The Narcissistic Veterans and Their Illogical Logic

Klassified
Those soldiers who are guilty should be held accountable for their crimes. But to blanket all of our soldiers as war criminals for the acts of a few? I don't think so.

Before one shot was ever fired on foreign soil, Americans could have stopped it, and didn't. That makes you and I guilty, not our soldiers. If we, as Americans had the solidarity, and the guts, our soldiers have, there wouldn't be a war going on in the middle east right now.

It is we, the American people, who are responsible for the acts of our government. Our soldiers serve the American people. Since we are complicit in our governments actions overseas, it would hardly be proper for our soldiers to attack our government.

Our soldiers have done what was asked of them by the American public, through its representatives. Until we have enough solidarity, and intestinal fortitude, as a people to demand these wars and actions come to a complete stop. Then our lack of action is the same as permission.

Sorry, but I don't buy that "We the americans are responsible for our government" argument anymore than I buy the OP's "All military personnel are war criminals" argument. Both arguments are sensational, and overboard.

I hear BOTH argument ALL the time....and I understand where they both come from...but they are both so far from reality it would be hysterical if it wasn't so sad.


Americans responsible for our government? Give me a BREAK please. America, being more of a corporate entity then a "nation", is run with MONEY. The more money you have, the more you are WORTH, the more of a VOICE you have in this country. The VAST majority of Americans are living borderline in poverty, paycheck to paycheck, or with VERY, VERY little financial cushion. We are taught that as Americans we vote with the ballot, but as you grow older in life, you learn that you vote with your WALLET, nothing more, nothing less.

So no, don't blame all of America for the choices of a few. No one I know is responsible for what this Country was, Is, or will become. We do our VERY best, as Americans. We raise our children, pay our tax, work 40-60 hours a week, and OCCASIONALY we have time maybe once a week or so to spend a few hours with a buddy or something. We can't change the system anymore than someone living in mexico or spain or nigeria can change the american government.

I hear that argument ALL THE TIME. It isn't the govrnments fault, it isnt the corporations, it is the PEOPLES fault. The govrnments and corporations are just creations of the people, blah blah blah. That is all nonsense. The vast, vast, vast majority of people have NO controlling interest in anything the major corporations or our government does. It is a FEW wealthy elite families at the top who own ALL of the controlling interests in EVERYTHING that happens in this country.

That is why free market capitalism DOESNT work. Because overtime, power and wealth consolidates, and you become the VERY THING that a true democracy and free market system is supposed to prevent. You have a few wealthy KINGS who enslaven the population (peasants).

reply to post by imasheep

The incidents you mentioned are in fact true, you can find them on most any liberal talking points filled with hate,do I agree with what happens sometimes in war, no as I'm sure most who are in our military don't either.

I am having a hard time figuring out why anyone would post something so hate filled towards a specific group of people, I wonder do you feel so superior to anyone that may disagree with you that you just automatically bestow this kind of hatred on them, were you kicked out of the service or possibly turned down trying to join ?

Some of your points are valid but when you form them with such vitriol and hate for those that gave there lives and body parts for there country nothing you would say can be taken seriously.

You try and have a nice day.........or not.

reply to post by supermarket2012

I think we agree, a lot more than we disagree. I see all the things you're saying. However, I did not say the government, or the corporatocracy had no blame. At least, it was not my intent to imply such. I clearly stated our government is corrupt from the top to the bottom.

The only point we seem to disagree on, is you don't believe the people of this country have the responsibility of changing it. I very much believe they do, and can. I also believe it is the only way it will ever get changed. It is we the people who will have to put aside our differences, and let our voices be heard in harmony. As long as they are allowed to keep us divided, it will never happen.

The star is from me.

reply to post by imasheep


In an effort to not play nice..

First you are everything T and C violations prevent me from addressing you as..

It is individuals like yourself that are part of the worlds problems and not the solution



Now to the part you need to understand...

Pay close attention

You mentioned contracts...

Well by some small technicalities
The vets receiving treatment, Compensation, and Pensions come from those deals that were part of the contract..

A closer look is that most are payments for on the job injuries
Technically they seem to be treated as settlements

A pre set level for x damages that are common occurrences

Next consideration
Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard fall under a different set of damage rules
Laws of Admiralty-
heard by federal courts

The law is clear

So your pretty much, Well wrong

To sum up how your wrong

The money paid to vets is along the lines of a settlement the government reaches in each case


So What your saying is the government should be immune to all damages its employees receive while in the course of assigned duties..

reply to post by imasheep


Some good points, but mostly trash.
The OP slightly forgot that many, many of the old vets alive today are from the old days of the draft when you never had a reasonable choice to NOT go into the military. --You know, back in the "Greatest Generation?" You can't make all of the vets vermin. As we all do in holding a simple job whether it with a Ph.D. in hand or a shovel, we follow the orders of the boss. That is a simple fact of (social) life. These days, it is simply another job more or less, and they deserve every penny they get.

Frankly, I suspect that this thread was created solely to make trouble and nothing more.

The OP clearly has no idea how benefits work.

If a Veteran is getting benefits it is most likely because they have been injured in some way. Not all Veterans get the same benefits. If a Veteran finishes their term of enlistment they get a pat on the back and thats about it. If they Pay Into the GI Bill they could get that (I didn't use mine in 10 years so I lost my investment), or if their state has a program they could get that -but I think the OP means Federal Benefits. On the other hand if the Veteran is Injured think of it as Workman's Compensation, and thats exactly what it is Compensation, and thats the Federal benefit.

You break it you buy it, plain and simple.

This is exactly the reason I support Citizenship for Service... ie the OP would not be a citizen and therefore be unable to vote...

reply to post by supermarket2012


We found the Germans guilty for following orders that were inhumane and wrong, yet American soldiers in Iraq continued to occupy and bomb that country even after knowing the fact they had no involvement in 9/11, and no WMD's were found. I just hope our young men and women who are serving in the military have enough sense and moral conviction to know when their government is using them to enforce a secret agenda.

These conflicts we are currently involved in overseas, are not threatening the U.S. mainland or interests of the United States. That term "threatening U.S. interests" is used so often as to give a green light for any conflict the U.S. government wants to get involved in. The citizens of the U.S. and the military are both guilty in allowing our representatives to give the go ahead to become involved in these conflicts.

The public outrage by U.S. citizens that changed the decision to bomb Syria and avoid getting involved in that conflict, is the same outrage that should be done in any questionable foreign policy or military decision.

reply to post by watchitburn


What a smarmy reply sir. None if what you wrote has any basis in reality. First...I didn't hire you, you volunteered. Second, voting has zero to do with anything. We The People hired a President to look out for our best interests as a country. We The People cannot help that the last two Presidents have gone rogue and violated their oaths as well.

That is exactly why it is YOUR duty to remove rogues...or your commander as it were.

You don't get the luxury of picking and choosing which parts of your contract or oath you will follow. Either be a MAN and follow all the requirements, or follow none. We don't feel sorry for you when you have become part of the problem when we "hired" you to be a part of the solution. You dont somehow get a pass because "war is a bad thing" and you decide to violate basic human principals by killing innocent people using irradiated weapons which kill indiscriminately.

What a joke your whole reply was. You pass the buck and blame the People instead of yourself...much like the rogue in chief does. It looks like they brainwashed you well.

reply to post by seabag




Stop deflecting from the POINT of this thread. This has nothing to do with propoganda you fool. It is a FACT that all light arm rounds were indeed Depleted Uranium Rounds, not propoganda.
Furthermore, stop the nonsense that "you wanted it and so did everyone else". This thread isn't about whether WE wanted it or not. The thread is about how all of YOU have violated your OATH to US. You can't possibly deny that you have.
Far worse than the unmitigated killing by fallout is the veterans ability to place the blame on We The People for what YOU did or didn't do.

YOU took an oath to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. So why, once you come home, do you conveniently forget that oath and then expect We The People to follow through on ours?

To take it a step further, you violate the exact Constitution you swore to defend by doing nothing about the corrupt government that "forced" your hand overseas. It is YOUR duty to remove the corrupt government. Yes, I concede it is ours as well, but seeing as you guys are the badasses with the will and the means, We The People need YOU to start before you can blame Us for not joining...it is your duty and you are the ones who took the oath...not US.

That is the argument against why veterans should get nothing until they fulfill their obligations to US.

reply to post by seeker1963



God, do all of you veterans have some form letter reply or something!? You all regurgitate the same bullcrap. "Don't blame us, blame our superiors."

That isn't an excuse pal, its a cop out and passing the blame. Just following orders doesn't mean you aren't as guilty as the corrupt leaders who put you there.

If my boss tells me to lock and load my M-14 with irradiated rounds, Id tell him to go pound salt. Christ, you fight under the Constitution, not superiors! You violate the Constitution itself by following UNJUST orders. Have any of you vets even read the document?? Obviously NOT, or you would understand that you cannot take an oath to defend it by violating it at every turn. That is YOUR fault, NOT OURS.

You all seem to parrot the same nonsense and put yourselves away from any blame. How nice for you! The FACT remains:

You all took an oath. None of you follow that oath once you return from battle. You seem to think that your oath just matters when you're over seas. You come home, get your tax free goods, free college, low interest loans, free healthcare and conveniently forget that once home, your JOB is far from over.
Many of you claim to hate the corrupt governmeng as much as we do, but turn a blind eye to the FACT that you are the ones who are supposed to be removing said corrupt government. By doing nothing and accepting those freebies, you basically show US that your word is garbage and it validates the exact corrupt government you all claim to dislike.

Wish the real world worked that way, but We The People don't get the luxury of violating contracts and passing the blame....We The People get consequences for that...not freebies.

How nice to be able to pick and choose which parts of your contract you'll follow! Must make you all sleep a bit better at night knowing most people are too ignorant to call you out on your ability to tut your back on the very people who provided you with your living! Way to beat the man!

Know what's even sadder? The fact that those 90 year old WW2 vets with there wheel chairs and rascals are the ONLY vets who are currently taking a stand by forcing their way into closed monuments.
Those are the true patriots who obviously took their oath serious and are doing what they can. Where is all your comraderie? Why do you able bodies badasses let them do all of this alone!?

What a joke! The WW2 vets are showing you exactly how TRUE veterans are supposed to act. I wonder how it feels to sit there watching those old people do exactly what YOU are supposed to be. You should ALL be ashamed, but you're not, which is a disgrace to the uniform and the country as a whole.

Now try to retort any of that.

reply to post by imasheep


I want YOU TO PROVE All small arms ammo used were DU rounds ! Because you're either misinformed or out and out LYING, and I personally feel it's the latter choice.
DU rounds are used in tank rounds, not small arms

Eta: if I was an aide or an escort on one of those honor flights to the WWII memorial you can bet your ASS I would have moved the barricades aside to let my older brothers into their memorial

reading the three pages here has been embarrassing as a a.t.s member no matter what the op thinks i does not give some one the right to pick on his partner way to go guys .

the ones you should go for are the ones that ordered the d.u shells the same shells that will leave the area spoiled for thousands of years .

the guys that used flame throwers on women/children shot dogs for target practise raped women children etc etc
karma will deal with them in its own way .

we are all worth $ from the neck down it is what is obove the neck that defines us as men ?

Noting how you skipped out on the original thread here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

imasheep
reply to post by seeker1963

 

God, do all of you veterans have some form letter reply or something!? You all regurgitate the same bullcrap. "Don't blame us, blame our superiors."

That isn't an excuse pal, its a cop out and passing the blame. Just following orders doesn't mean you aren't as guilty as the corrupt leaders who put you there.

If my boss tells me to lock and load my M-14 with irradiated rounds, Id tell him to go pound salt. Christ, you fight under the Constitution, not superiors! You violate the Constitution itself by following UNJUST orders. Have any of you vets even read the document?? Obviously NOT, or you would understand that you cannot take an oath to defend it by violating it at every turn. That is YOUR fault, NOT OURS.

Here is the ammunition being used in 'light weapons'
en.wikipedia.org...

No 'irradiated rounds' there bub....

You all seem to parrot the same nonsense and put yourselves away from any blame. How nice for you! The FACT remains:

You all took an oath. None of you follow that oath once you return from battle. You seem to think that your oath just matters when you're over seas. You come home, get your tax free goods, free college, low interest loans, free healthcare and conveniently forget that once home, your JOB is far from over.
Many of you claim to hate the corrupt governmeng as much as we do, but turn a blind eye to the FACT that you are the ones who are supposed to be removing said corrupt government. By doing nothing and accepting those freebies, you basically show US that your word is garbage and it validates the exact corrupt government you all claim to dislike.

I must have been getting my free healthcare at the TMC the day they passed out the maps to all of the free stuff. I pay for college out of my own pocket, get low interest loans because I manage my money and credit like an adult, and pay ALOT for my healthcare and insurance.....

Wish the real world worked that way, but We The People don't get the luxury of violating contracts and passing the blame....We The People get consequences for that...not freebies.

How nice to be able to pick and choose which parts of your contract you'll follow! Must make you all sleep a bit better at night knowing most people are too ignorant to call you out on your ability to tut your back on the very people who provided you with your living! Way to beat the man!

Know what's even sadder? The fact that those 90 year old WW2 vets with there wheel chairs and rascals are the ONLY vets who are currently taking a stand by forcing their way into closed monuments.
Those are the true patriots who obviously took their oath serious and are doing what they can. Where is all your comraderie? Why do you able bodies badasses let them do all of this alone!?

What a joke! The WW2 vets are showing you exactly how TRUE veterans are supposed to act. I wonder how it feels to sit there watching those old people do exactly what YOU are supposed to be. You should ALL be ashamed, but you're not, which is a disgrace to the uniform and the country as a whole.

Now try to retort any of that.

You're still a jackass.....

reply to post by HomerinNC



"If I were an aide, Id go with the WW2 vets" Well damn son, you deserve a pat on the back for that statement! Why not go show your comradarie to those veterans without copping out that you "would" BUT...

We all know that everything that proceeds the word BUT is just bullcrap. Wow.

Onto my supposed lie:

Google is your friend sir. The UN admonished the use of "depleted uranium 5.56 rounds which were used in Iraq" numerous times from 2003-2005....just type it into your browser sir. Also look up thr FACT that in 2001, the US decided to use Uranium in small arms because," Uranium is twice as dense and we (the US), will use Tungsten and Uranium in ALL armor piercing rounds." It is YOU who is misinformed.

According to mil.gov, the following ordinance used in the Iraq war contained depleted Uranium:

All 30mm rounds used in the A-10 Thunderbolt.
All 25mm rounds used in the M1A1 Abrams and Bradley.
All 20mm rounds used by Cobra Gunships.
Used in ALL hand grenades.
Used in ALL landmines.
Used in ALL Cluster Bombs.
Used in ALL 5.56 small arms rounds which were armor piercing.

That ordinance, just in 2003 amounted to 1000 TONS of depleted Uranium powder being dispersed into the air.

Mayy I remind you that over 300,000 of your COMRADES suffered from Gulf War Syndrome...or radiation poisoning? Where is YOUR outrage??

Lemme school you on just ONE atrocity you vets perpetuated in the name of We The People....FALLUJAH.

HERE ARE THE FACTS SIR:

April 28, 2003

US soldiers fire INDISCRIMINATELY into a crowd of 200 protesters who were protesting the US converting a SCHOOL into a military base. They killed over HALF of them...ALL CIVILIANS.

Those people retaliated by kidnapping some Blackwater guys and killing them. How did the US Soldier respond? By executing....ON TAPE (ABC News) WOMEN! When charged with murder, their superiors claimed it was self defense and the perpetrators were free.

THEN, to add insuly to injury, we have Operation Vigilant Resolve!!

Thousands of Marines were brought in to surround the city so noone could escape what happened next.

The Marines started to bombard the city with White Phosphorus!! A CHEMICAL WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

The Marines fired round after round into the city, killing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS. What does White Phosphorus do? Glad you asked! It melts through roofs and walls! If you're lucky, it will get on you and melt you...a quick death! If you survive, you'll be treated to all oxygen being sucked out of the area and you can suffocate to death instead!! And that was just the beginning!

The onslaught continued using a manner of Depleted Uranium rounds! When a 30mm Uranium round explodes, it emits radio active dust, which covers everything and once its on you, you die a slow painful death.

To date, cases of Leukemia are 10,000 times normal in Fallujah! How great for the current residents huh?

Listen, you can try to deflect by claiming I'm lying, but my facts are indisputable if one just uses their browser. Please...direct me to ANY site that can dispute anything I have written! Don't just word vomit rhetoric and claim I'm lying.

I'll end this post by giving a quote from the General in Charge of the Fallujah massacre:

General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, in an interview done by an AP reporter stated the following on how he felt about the assault on Fallujah," Its fun to shoot people...its a helluva hoot!"

To think that We The People hired you to use chemical warfare against civilians protesting the taking of a school is just ludicrous...but hey, you seem to be fine with it, so kudos for that.

reply to post by groundplant




Wait...you actually claim I'm wrong and use WIKI!!?? Lol, that's so idiotic I wong even respond to that point.

While YOU may not get benefits, I believe ALL current vets recieve tax free goods on ANY base. All vets get low interest loans through the government. ALL vets receive healthcare through the VA. ALL vets get the GI Bill which gives FREE COLLEGE. What are you even talking about there?

Id refer you to my reply posted just minutes ago for more proof of my point on Uranium rounds and the atrocitirs committed by VETS in the name of the US.

My point is that once ANY vet commits any atrocity in MY name, they violated their contract they signed. They should not receive any benefits due to THAT.

Its a point that can't be argued by anyone. NO point you could make, or lame excuse you come up with, can claim you are somehow justified in not following your end of the agreement. You violate your oath and contract, you should get nothing...period.

reply to post by imasheep


When are you going to arrest a vet then?

reply to post by imasheep


Oh, and could you include the word Hegemony in your answer ...

I've always liked the word hegemony.

imasheep
reply to post by groundplant

 

Wait...you actually claim I'm wrong and use WIKI!!?? Lol, that's so idiotic I wong even respond to that point.

While YOU may not get benefits, I believe ALL current vets recieve tax free goods on ANY base. All vets get low interest loans through the government. ALL vets receive healthcare through the VA. ALL vets get the GI Bill which gives FREE COLLEGE. What are you even talking about there?

Id refer you to my reply posted just minutes ago for more proof of my point on Uranium rounds and the atrocitirs committed by VETS in the name of the US.

My point is that once ANY vet commits any atrocity in MY name, they violated their contract they signed. They should not receive any benefits due to THAT.

Its a point that can't be argued by anyone. NO point you could make, or lame excuse you come up with, can claim you are somehow justified in not following your end of the agreement. You violate your oath and contract, you should get nothing...period.

Incorrect sir.
Once you leave the military, you turn in your military ID card. You need that to use the AAFES, commissary and other base privileges.
The only ones that get that ID card are retires, their dependants, and 100% disabled veterans

imasheep
reply to post by HomerinNC

 

"If I were an aide, Id go with the WW2 vets" Well damn son, you deserve a pat on the back for that statement! Why not go show your comradarie to those veterans without copping out that you "would" BUT...

We all know that everything that proceeds the word BUT is just bullcrap. Wow.

Onto my supposed lie:

Google is your friend sir. The UN admonished the use of "depleted uranium 5.56 rounds which were used in Iraq" numerous times from 2003-2005....just type it into your browser sir. Also look up thr FACT that in 2001, the US decided to use Uranium in small arms because," Uranium is twice as dense and we (the US), will use Tungsten and Uranium in ALL armor piercing rounds." It is YOU who is misinformed.

According to mil.gov, the following ordinance used in the Iraq war contained depleted Uranium:

All 30mm rounds used in the A-10 Thunderbolt.
All 25mm rounds used in the M1A1 Abrams and Bradley.
All 20mm rounds used by Cobra Gunships.
Used in ALL hand grenades.
Used in ALL landmines.
Used in ALL Cluster Bombs.
Used in ALL 5.56 small arms rounds which were armor piercing.

That ordinance, just in 2003 amounted to 1000 TONS of depleted Uranium powder being dispersed into the air.

Mayy I remind you that over 300,000 of your COMRADES suffered from Gulf War Syndrome...or radiation poisoning? Where is YOUR outrage??

Lemme school you on just ONE atrocity you vets perpetuated in the name of We The People....FALLUJAH.

HERE ARE THE FACTS SIR:

April 28, 2003

US soldiers fire INDISCRIMINATELY into a crowd of 200 protesters who were protesting the US converting a SCHOOL into a military base. They killed over HALF of them...ALL CIVILIANS.

Those people retaliated by kidnapping some Blackwater guys and killing them. How did the US Soldier respond? By executing....ON TAPE (ABC News) WOMEN! When charged with murder, their superiors claimed it was self defense and the perpetrators were free.

THEN, to add insuly to injury, we have Operation Vigilant Resolve!!

Thousands of Marines were brought in to surround the city so noone could escape what happened next.

The Marines started to bombard the city with White Phosphorus!! A CHEMICAL WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

The Marines fired round after round into the city, killing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS. What does White Phosphorus do? Glad you asked! It melts through roofs and walls! If you're lucky, it will get on you and melt you...a quick death! If you survive, you'll be treated to all oxygen being sucked out of the area and you can suffocate to death instead!! And that was just the beginning!

The onslaught continued using a manner of Depleted Uranium rounds! When a 30mm Uranium round explodes, it emits radio active dust, which covers everything and once its on you, you die a slow painful death.

To date, cases of Leukemia are 10,000 times normal in Fallujah! How great for the current residents huh?

Listen, you can try to deflect by claiming I'm lying, but my facts are indisputable if one just uses their browser. Please...direct me to ANY site that can dispute anything I have written! Don't just word vomit rhetoric and claim I'm lying.

I'll end this post by giving a quote from the General in Charge of the Fallujah massacre:

General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, in an interview done by an AP reporter stated the following on how he felt about the assault on Fallujah," Its fun to shoot people...its a helluva hoot!"

To think that We The People hired you to use chemical warfare against civilians protesting the taking of a school is just ludicrous...but hey, you seem to be fine with it, so kudos for that.

Source please that shows DU was used in 5.56 mm ammo, hand grenades, etc please

ETA: yes Google is my friend, but you made the statement as FACT, provide FACTS please

reply to post by HomerinNC


we all know he can't because DU is expensive and heavy. Not something you want when either buying or carrying millions of rounds of 5.56

But then again, how can you expect a tool like I # sheep to understand a simple concept like that?