What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by FlyersFan


This is what you quoted regarding beating women

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."

now let me show you the level to which the sites you visit sink in their zeal to malign Islam.
Here are a few verses before this verse

41. Commemorate Our Servant Job. Behold he cried to his Lord: "The Evil
One has afflicted me with distress and
suffering!"
42. (The command was given

"Strike with thy foot: here is (water) where in
to wash, cool and refreshing, and
(water) to drink."
43. And We gave him (back) his people, and doubled their number,- as
a Grace from Ourselves, and a thing for
commemoration, for all who have
Understanding.
44. "And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not
(thy oath)." Truly We found him full of
patience and constancy. How
excellent in Our service! ever did he
turn (to Us)!

so you can see why i do not take these things you post as anything but hate propoganda, maybe you don't do it for this reason, maybe you really believe that Islam is evil. You are free to believe but i hope you see why i do not lap up the propaganda like you and you end up thinking that i am indoctrinated.

If i would have not found satisfactory answers in Islam, i would have walked away. If i was not a muslim then i would be an atheist or maybe a free floating spiritualist. I stay because i get answers. If answers stop.. I leave..

So, no i didnt lie about the good teachings in Qur'an but you are so biased towards it that you can't admit even when i show it to you.
You could have at least said, "those good teachings are copied from Bible!!"

i hope you see that there's only one way to interact with me and it requires genuine discussions and not gorrilla raid like posts and run and no intellectual interactions.

reply to post by logical7


I don't see what your point is. What's the connection between that verse and your conviction that he's wrong?

reply to post by wildtimes

And if they're BOTH wrong and false? Then what? You'd have to give up your precious "hell" - on which you depend so very much for 'revenge' - SO? THEN WHAT?

I don't want revenge. I tried to tell you that i had talked about it when i was thinking in terms of pure justice.
I would be very happy if hell was empty.

There is actually a glitch if hell is absent. You fill it with the idea of karma and multiple lives.
But if there is just one life then how do you dispense karma in afterlife?
You think hell is cruel but you are fine with a soul suffering karma in next life, so if god was loving why remember and punish by karma? Why not a karmaless fresh start again and again?

Maybe due to its learning benefit i guess.
But then what if the person already knew what he is about to do is wrong yet did it, then the karma would be a punishment and there's no guarantee that he would learn anything.. If an individual is stubborn and rebellious then karma would be perpetual without improvement of soul and that i think is same as eternal hell.
I am not a fan of hell or want it, i am just a curious thinker who loves thinking in "what ifs.." and see how long the idea stands logically.

reply to post by logical7

If i was not a muslim then i would be an atheist or maybe a free floating spiritualist.

Now now, there's no need to go "atheist."

But the "free floating spiritualist" is a MUCH better choice than the one you've adopted. You ought to try it!! THEN we could have truly intellectual discussions, rather than apologetic snarkiness in a thread about the 'power' of religion over people's emotions and curiosity. ALL OF US could.

OH! Like THIS ONE!!

What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your religion is false?
You have said you'd 'walk away' - but there is CLEARLY something you are afraid of.

What is it? What scares you? How you'd respond to that 'revelation'? That you'd be out of control, having no longer any reason to be 'nice'?

Or is it scary that perpetrators get no 'punishment', but eventually reach paradise with everyone else, after however many lifetimes of learning it takes?

Is it that you think you've broken some rule (a dumb, impossible one, like: don't lust after women, for example) and are now trapped into 'obedience' in order to make up for it, or else you'll burn in hell?

AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

I don't see what your point is. What's the connection between that verse and your conviction that he's wrong?

could you explain about what are you talking exactly?

reply to post by logical7

44. "And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not
(thy oath)." Truly We found him full of
patience and constancy. How
excellent in Our service! ever did he
turn (to Us)!

so you can see why i do not take these things you post as anything but hate propoganda, maybe you don't do it for this reason, maybe you really believe that Islam is evil. You are free to believe but i hope you see why i do not lap up the propaganda like you and you end up thinking that i am indoctrinated.

I don't understand what your point here is. What does the verse have to do with your explanation?

In reply to the OP: I changed from Christian to Mormon, then back to Christian over a period of 50 years. Took me 10 years to begin to leave Mormonism. Just turned out to be untrue doctrine.

The point is: keep looking for the truth, even when you are sure you have found it. That way you can keep an open mind, which is sadly lacking in most people steeped in their faith. Without an open mind, I would still be a Mormon.

reply to post by Jim Scott


I'm surprised you're still religious at all, given that kind of history. Looking at a turd from the left instead of the right still makes it a turd. And it still smells.

reply to post by logical7

You think hell is cruel but you are fine with a soul suffering karma in next life, so if god was loving why remember and punish by karma? Why not a karmaless fresh start again and again?

Maybe due to its learning benefit i guess.
But then what if the person already knew what he is about to do is wrong yet did it, then the karma would be a punishment and there's no guarantee that he would learn anything.. If an individual is stubborn and rebellious then karma would be perpetual without improvement of soul and that i think is same as eternal hell.

Okay. Now we're getting somewhere.... *rubs hands together to warm up fingers*

Yes, I am FINE with a soul suffering karma in next life, or the one after that, or the one previous....YES, THE LEARNING BENEFIT. Exactly.

..."why remember?" Because a loving parent (God) does not erase the child's memory and then punish them for making the same mistake without having had the opportunity and LESSON of having done it.

You don't seem to understand that the cycle ENDS eventually. After enough lifetimes of spiritual practice and seeking, of sorting and filtering input, the soul finally GRADUATES, and is then REUNITED WITH the Divine and not "sent back"; that soul no longer HAS TO RETURN HERE AGAIN. They can "choose to" in order to help or assist in teaching someone else a lesson, or they can move on to whatever.....

If the person did what he ALREADY KNEW WAS WRONG, then the lesson hasn't been adequately taught. Like failing a class or test, and having to RETAKE IT.

ALL youths are rebellious. Like it or not, that is part and parcel and INEXTRICABLE from being human. If you have never been "rebellious", you have not yet made it to the next step.

You're not alone in this, there are lots of adults who repressed their rebelliousness.

Psychology and brain-development science have established (decades ago) that there are MILESTONES that must be crossed even after one is 'fully physicall grown'. Those are EMOTIONAL and COGNITIVE milestones; and to gain them, a healthy adolescent WILL (indeed, MUST) rebel against the status quo, in the quest to 'identify himself to himself' (self-identify) and "differentiate" himself from his circle. That is how adult personalities and honest identities are made.

Some youths DO repress this natural stage (out of fear or being too controlled by others). IT MUST HAPPEN for the SOUL TO GROW, so if a person resists it all his/her life, and goes to their grave without having done it...they'll be back...because it is REQUIRED. Eventually, though, through various chances, situations, circumstances, genders, social role, etc.....THEY GET IT....and then they get the diploma!!



Dude. Really. It's "school". It's the "school" of the Divine. Takes longer than 48 months.

reply to post by wildtimes

OH! Like THIS ONE!!
What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your religion is false?
You have said you'd 'walk away' - but there is CLEARLY something you are afraid of.
What is it? What scares you? How you'd respond? That perpetrators get no 'punishment'? That you think you've broken some rule and are now trapped into 'obedience'?

i didnt get the last part, "broken rule and are trapped into obedience"??

I am not afraid of walking away, walking away is just the wrong thing to do after i know what i know.

My observation is that its really true what they say "ignorance is bliss"
in other words, degree of freedom is inversely proportional to knowledge if you want to do the right things.

The moment i know that i have a Creator, my absolute independence ceases.
The moment i know that there is an afterlife, my complete freedom of action ceases.

You are at this level now,
The moment i realise the devastating effects of interest based and fractional banking. I now have a responsibility to not be a part of it in any way.
And this just keeps going on, so even if you act on the basis of all the knowledge you have, your choices keep getting limited..

reply to post by Jim Scott

The point is: keep looking for the truth, even when you are sure you have found it. That way you can keep an open mind, which is sadly lacking in most people steeped in their faith.

Mucho agreed.

Hey, thank you for chiming in....but....I just have to say, your avatar makes me VERY SAD. Every time I see it I frown and my heart aches.

But yes, AN OPEN MIND is the key!!
Fear clouds one's open-mindedness. A common human condition.

reply to post by logical7

degree of freedom is inversely proportional to knowledge if you want to do the right things.

THAT IS CRAP. Wow, you haven't the slightest idea how chained you are, do you? You don't.

FREEDOM to make mistakes and learn from them is KNOWLEDGE BEING BORN.

You've got it backwards.

Are you going to answer the questions?

AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

44. "And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not
(thy oath)." Truly We found him full of
patience and constancy. How
excellent in Our service! ever did he
turn (to Us)!

so you can see why i do not take these things you post as anything but hate propoganda, maybe you don't do it for this reason, maybe you really believe that Islam is evil. You are free to believe but i hope you see why i do not lap up the propaganda like you and you end up thinking that i am indoctrinated.

I don't understand what your point here is. What does the verse have to do with your explanation?

edit on 6-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

the verse was quoted as a verse dictating beating of women when the verse is about God telling Job pbuh how to clean his wounds.
I hope this would clear it.

reply to post by logical7

i didnt get the last part, "broken rule and are trapped into obedience"??

I edited the post to make it more clear.....I'll try again here:

"What scares you?

Is it about how you would respond to that 'revelation'? Afraid that you'd be out of control, having no longer any reason to be 'nice'?

Or is it scary that perpetrators get no 'punishment', but eventually reach paradise with everyone else, after however many lifetimes of learning it takes?

Is it that you think you've broken some rule (a dumb, impossible one, like: don't lust after women, for example) and are now trapped into 'obedience' in order to make up for it, or else you'll burn in hell?"

There ya go.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

degree of freedom is inversely proportional to knowledge if you want to do the right things.

THAT IS CRAP. Wow, you haven't the slightest idea how chained you are, do you? You don't.

FREEDOM to make mistakes and learn from them is KNOWLEDGE BEING BORN.

You've got it backwards.

Are you going to answer the questions?

what questions? I thought i did.

Are you telling me that after knowing that fastfood is unhealthy, you still have the freedom to eat it. Yes you do but not if you want to do the right thing.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

i didnt get the last part, "broken rule and are trapped into obedience"??

I edited the post to make it more clear.....I'll try again here:

"What scares you?

Is it about how you would respond to that 'revelation'? Afraid that you'd be out of control, having no longer any reason to be 'nice'?

Or is it scary that perpetrators get no 'punishment', but eventually reach paradise with everyone else, after however many lifetimes of learning it takes?

Is it that you think you've broken some rule (a dumb, impossible one, like: don't lust after women, for example) and are now trapped into 'obedience' in order to make up for it, or else you'll burn in hell?"

There ya go.

aha, LOL well nothing like that. No options of the above is fitting.

I said that i am NOT afraid to walk away. But why should i when i get the answers?

Your idea of multiple chances and everyone getting there is interesting to discuss but that does not mean i'l buy it. Especially when you admit that you dont know if its true.
It does raise a lot of questions which you answer with more speculations. So i am all for discussing it but it would be foolish to believe it knowing that its just assumptions and then base my actions and life on it.

reply to post by logical7

knowing that fastfood is unhealthy, you still have the freedom to eat it. Yes you do but not if you want to do the right thing.

"the right thing?" Are you suggesting that having an occasional fastfood burger is going to 'end my life and send me to burn in hell'???

That's QUITE a stretch, dude. From fastfood being less than nutritious to saying freedom corrupts is a LONG stretch. I just had a check-up and blood tests. My blood and hormone levels/chemical balance is PERFECTLY FINE. So is my blood pressure, my weight, etc. How many "fast food meals" have I eaten in my life?

A rough guess: 150 times? And, I'M NOT FAT, or SICK, or DEAD. I smoke and drink beer, too...and guess what? I'm NOT fat, or sick, or dead.

My mind and body and spirit are balanced. I'm doing fine. You, however, are stretched as taut as a fully extended rubber band. If you never let go of the rubber band and let it slap your wrist, you don't learn that rubber bands snapped on your wrist HURT!

reply to post by logical7

Your idea of multiple chances and everyone getting there is interesting to discuss but that does not mean i'l buy it.

Whether you 'buy it' or not has nothing to do with what the 'truth is.

Especially when you admit that you dont know if its true.

Right! Because that's what true 'students' of life do - we come up with theories and ideas, but we DON'T KNOW IF IT'S TRUE.

It does raise a lot of questions which you answer with more speculations. So i am all for discussing it

Cool

but it would be foolish to believe it knowing that its just assumptions and then base my actions and life on it.

Do I really have to point out that the above description of foolishness is EXACTLY what you are doing?

You are ASSUMING that Koran and Islam are 'true', you don't KNOW they are true. Yet you base your actions and life on it. .... Just in case. Or because they resonate with YOUR worldview. And that's fine.
That's what you're supposed to do - find what resonates with you - even if it's in SEVERAL DIFFERENT TRADITIONS. But you have 'bought Islam' and have done so with nothing but 'assumptions' that what you've been TOLD or READ is 'true.'

reply to post by logical7

But why should i when i get the answers?

LOL!!!!

How do you KNOW the 'answers' you get are CORRECT AND TRUE? Answer: YOU DON'T.

reply to post by wildtimes


ah!!
You took the example too literally.
Freedom corrupts? Thats interesting but i never said it.
I said freedom diminishes as knowledge increases along with responsibility to act on it.
Maybe our interpretation of the word "freedom" are different.