Magical Egypt and how the Pyramids were built.

mcx1942
I guess I could be wrong but Schoch does not seem like one that would just dive into flights of fancy.

You should get to know him better, then.

Yesterday I examined geologist Robert M. Schoch’s attempt to radically revise human history by claiming that the Easter Island writing system, traditionally dated to c. 1200-1500 CE, is in fact 10,000 years older. This claim appeared in part one of a two-part article. Today, let’s take a look at the second part, “The Mystery of Göbekli Tepe and Its Message for Us,” which appeared in New Dawn magazine’s September-October 2010 issue.





In this article, Schoch explores the Turkish site of Göbekli Tepe, a complex of carved stone circles erected around 12,000 years ago. This site is spectacular, and its existence has called into question the accepted narrative of the development of civilization because there is no evidence of agriculture, permanent settlement, or any of the other hallmarks of civilization at the site. In short, it appears to have been built by hunter-gatherers coming together for ceremonial/ritual purposes.

But for Robert Schoch, that’s not good enough. It has to be something more. Schoch begins his article by recounting how “had the temerity” to radically re-date the Great Sphinx at Giza to 7000-5000 BCE based on his claim, unsupported by other geologists, that the monument was eroded by precipitation rather than forces common to the area’s desert environment.

Schoch admits that Egyptologists refused to recognize his revised dating due to the complete lack of any archaeological evidence for a civilization living and working around Giza in 7000 BCE. He quotes Egyptologist Mark Lehner in order to set up a clever straw man argument:

If the Sphinx was built by an earlier culture, where is the evidence of that civilisation? Where are the pottery shards? People during that age were hunters and gatherers. They didn’t build cities.

Do you see where this is going? Göbekli Tepe was constructed by hunter gatherers without cities; therefore, the Sphinx was, too. QED. It’s a cute argument, and it superficially makes sense. However, at Göbekli Tepe we have evidence for the people who built the site, including the temporary settlements they used while building it, a thousand-year-long record of their occupation, the trash left over from the food they ate, examples of the tools they used, and so on. The stone circles do not exist in isolation. There is none of that at the Sphinx. Lehner’s quotation is a straw man; there is still no context for a people who would have built the Sphinx in 7000 BCE.

SNIP

Schoch argues that the pillars at Göbekli Tepe and the moai at Easter Island are closely related because they both depict stylized human figures with thin hands—you know, just 11,500 years apart with no intervening cultures either in time or space. The moai, one might note, depict large Polynesian heads, while the Turkish pillars are shaped like the letter T and have no heads. Also, the Turkish site features a carving of a bird as does Easter Island does. Could it be due to the fact that there are birds in both places? “In counterargument, I question whether we really know when Easter Island was first colonized,” Schoch says. Well, yes, we do, and as a geologist he should have some sort of connection to reality and understand how archaeologists date sites. There is an argument among scholars whether Easter Island was settled as early as 300 CE or as late as 1200 CE, but no one supports a date of 7000 to 10,000 BCE.

Isn’t it weird that Schoch celebrates radiocarbon dates when they place Göbekli Tepe at 10,000 BCE but when they place Easter Island in the period of 300-1200 CE suddenly we can’t “really know”? That’s what happens when you cross over from science to pseudoscience: Suddenly evidence is transactional, applicable only when it supports your crazy theories.

Sourc e

Harte

reply to post by Hanslune

Hanslune

mcx1942
reply to post by Hanslune

 

As to Yonaguni, indeed he said it was natural and I agree but you're leaving out the rest of his summery.

However you didn't reply to my main point why do you not look at or consider the other viewpoints on erosion, why only Schochs?

Sorry, you must of not understood. I did. Please read my replies to you in their entirety. Here it is:

mcx1942
reply to post by Hanslune

 

As to the other theories in the wiki link, haloclasty is intriguing, and it is a theory along with all the other theories. I have never said any of them are wrong or right, I just posted info relevant to this thread.

Just like I said in my earlier post, I never once said I only accept Schoch's theory. I said I find it extremely intriguing. I think you're so used to trying to blow holes in every fringe thread that you just assume that I would believe he is correct. I purposely construct the wording of all my ancient civilization posts to include "theory" quite often. Because at the end of the day, it is all subjective theorizing.

When it comes down to it, the history books are obviously not complete, many different theories may come to fruition.

Also...

Hanslune

We call this the super special catastrophe, it destroys everything but not stone monuments - it somehow took away stone tools, habitations levels, pottery, sediments and everything else, but left stone monuments.

There is really no need to be snide to myself or to the other members. So what if some random person has an idea or interest in something you do not agree with. There is loads of stuff(especially on ATS) that I think is B.S. and completely idiotic but I do not feel the need to go post on their thread that they are wrong and only I am right.

I think your heart is in the right place, I just feel you could be a little more diplomatic about it. Cases in point, how you just assumed I think Schoch is right and your last quote I used here.

As to the "super special catastrophe" you tacitly stated. How long have we been keeping track of what occurs in this Universe? Is it not possible we have not seen all the types of extinction level events that are out there, lurking about in this crazy place called the cosmos?

In conclusion, the majority of ancient history is still in the theoretical phase. I think it is silly to just shut out all other possibilities. I choose to remain skeptically- open minded, about everything.

reply to post by Harte


Man, you really dialed that post in Harte, come on lol. I figured you might have a wealth of knowledge about this. Just a ginormous wall of copy and paste lol. (jk)

First off, the two articles from the two authors, written by Schoch and Colavito(blogger). So other readers can get the entire story and make up their own minds. Their names will link them to a bio page, I use each author's personal site to keep it "fair and square". Take note I even list Colavito first. :thumbsup:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jason Colavito

Rongorongo A-Go-Go: Robert Schoch's 12,000-Year Easter Island Delusion- www.jasoncolavito.com...

Robert Schoch's Wacky Easter Island-Gobekli Tepe Theory: The Hypocrisy of Alternative Dating- www.jasoncolavito.com...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Robert Schoch

An Ancient Warning, A Global Message, From the End of the Last Ice Age- www.robertschoch.com... (Easter Island)

The Mystery of Göbekli Tepe and Its Message to Us- www.robertschoch.com...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look, just like I said to Hanslune. I did not say I think he is correct and everybody needs to believe him. I just created a constructive post with relevant information pertaining to the topic. I have never once stated any of the information I decide to post is correct. I decisively use the word "theory". Sometimes I wonder if people forget/know the true definition the word.

I think the author of that blog you sourced is suffering from a bit of the "snideness". Also, he is really just an author with a bachelors of arts degree in archaeology and journalism. Not a bona fide expert if you ask me. I'm not putting the blogger down, just my opinion.

I think all the theories are possible(academic and fringe), some may be more plausible or probable. I try to stay open minded to all.

reply to post by FreeMason



FreeMason, you know what masons teach about the history of Egypt?

In a nut shell:

"Enoch knew would soon overwhelm the world in one
vast sea of ruin, he raised two columns on the hill, one of brass to resist water,
the other of granite to withstand fire. On the column of granite he inscribed a
description of the subterranean arches, on the other the rudiments of the arts
and sciences. The column of granite was swept into a shapeless mass by the
flood, but that of brass stood firm for ages after the deluge"

"Mizraim, the grandson of Ham, led colonies into Egypt, and laid the
foundation of that Kingdom. The colonists carried with them the sacred delta
of the Patriarch Enoch, and confided it to the care of the hierophants or priests,
who carefully preserved it in their splendid temples on the banks of the Nile"

"On the banks of the Nile, whilst the august guardians of the Traditions veiled them from contemporary eyes, and communicated them only to the few whom they deemed worthy of initiation, other adepts in the interior of Africa, assembling barbarous nations, polished their manners, propagated knowledge to them and in short, instituted our secret mysteries among the burning sands of Nubia and Ethiopia"

"Cambyses carried sword and fire into Egypt and made of it a
theatre of devastation and death. In this frightful overthrow civilization was
arrested at a blow, but though our Sublime Institution slumbered it was not
extinguished. After a short time we hear of it as a secret school embracing two
classes or orders divided into degrees, operative or handicraft, and speculative
or contemplative"

Lectures of the ancient and primitive rite of Freemasonry, John Yarker

mcx1942

I think we can agree on Schoch but out a theory that is still underd ebate but at this point unaccepted by the mainstream.

There is really no need to be snide to myself or to the other members. So what if some random person has an idea or interest in something you do not agree with. There is loads of stuff(especially on ATS) that I think is B.S. and completely idiotic but I do not feel the need to go post on their thread that they are wrong and only I am right.

I was pointing out that the idea stone monuments would survive and nothing else was shall we say, unscientific, I do apologize for an excess of zeal on my part, I actually blame Harte who is a bad influence on me!

As to the "super special catastrophe" you tacitly stated. How long have we been keeping track of what occurs in this Universe? Is it not possible we have not seen all the types of extinction level events that are out there, lurking about in this crazy place called the cosmos?

I cannot image what sort of natural occurence would leave limestone blocks okay but seek out and destroy stone tools and pottery buried in the ground while at the same time leaving no trace of its action.

In conclusion, the majority of ancient history is still in the theoretical phase. I think it is silly to just shut out all other possibilities. I choose to remain skeptically- open minded, about everything.

From our investigation there are some possibilities which remain theoritical but highly implausible and improbable.

Just had to comment on this one....

mcx1942
reply to post by Hanslune

 

Hawass replied: "Of course it is not possible for one reason …. No single artefact, no single inscription, or pottery, or anything has been found until now, in any place to predate the Egyptian civilization more than 5,000 years ago."

source

I wonder if that's taken out of context or if he said more than that, because the Egyptian Dynasty 0 goes back to at least 6,000 BC (8,000 years ago: en.wikipedia.org... .) The actual archeaological history of the people in the area goes back 120,000 years (homo erectus), with very distinctive types of spearpoints and hand axes. The oldest mines (they mined for flint and chert) in Egypt are at Nazlet Khater and date back to 35,000 BC.

People tend to think of Hawass as THE expert on Egypt, but the truth is he's an expert in only a relatively small part of the discipline. He focused more on Giza and on the New Kingdom/Late Period (last 1,000 years or so of Pharonic Egypt) and beyond those two topics has only a very deep general knowledge of the rest of it. There are others, such as Allen, who are expert in Middle Kingdom chronologies, and Moran certainly on the letters of Ahkenaten... and so forth.)

In any case, the quote there is not entirely correct.

mcx1942
reply to post by Harte

 

Man, you really dialed that post in Harte, come on lol. I figured you might have a wealth of knowledge about this. Just a ginormous wall of copy and paste lol.

(jk)

First off, the two articles from the two authors, written by Schoch and Colavito(blogger). So other readers can get the entire story and make up their own minds. Their names will link them to a bio page, I use each author's personal site to keep it "fair and square". Take note I even list Colavito first. :thumbsup:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jason Colavito

Rongorongo A-Go-Go: Robert Schoch's 12,000-Year Easter Island Delusion- www.jasoncolavito.com...

Robert Schoch's Wacky Easter Island-Gobekli Tepe Theory: The Hypocrisy of Alternative Dating- www.jasoncolavito.com...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Robert Schoch

An Ancient Warning, A Global Message, From the End of the Last Ice Age- www.robertschoch.com... (Easter Island)

The Mystery of Göbekli Tepe and Its Message to Us- www.robertschoch.com...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look, just like I said to Hanslune. I did not say I think he is correct and everybody needs to believe him. I just created a constructive post with relevant information pertaining to the topic. I have never once stated any of the information I decide to post is correct. I decisively use the word "theory". Sometimes I wonder if people forget/know the true definition the word.

I think the author of that blog you sourced is suffering from a bit of the "snideness". Also, he is really just an author with a bachelors of arts degree in archaeology and journalism. Not a bona fide expert if you ask me. I'm not putting the blogger down, just my opinion.

I think all the theories are possible(academic and fringe), some may be more plausible or probable. I try to stay open minded to all.

edit on 10/15/2013 by mcx1942 because: asthetics

I used to provide much more content on things like this.

It's not worth my time as the people I was replying to weren't even checking their own facts.

Schoch is a woo woo fringie deluxe.

Just sayin.'

Harte

reply to post by Harte


I think he more a competent geologist with fringe beliefs

reply to post by FreeMason


Thanks for the link to the video. Unfortunately, I have to wait until I get to a location with better bandwidth to view it.

I remember recently seeing someone present a theory that the pyramid builders used ramps on both inside and outside to drag the blocks in place. Does the linked video touch on that?

Something I've been wondering is whether any models and/or simulations exist to show the feasibility of either traditional or nontraditional building techniques. I've seen a few documentaries that state theoretical numbers of workers required to build the pyramids over some reasonable amount of time. I know there have been several experiments that provide some insight into the intricacies of working, moving, and placing the pyramid building material. I would be interested in seeing some online links, if anyone has some bookmarked.


Dex

Hanslune
reply to post by Harte

 

I think he more a competent geologist with fringe beliefs

You forgot the "deluxe" part, which he is.

When I responded previously with hardly anything but quotes, I was trying to show the previous poster that Schoch had many other ideas which were utterly ludricrous, making his sphinx claim look almost academic. That poster had stated that, since Schoch was a legitimate member of academia, he had a hard time believing Schoch's sphinx claim wasn't grounded in evidence.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


He does seem to have gone more fringy since he got tenure

I have only had time to watch the first video but I am fascinated by the concept that the Ancient Egyptians considered Amun to be the embodiment of the laws of nature which created man. (When one links that to religious teaching about God, for the first time for me I can suddenly start to get a handle on the mystery of God). The part of Amun being the animator of form and the breath moving over the water helps explain some of the borrowed concepts in the Bible.

Also the fact that the Fibonacci series is a template of life and its cycles of growth, expansion and organic change, all knowledge known by these ancient people is amazing to me. I really look forward having time to see the rest of this series.

There are cave paintings of people swimming in the Sahara so I don't see why there is so much concern about the water erosion down the side of the Spinx - from which I am also wondering if perhaps its original head may not have been a Ram that was later changed for some reason.

Hanslune
reply to post by Harte

 

He does seem to have gone more fringy since he got tenure

Perfectly understandable.

Who among us hasn't? LOL

Harte

Shiloh7
Also the fact that the Fibonacci series is a template of life and its cycles of growth, expansion and organic change, all knowledge known by these ancient people is amazing to me.

Is there some reason you believe that the Fibonnaci series was known to the Ancient Egyptians?

Harte

reply to post by Harte


Yes it some one draws a circle that doesn't mean they now Pi, that the world is round or that it is in a (sic) circular orbit. It means they know how to draw a circle.

THe question of how the pyramids baffled me for years, UNTIL I realised that there was a machine that COULD have been built by them, that we know of today, that COULD lift stones that big.

THe reason why it has been a mystery for years is that I realised that people were asking the wrong questions.

People keep asking how did they move the stones?
How dis they put all these temples on the tops of mountains in South America etc?
How did they build them with such big stones?

In reality, the questions should be...
Why did they move the stones?
Why did they put all these temples on the tops of mountains?
Why did they build them with such big stones?

The one and only answer leads to how it was done.

THe answer to each every one of those questions is simply, because ti was EASIER.

It was EASIER to move the stones.
It was EASIER to put all these temples on the tops of mountains.
It was EASIER to build them with such big stones.

reply to post by abacus10


..please don't say balloons

FreeMason

Hanslune

mcx1942
Indeed this is a great series!

John Anthony West has definitely stirred stuff up over the years. I am extremely fascinated with his and Dr. Robert Schoch's proposal about the evidence of water erosion on the Sphinx and especially evident on the walls of the enclosure itself. The walls present more water erosion than the Sphinx because it has not been 'worked' on over the years by many cultures as the good old Sphinx has. The walls in the enclosure, according to Schoch(Ph.D. in geology) display erosion patterns of water and not sand as what is believed in the mainstream. Moving the date back. Some compelling work, for sure.

Why look only at one side of a scientific argument? What is the counter-argument to their claims?

That the Sphinx is carved from a natural feature which has been exposed to water erosion over time?

Saw just last night they are believing, some apparently, that the sphinx maybe thousands of years older than the pyramids. They dated something in the layers while digging around it. This is very interesting and could lend some credence to the ancient alien theorists out there lol.

States tuned.

The Bot