct, 14 2013 @ 11:44 PM
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reply to post by TheJourney
 


I'm in two minds on whether Kabbalah is a 12/13th Century Spanish thing, originating from an oriental tradition bought to Spain by Islamic sources, or if it is actually a genuine Jewish concept that existed in oral tradition only. Having worked on an academic paper on the subject, and not being able to trace any physical evidence to an earlier origin of Kabbalah, its really only faith that maintains this split.

I asked about your background because there is Christian Cabala that is a lot easier for someone to get into without having to learn Hebrew, its conceptually similar and fits into a Christian paradigm easier.

I might be looking at the Crowley/Tim Leary connection too superficially--The whole chemical experimentation thing; But I never read Leary, I just know of him. As you can tell I don't take Crowley as a master of the occult, his understandings of Kabbalah IMHO are distorted by his ego and drug-fuelled psychosis, something that could be also said about Leary in relation to levitating the pentagon.

You mention the Tree of Life in the OP--emphasised early on in my studies of Kabbalah was the other tree. Knowledge is neutral, how it is applied is good/evil; I feel Crowley ignores/misinterprets this... I'm trying to remember if its in the Talmud or Genesis where God says about Adam and Eve "well at least they didnt eat from the other Tree" (referring to the Tree of Life).
edit on 14-10-2013 by cartenz because: spelling





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