The Narcissistic Veterans and Their Illogical Logic

page: 1
14
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join

posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 03:49 PM
link   
I realize I may be in the minority with my thoughts here, but someone has to call a spade a spade, and I have the guts to take the inevitable heat for this topic.

I want everyone to remember this famous quote before they type any word-vomit which doesn't further an adult discussion...."Those that cannot attack the thought, instead attack the thinker."

While I apologize I cannot post links or embed, you all have heard of the things I will bring up and they are facts which cannot be disputed.


There have been many threads posted regarding military vets as of late. Most recently, a thread appeared in the Rant section about a Veteran who's benefits have been cut due to the US Government shutdown. That post compelled me to make a thread about why we, the American People, don't owe any vets anything. In fact, I'd go as far as saying many vets should be brought up on TREASON charges.

This is my argument:

The main complaint I hear from veterans, mainly from the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan is they don't get the respect they deserve for their service which they claim "protects the freedoms of the US of A". More recently, I hear grumblings about benefits being cut to veterans and their families and how WE, the American subject, should honor our side of the contract that they signed. The veteran almost always closes their argument saying something to the effect of,"I signed an oath to protect America from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. WE deserve respect."

Here is why their complaining should fall on deaf ears:


They entered into a contract which includes upholding the Constitution of the United States, The Geneva Convention, and protecting the mainland from all enemies both foreign and domestic. They ALL have violated that agreement...hence, they should get NOTHING. Here are some examples of violations....egregious violations I might add.


2011: An Apache Helicopter is directed to a small town in Afghanistan. The Apache is ordered to fire on what is believed to be enemy insurgents. In fact, the "insurgents" are ALL media personel who are covering the war. The Apache fires on them, and kills them all, while the operators of said Apache proceed to laugh about it. This video is readily available for view on YT.



2012: A drone strike is authorized on what is claimed to be terrorists. These "terrorists" are later found to be American citizens...a father and his sixteen year old son. No warrant. No trial. Just an arbitrary death sentence...of a CHILD.


2003-2011: US forces in Iraq are using Depleted Uranium rounds. This is a direct violation of the Geneva Convention and HUMAN RIGHTS. These rounds now litter every city and town in Iraq causing radiation burns, deformed births, and even death of NON COMBATANTS and will continue to do so for decades.



There are hundreds more examples I could include of how our dear vets have violated not only the contract they signed, but violated humanity as a whole, but I digress.


By following the orders which facilitated the above examples, the veterans have made us, the American public, accessories to WAR CRIMES. Hence, they violated any contract that they signed.


To take this a step further, they have also violated their oath to defend the US against all enemies foreign and domestic both by following the orders to fire on American citizens, and by allowing the present corrupt government to continuously violate the exact Constitution they swore to uphold by not immediately marching to Washington to take this country back.


Knowing all this, we still have veterans complaining that their benefits are cut off or diminished. This is called paying lip service. On one hand, they claim WE THE PEOPLE have violated a contract and we should continue giving them full benefits, while not realizing it is THEM that have violated both the contract and their OATH to protect this country.


I, for one, don't like being an accessory to the murder of citizens without a trial. I don't like knowing I helped facilitate the murder of countless children in Iraq due to the bombardment of their country by radioactive rounds. The old,"I was just following orders" excuse is a cop out tantamount to Nazi Germany and the Nuremberg trials. It didn't work then, it doesn't work now.


I'm not saying that I despise veterans or anything. Hell, I don't have the testicular fortitude to do what they do. However, I hate the fact that they are forcing me to become a war criminal by proxy.


In closing, I don't feel that. veterans deserve any respect when its demanded, like it usually is. I don't feel the American public should continue to facilitate the notion that somehow our veterans deserve free medical care via VA Hospitals, death benefits, or free college.


If they want those things, they should keep their end of the ccontract and OATH, and Id have no problem giving them whatever they want. I know war is an ugly thing, but using that as an excuse to facilitate the actions of the exact corruptness they vowed to protect us from is a redundant argument.


I will await a valid argument to what I've posted. Calling me a shill or names in general isn't an argument...its a cop out for someone who doesn't have the cognitive ability to put forth a valid opinion.


Thanks for reading and I look forward to hearing from you ATS.




posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:09 PM
link   
I can understand where you are coming from. But, I think there are a few things you are neglecting that should be taken into consideration.

1. I have yet to observe a veteran "demanding" respect, whether online or in real life. If you could provide an example, it would be appreciated.

2. The vast majority of service members are very young, and have no idea what they are actually getting themselves into. They are mostly just trying to do what they believe is the right thing to do.

Case in point, it took me 7 years to realize what a joke our wars are.

3. Hundreds of examples of war crimes? Please provide at least 200 separate instances to substantiate your claims. Otherwise you are just sensationalizing in an attempt to enhance your point of view.

My opinion:
I do not need, ask for, or desire any one's respect or support for my service. I have been in for more than 12 years, I do it because it is what I do, it's what I know and I enjoy it.

Most service members only know what the TV tells them, so they believe they are actually fighting for something. Like freedom. And 99 times out of 100 they are going to make the right decision on the battlefield and do the right thing as best they can.

But, that is not what you hear about on the TV, you only hear about that one dumb-ass who did something stupid.

So just like any other demographic in the world, don't rush to generalize and judge everyone based on the actions of one or two out of a hundred.

Edit:

In regards to benefits,
They are written into the contract a service member signs upon joining. If that service member were to violate the terms of said contract, they can expect to feel the full weight of the United States Govt. come crashing down on them. So is it unreasonable to expect the other party to the contract to uphold their end?

That is the whole idea behind a contract is it not?
edit on 12-10-2013 by watchitburn because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-10-2013 by watchitburn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:12 PM
link   
Those soldiers who are guilty should be held accountable for their crimes. But to blanket all of our soldiers as war criminals for the acts of a few? I don't think so.

Before one shot was ever fired on foreign soil, Americans could have stopped it, and didn't. That makes you and I guilty, not our soldiers. If we, as Americans had the solidarity, and the guts, our soldiers have, there wouldn't be a war going on in the middle east right now.

It is we, the American people, who are responsible for the acts of our government. Our soldiers serve the American people. Since we are complicit in our governments actions overseas, it would hardly be proper for our soldiers to attack our government.

Our soldiers have done what was asked of them by the American public, through its representatives. Until we have enough solidarity, and intestinal fortitude, as a people to demand these wars and actions come to a complete stop. Then our lack of action is the same as permission.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:19 PM
link   
i also could give a crap about the vets from our current war(s) this decade.
i wasnt aware there was a draft (oh there wasnt). at least that would earn some respect, even if i disagree with the wars.


but imo, i KNOW my freedoms arent being threatened by our vague enemies we are currently fighting. and all the current accomplishments from these wars hasnt made me feel any safer yet. then why should i be patting these guys on the backs? im not the sucker that fought for nothing, to return to nothing. thats THEIR mistake.
edit on 12-10-2013 by Bisman because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-10-2013 by Bisman because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:27 PM
link   
reply to post by imasheep
 


I am a disabled Vet whose "benefits" are somewhat being effected right now, but to be honest, I never really expected them to be there for the long term anyway because of the nature of our economy and the irresponsibility of DC Bureaucrats. Having said that, I think you make the mistake of grouping the Vets and the Military Industrial Complex/System in together. When I joined the Navy in 1995 I joined because I had nothing better to do, and I wanted to get out of my small hometown. I would argue that this is the reason that the vast majority of service members sign up for. To think that an 18 year old kid fresh out of high school has an understanding of the global political/economical climate is absurd. It is also absurd to think that said 18 year old kid has any real grasp on the oath they took and the Constitutional principles that the oath is defending. 99.999% of all service members believe that they are serving their nation and it's people and their way of life. They believe that they are serving the interests of their nation, not ever realizing that said interests are in fact unconstitutional and designed for corporations, banks, and the politicians who serve them to profit and gain more control. The average service member has no idea that they are pawns in a global imperialistic game being played by the world's central banks. I sure didn't. I though I was on the side of good. I now have to wonder how many innocent people were killed as a direct result of my efforts... all in the name of corporate profit. That is something that I now have to live with, and I'm glad that Jesus Christ is a forgiving and merciful God.

I do believe that Vets have earned their benefits, regardless of what you think about their mission. I actually agree with you on most of your points, however I feel that your frustration should be directed at the system and those who control it and not the Vets. It was the American people that let this country slip away while the Vets were overseas fighting. Sure, you could make the argument that they should have never been there in the first place, and I would agree with you, but the reality of it all is that they WERE there, and now they are due the benefits promised them.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:32 PM
link   
reply to post by imasheep
 


I hold the belief that, in a republic, there should be no distinction between "citizen" and "soldier."

When there is a schism between the two, the civilians typically have to forsake their rights because of the sacrifices made by the soldiers.

In the United States we have forgotten that freedom and responsibility go hand-in-hand. Meaning that, it is no other person's responsibility to defend your liberty.

Every county should have its own, autonomous militia. Each county militia should comprise a state's fighting force. Every man and women, if they are natural citizens of the Union, should be members of their county's local militia.

And we should receive zero benefits for doing what we are supposed to do.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:33 PM
link   
When does the part about 'against all enemies, both foreign and DOMESTIC' kick in?

Because we really need you guys to take your training and your weaponry and your bravery and arrest the people who got us into this mess. It's a few hundred worldwide, should be a slam dunk.

Waterboard the lot of 'em for info and lets get ALL the redacted and Top Secret information out there for the world to finally get a grip on.

We can't work with reality until we know the truth of it.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:33 PM
link   
reply to post by imasheep
 


I can't speak for veterans but I will say that I don't demand respect from anyone. I don't really care what you think of me or my service to this country. I sleep just fine at night despite the rants from people like you. The overwhelming majority of veterans served honorably and as far as I'm concerned just want to live their lives and be left alone.

Should our families not receive the death benefits we were promised in the event we don't return home? That is a huge sacrifice for them, is it not?

Should veterans who were injured in war while serving their country not be treated for their injuries?

Should veterans not be permitted to quietly mourn their fallen comrades at a memorial site?

Are these things too much to ask? I don't think so.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:39 PM
link   
reply to post by Bisman
 



i also could give a crap about the vets from our current war(s) this decade.
i wasnt aware there was a draft (oh there wasnt). at least that would earn some respect, even if i disagree with the wars.


but imo, i KNOW my freedoms arent being threatened by our vague enemies we are currently fighting. and all the current accomplishments from these wars hasnt made me feel any safer yet. then why should i be patting these guys on the backs? im not the sucker that fought for nothing, to return to nothing. thats THEIR mistake.


Kinda strange............

I just read some of your past posts and it appears to me you are not happy of the pending and current police state. (nor am I)

So let me ask you this, do you think it wise to bash those whom we ALL need to rely on when and if it comes down for them to disobey an order to fire on their own citizens????

Perhaps you need to rethink how you belittle them? Without them to help us we don't stand a chance on defeating the tyranny we are facing..........



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:42 PM
link   
reply to post by seeker1963
 


but they wont disobey an order to shoot us.
their questionable intellect is why they blindly enlisted in the first place.
some people love being followers. they neither understand, nor want to, the truth of the world.
and when it hits them and all is clear to everyone, they are already in the system and safe, so they will play it out.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:48 PM
link   
The only vets we actually owe something to are the WW2 vets. Because if they hadn't gone to war and had they not won the shipping war to keep england supplied, then there's a chance we might have lost everything. Of course that too is hard to say as the US were building the Abmb but still if they lost all of europe long term they'd be screwed. As the nazi's would have taken over most likely all of europe africa russia and the middle east. So I think they're owed a bit, but all the rest of the vets, those were all BS wars. We had the bmb by that time, we were fully protected. We didn't need to go to any of the wars after ww2. The only reason we did was so that big corporations could make more money. But all soldiers are signing a deal with the devil so if they get screwed in the end they can't blame anyone but themselves.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:49 PM
link   
reply to post by Bisman
 



but they wont disobey an order to shoot us.
their questionable intellect is why they blindly enlisted in the first place.
some people love being followers. they neither understand, nor want to, the truth of the world.
and when it hits them and all is clear to everyone, they are already in the system and safe, so they will play it out.


I beg to differ...

Most of them signed up because their elected officials chose to allow the global corporations in this country to go overseas for cheap labor! Did you ever think that they signed up to keep their family afloat versus just being a bunch of idiots who thought it was cool to kill????

I served and as much as I dislike my current form of government, I sure as hell am not going to bash those whom are just trying to do their job so that their families can survive!

My anger goes out towards our elected officials whom force them into the situation that they are forced into!

Pissing off the troops because you feel they are an easier target than the government whom is telling them what to do, is the epitome of cowardice!

EDIT: I was this same kind of rhetoric during the Vietnam War. Now years later the fact come out and show how it was BS.....History repeats itself. Don't fall into the trap of vilifying those whom serve. They are not the ones responsible for calling the shots!
edit on 12-10-2013 by seeker1963 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:54 PM
link   
reply to post by Bisman
 



but they wont disobey an order to shoot us. their questionable intellect is why they blindly enlisted in the first place.
some people love being followers. they neither understand, nor want to, the truth of the world.

First of all, you'd better hope you're wrong about that or you're in deep trouble. Second, we're talking about veterans here not active duty military. Most veterans know exactly what's going on and are on the right team.



and when it hits them and all is clear to everyone, they are already in the system and safe, so they will play it out.
Certainly some will go along...nobody is perfect. However, the chances of the entire US military firing on us citizens on us soil is far fetched. We're not the dumb asses you seem to think we are. Stop generalizing and stereotyping and go meet some military members. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 04:57 PM
link   
Soldiers defend 'peace, liberty, freedom, etc.'

Children are murdered by drone strikes by our military.

Call it an "over-generalization" if you'd like but the families that have not only their land torn apart, but their souls too, would consider it tyranny.

Like Noam Chumsky said, "Support the troops" is phenomenal propaganda. Notice how it's not "Support our foreign policy. It's a hollow slogan built on a very sophisticated and well fabricated.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 05:06 PM
link   
reply to post by watchitburn
 


A well thought out reply sir, but also full of fallacies.

1st...claiming that our armed servicemen are "too young to know what they're doing" is not an excuse, much the same as ignorance of the law is no excuse. They are old enough to know right from wrong as well as old enough to sign said contract.

2nd: I mis spoke...there are literally thousands of violations committed by servicemen. I can use just one example: The use of radio active rounds in Iraq. Every single bullet fired by all active personnel in Iraq was a war crime punishable by death. It violates every single treaty currently followed by all nations. It is chemical warfare on a grand scale. So every person who fired their weapon in Iraq is guilty of violating both the US Constitution and the contract they signed.

While I can't argue your point that all vets don't demand respect, it is the truth to me in my experience.

The contract they signed upon signing up explicitly states that they will not violate the US Constitution or any treaty in the completion of their duties. The vast majority have violated that implicintly. Furthermore, those that toe the line and haven't violated their contract due to their own actions, they are just as guilty as those that do for lack of arresting the offenders and continuing to fight for a corrupt government.

Their contracts are null and void the moment they fired radioactive rounds in Iraq. Both parties must follow a contract to a T. The vets didn't, so they are due nothing.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 05:07 PM
link   

signalfire
When does the part about 'against all enemies, both foreign and DOMESTIC' kick in?

Because we really need you guys to take your training and your weaponry and your bravery and arrest the people who got us into this mess. It's a few hundred worldwide, should be a slam dunk.

Waterboard the lot of 'em for info and lets get ALL the redacted and Top Secret information out there for the world to finally get a grip on.

We can't work with reality until we know the truth of it.


Well, you see there's a problem with that. Any military takeover of the US government will be seen by the people of this country through the eyes of the mass media. And I think we all know what side the media is going to take. Therefore, the people of the country are going to see it as a military coup, and a threat to our freedoms, and way of life. That's when all hell breaks loose, and the military becomes the enemy, rather than the heroes.

ETA: Our government isn't stupid. There's a reason the American people are still armed. They know we will fight to the death against any invasion, and save their sorry butts. However, when the day comes they don't need us armed any more, the guns and ammo will be taken away.
edit on 10/12/2013 by Klassified because: eta



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 05:16 PM
link   
reply to post by Klassified
 


Your whole post sounds good at a glance by someone who doesn't know any better, luckily, I do.

Arguing that the war never shouldn't have happened isn't an argument...it did happen. Yes, we sent them there, but that isn't a justification for committting war crimes in the name of the American public.

The contract they signed doesnt mention that we will pay them benefits "no matter what." We The People are lawfully supposed to fulfill our end of the contract, providing the servicemen follow there's. Once any crime is committed by the signer of the contract, the contract is null and void. Its the very essence of what a contract means.

You can't claim ignorance, you can't claim what they have done is right, otherwise what is the point of a contract??

Once one serviceman violated the US Constituution by firing Uranium rounds in Iraq, every other veteran became just as guilty by not doing anything about it.

Add to that, the oath every vet takes to uphold the Constitution has been violated since Vietnam by not removing the corrupt and unconstitutional government, and I defy anyone to claim that any vet has upheld their end of the bargain.

I realize that doesn't sound good, and makes people hate me, but if we allow the rule of law to be circumvented by excuses, then why be a Republic at all?



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 05:18 PM
link   
reply to post by RomeByFire
 


Children are murdered by drone strikes by our military.

Call it an "over-generalization" if you'd like but the families that have not only their land torn apart, but their souls too, would consider it tyranny.

Drone strikes on children? Talk about propaganda. LOL

Do you REALLY think military members are complicit in rare instances like that? Do you think that's what we do? Give me a break...you should be smarter than that.

I understand many here (including myself) are more than unhappy with the foreign (and domestic) policy this country has had over the past several decades but to act as though all of the honorable men and women who have served in the US military during that time are to blame is beyond ignorant. I've never fired on a civilian. I've never been ordered to fire on a civilian. I don't know anybody who ever fired on a civilian. I was actually there for a brief time. How about you?

Leave veterans alone. We don't want your respect and certainly don't expect it. We want to live free like you. Most of us share your disgust with government. Stop alienating us. You may very we'll need us one day.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 05:22 PM
link   
reply to post by imasheep
 



Arguing that the war never shouldn't have happened isn't an argument...it did happen. Yes, we sent them there, but that isn't a justification for committting war crimes in the name of the American public.

The contract they signed doesnt mention that we will pay them benefits "no matter what." We The People are lawfully supposed to fulfill our end of the contract, providing the servicemen follow there's. Once any crime is committed by the signer of the contract, the contract is null and void. Its the very essence of what a contract means.


Their contract also didn't state, "You will be thrown into a *snitstorm* where you will find out you either kill or be killed is the norm for the day!!!

If you want to attack the governments whom force these men/women into these situations, then fine! But if you want to avoid doing that, then your whole OP is based on nothing more than bashing those whom are forced into a survival situation!!!!!

I hate to say it, but "I hope you find yourself in that kind of predicament someday! Maybe you won't be so quick to criticize!"!!!!!!



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 05:24 PM
link   
reply to post by Bisman
 



As I replied to another poster...It doesn't matter if you joined just "to see the world." That is an absurd argument. Try getting a mortgage and then telling the bank you aren't going to pay because you were just bored or didn't understand.
I've been 18, and I would understand any contract.

Also, most vets aren't 18, they are well into their twenties and thirties.

You also cannot claim that its "not them, its the system." That isn't even a logical argument. Once they signed up, they became a part of "the military complex." To excuse them because there are higher powers at work is just asinine.

Fact is, by joining that "club" and following orders which violate the Constitution, they broke their contract with the People and helped to facilitate war crimes on a scale far worse than Hitler could have ever accomplished.

Are you against what Hitler did? If so, then there's no real argument you could offer as to how this is any different.





new topics

top topics



 
14
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join