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Questions for Christians

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posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 

These are the thoughts I deal with as I try to believe in Jesus. I wouldn't expect you to understand.
my "sun is the son" comment wasn't meant to be taken literally. I'm looking for feedback about the parallels and symbolotry involved.



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 10:36 AM
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TruthLover557



Of course there are astrological parallels! God is the creator of all that we know. His handy work is everywhere and in everything he created. The sun rises and sets because he made it so. God sent his son so that we might believe. Finding parallels in nature is recognizing the creator.


Thanks for the reply. This is what I was thinking as well.



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 



It's not the Christian idea we fell from God due to a selfish nature. It was disobedience, not selfishness.


If God forgave you, would you be able to forgive yourself? Or would you insist on remaining beholden to him? If God let you go, would you cling to him?


Obey God, believe Satan. That's a choice. They made the wrong one. You are supposed to be grateful that God gave you a way out of "slavery" despite you causing the problem yourself.


God is all-knowing and all-powerful. And yet he put that tree in the one place they could reach it, allowed his worst creation to sneak into the garden, and allowed Eve to take the fruit and bite into it. He was there every second, watching and listening as his worst enemy killed his children - and did nothing. There were a million ways he could have instantly and effortlessly prevented it. But he didn't.

Something is very, very off about that whole situation. Given how much power God apparently has and has always had, the fall of man is a very suspicious event. The problem with being the almighty ruler of the universe is that it makes it difficult to pull off that kind of deception without people asking questions. You can't sabotage your own work without raising an eyebrow somewhere. That's exactly what it was - sabotage. God sabotaged his own children. There was a million ways to keep that apple situation from happening, but only one way to make sure it did happen. And whadaya know, the one person who could make it happen was there the whole freakin' time. That's just slightly coincidental. Raising eyebrows everywhere, amirite?

And this eyebrow is one of them.




edit on 11-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 11:43 AM
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Tucket
reply to post by badgerprints
 


We separated from God in the beginning right? Was this because of a selfish nature before we encountered Satan? Or was our selfishness stimulated by Satan.

Yes we decide who we want to be. I consider myself a good person. Do unto others.. But thoughts run through my head that don't coincide with Jesus. Jesus says something about even thinking about adultery is sin..


As long as you are into it. God hates sin, but Jesus loves everybody.
I don't see a need to debate over tiny issues like what I was thinking before making the right decision.
We're all imperfect but part of life is doing the right thing even when it's not so easy.


Jesus also said to hate the sin and love the sinner.
That includes loving yourself.
I think that leaves enough leeway to get through life without agonizing over every thought.

As far as a selfish nature...I feel pretty self oriented and have a "me first" attitude. At the same time, people tell me quite often that I'm one of the most giving people they know.
I just think I have more to give because I work to make sure I have the means to provide for myself.
Thus, because of being self oriented I have the ability to be more selfless. So how is that a sin?

Our acts aren't necessarily dictated by our thoughts...or our nature.

Just for the record. I believe blaming our "nature" is simply an avoidance of responsibility for our actions.



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 12:02 PM
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You say God let Satan in and that was it, but you skip the most pertinent part. They listened to him and believed him when he said "ye shall not surely die".

Original sin, as a doctrine, is (at least to me) a difficult concept. I think this is because it is not expressly stated in scripture but rather based on differing interpretations. The idea that makes the most sense to me is that we inherit a sinful nature but not the guilt of the actual sin. To be guilty of a sin one must willfully disobey a known commandment of God.

Also you say that we were handed over to Satan from the start and we didn't have a chance. While I think that the unfairness of the situation may sound accurate because of the way we experience life. One must take into consideration that Adam and Eve often found themselves in the presence of God, were immortal, and received their commandments verbally from God. The magnitude of the disobedience is better understood in this way.

Yes you are supposed to be entirely obedient. However God clearly understands that you can't. If one could Christ's sacrifice would have been unnecessary. If it were possible for an individual to personally defeat sin, God would require you to do so. It's not possible and thus Christ was provided as the eternal sacrifice for the remission of sin.

Because of God's grace the choice that one faces, which holds bearing on the fate one's soul is no longer between obedience and disobedience (although as Paul stated a true Christian strives towards perfect obedience) but rather between accepting Christ or not. For this you are meant to be grateful and to him you are meant to be faithful.

In my opinion Zeitgeist is ridiculous. As per the "astrological" theory I believe this link debunks it quite handily.
www.tracer345.org...



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by Josephus
 



You say God let Satan in and that was it, but you skip the most pertinent part. They listened to him and believed him when he said "ye shall not surely die".


I don't think that's the most pertinent part. You are blaming the ignorant for making a mistake instead of the almighty for engineering that mistake. There was only one way Eve could have gotten hold of that apple, only one way that snake could have convinced her to, only one way they could have ever known about that tree: God wanted it to happen. There was a million ways to prevent it from ever happening, a million ways to make sure neither Adam nor Eve ever knew about the tree, a million ways to make sure that snake never came within a hundred miles of them. But there was only one way that the tree could have been within their reach, the apples easily accessed, the snake so readily available to seduce Eve into breaking that rule. God took the only course of action by which Adam and Eve could disobey him. His actions guaranteed their betrayal, in a way that could only have been deliberate. God pretends to be the victim, but no victim has ever been as powerful as he was at that time. He was literally too strong to ever have been taken advantage of. There was no way to surprise him or resist him. That's what "omniscient and omnipotent" means.

And you expect me to believe that Adam and Eve should be held guilty? If anything, God should be held accountable for his conspiracy against his children.


Yes you are supposed to be entirely obedient. However God clearly understands that you can't. If one could Christ's sacrifice would have been unnecessary. If it were possible for an individual to personally defeat sin, God would require you to do so. It's not possible and thus Christ was provided as the eternal sacrifice for the remission of sin.


I require no forgiveness for being born a subject of this universe. Having been born as such, it would be entirely unreasonable to expect anything of me other than a nature befitting a universe of change and experiment. I will do nothing perfect the first time. I will not always succeed. I will see to it that my needs are met, as that is what my biology demands. I will not hold myself in debt because I can't choose to be whatever I want, regardless of how blatantly it crosses the grain of this universe. I will not be ashamed because I'm not powerful enough to have my way in spite of how well or how poorly my way meshes with the nature of this reality. I am human, I rely on mistakes in order to learn, I have developed with the capacity for a limited range of functions, and I accept that. It's not my problem if he didn't realize what he was making.


Because of God's grace the choice that one faces, which holds bearing on the fate one's soul is no longer between obedience and disobedience (although as Paul stated a true Christian strives towards perfect obedience) but rather between accepting Christ or not. For this you are meant to be grateful and to him you are meant to be faithful.


I choose to be independent. I will forge my own fate. I hope that's not a problem. I've never needed a god, and I don't expect that I ever will. I don't deserve any more help than the children starving in Africa or the women being raped in Iraq or the animals getting beaten in slums across America. If a baby dies of disease because no god was willing to save it, who am I to ask for any more?




edit on 11-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 12:47 PM
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Tucket
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 

These are the thoughts I deal with as I try to believe in Jesus. I wouldn't expect you to understand.
my "sun is the son" comment wasn't meant to be taken literally. I'm looking for feedback about the parallels and symbolotry involved.


The precession of the equinox and constellations were metioned in the Book of Job. The Hebrew word is Mazaroth. It is probable that prior to the Age of Hebrews, God left a messianic summary of human history in the stars. Not for the purpose of modern astrology, but to tell of the coming of the Messiah and His triumph over Satan.

Most pagan astrological myths reflect a similar yet distorted story. So Mazaroth (constelations) may have been relavent at some early stage of human history, but the Bible should be our primary source of messianic knowledge today.



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


I am not in opposition to the idea that God desired to test the mettle of his creation. I don't however see how that test ensured failure. At that point faith was not necessary. God's existence and his position as creator was intimately known and was undisputed. With this knowledge they were commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. With this knowledge the choice to believe the serpent was a willful act of disobedience and was therefore a sin.

Our condemnation is a result of our choices not our nature. In fact it is our fallen nature which motivated God to provide a way to overcome sin that was not susceptible to our fallen nature.

No you don't deserve any more help than anyone else. That is why it's called grace because redemption is offered despite our undeserving nature and despite are continual failure to obey his commands.

We all forge our own fate



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by Josephus
 


Thanks for the reply and link. I will try to find other sources to back this up. The authors credibility comes into question a bit at the end of the article where he suggests that King James wrote the bible in another language besides English. Also, the author is only attempting to debunk a few claims off zeitgeist. There are other, better sources for the astrological evidence. I don't have time now, but I will return in a few hours and provide a link as I have to dig it up out of the archives.



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by Tucket
 


I admit it is worded poorly but he isn't suggesting that King James (rather those under his patronage) wrote the Bible in other languages. He is saying that the Sun/Son correlation is irrelevant because the Bible was not written in English but rather translated into English from languages in which the words for sun and son bear neither aural similarity nor visual resemblance.



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by Josephus
 



I am not in opposition to the idea that God desired to test the mettle of his creation.


I don't see the point, though. Why ask a question you already know the answer to? He created the answer!


I don't however see how that test ensured failure. At that point faith was not necessary. God's existence and his position as creator was intimately known and was undisputed.


He knew what would happen. He ensured it would happen that way. If they failed, it was because he meant for them to. He knew they would fail if he did things a certain way, and he chose to do it. You kick a rock, it's because you've accepted that it will move. You don't do things because you don't want them to happen. That's just...insane. And nothing ever happens without his permission, right? Because that would imply that there is a power at least equal to him, that is not him. So if he knew knew exactly how to go about getting what he wanted, and knew intimately the consequences of his actions before he actually committed them, and still went ahead with it, that's him saying, "I want this to happen."

Logically speaking, that's the only conclusion that can be reached. God sabotaged his children, and we're apparently being punished for it thousands of years later.


With this knowledge they were commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. With this knowledge the choice to believe the serpent was a willful act of disobedience and was therefore a sin.


But how could he has not known what was going to happen? Before anything was ever created, he knew. He's omniscient, right? That's what omniscient means. He put that tree there knowing it would doom his children. He allowed Satan into that garden because he knew the snake would succeed. He told them not to touch it even though he knew they would. He's omnipresent, right? He was there the whole time. He listened to the snake seducing her, saw her take the fruit, watched her share it with Adam. And he did nothing. He could have put the tree ANYWHERE ELSE in the universe. But he put it in the one place they could reach it. He could have stopped Satan in ANY WAY HE CHOSE...instantly, effortlessly. But he didn't. He could have appeared there, right next to Eve and Satan, and held a discussion of the pros and cons of eating the fruit. She could have made the decision herself. See, that's free will. If she had listened carefully and decided of her own fully informed free will that the fruit wasn't worth taking, then that would have been the end of it.

Long and short of it is, there was no test. For there to be a test, there must be an unanswered question, and for God, no question is unanswered. He created the answers.


Our condemnation is a result of our choices not our nature. In fact it is our fallen nature which motivated God to provide a way to overcome sin that was not susceptible to our fallen nature.


Do our choices not originate from our nature? How often do you act against your desires, your instincts? How often do you just pretend to be somebody else for a while? Our fallen nature was determined by him. Once again, does he not command all things? Or are we outside of his power? I thought he created us? Does that not include who and what we are? Even sin and Satan. The two most evil things in the universe. They didn't exist before him, did they? And if someone else created them, that would imply God is sharing his universe with a power equal to himself.

You keep trying to come up with excuses, but in the sheer nature of your deity killed his ability to be excused. He's all-powerful. He's all-knowing. He's all-present. As the most powerful being in all of existence, exactly what excuse does he have? There's my question for the Christians.

As stated before, I'm merely demonstrating how unsavory a role model the guy makes for our species. I'm also showing how this ridiculous indentured servant crap is completely unnecessary.


No you don't deserve any more help than anyone else. That is why it's called grace because redemption is offered despite our undeserving nature and despite are continual failure to obey his commands.


Hmmm. Well, God has this Divine Plan, right? So every time someone prays, they're asking for something that isn't a part of the Divine Plan. Otherwise, they'd already be getting it, right? And if some kid is starving or a baby is born with a deformity or another kid catches a disease from unsanitary water, or a woman gets raped, or some unfortunate fellow gets shot or stabbed or mugged or just beaten to a pulp in some alley, maybe somebody loses all their money in a break in or gets their car stolen. All those people, their prayers weren't answered. They got a spectacular middle finger from heaven.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with a "deserving nature". That wasn't even the point. I was pointing out how it doesn't work for anyone else. Worshipping and praying to a jug of milk or a grapefruit has proven just as effective as praying to the Abrahamic god. When God fails to save the people who didn't earn their hell, what good will it do me to ask for help?


We all forge our own fate


Yes, we do. Sometimes it's taken out of our hands by the actions of others, but we are the captains of our vessels.
edit on 11-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2013 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by Josephus
 


Hey I searched for that link and realized it actually was the zeitgeist clip. Its been years since I've watched zeitgeist. So yeah, I don't have any thing for you. I could provide other links to astrotheology but it pretty diluted as far as references to Jesus. I've also been searching for information that further debunks zeitgeist but haven't found much. If you have anything else please send it my way. Thanks.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 03:28 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


Look I'm not a theologian, just a believer expressing my own stance. I would not want to serve as an impedance to you as a result of poor explanation. So I'll offer a couple links that I've found which echo my beliefs (confirmation bias much? I know but still it's worth a read.)

On the existence of Evil and Suffering (Particularly the first article titled "There is Too Much Evil and Suffering For God to Exist"

www.godandscience.org...

and

On the efficacy of prayer
www.godandscience.org...



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 08:29 AM
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reply to post by Josephus
 


Confirmation bias is not worth reading. Just like putting on a blindfold before you go to school is not worthwhile.



posted on Oct, 12 2013 @ 05:53 PM
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Tucket
The Christian idea that we fell away from god out of our own selfish nature bothers me. To me it seems like we were just handed over to Satan to be his play things. Most people aren't even given a chance. We are fed lie after lie, poison after poison without having a clue of what's really going on. Vaccines anyone? How is it that its our fault that we are so evil in our nature? Humanity was tricked and programmed to the core with Satan's software from the start. In the beginning we were innocent, then God let Satan in and that was it. Like we had a choice? Or chance? And we are supposed to be faithful, grateful, and obedient in spite off the fact that we are born into a life of slavery?

Another thing that's difficult about following Christ is of course the conspiracy surrounding him. The dogma of Christ appears to be entirely based on astrology. Is it just a parallel that compliments both sides? How does a Christian deal with knowing this?

Any Christians out there care to comment?


Well, the Christian Religion does have many references and borrowed elements from ancient Persian religions such as Mithraism and later Zoroastrianism, which they worshiped a Sun god named Mithras. These religions also were spread across Europe as well, especially in Rome. Hence, the Romans later combined theology from Mithraism with Judaism from the Jews in order to recruit more people into their religion and thus called it Christianity. It started out as Catholicism but later spawned the Protestant Religion due to the rebellion against the Vatican. But even if it spawned a sub-religion, Christianity still had its roots from the ancient Persians. Even Mithraism itself has further roots embedded in history dating back to ancient Egypt. Therefore, you will see references to many "pagan" rites and deities.

The Bible itself was modified many times by the Vatican, and also excluded many important books that gave more esoteric teachings than the Bible you see in your local stores. They modified it in order to merge the two religious theology into one. This is why you will see the story of Jesus having symbolic depictions of astrology. Jesus did exist but not in the exact same way that the Bible presented it.

It's good that you are questioning the Christian Religion. This shows that deep within your being, you want to know God's truth and go beyond the doctrine of man. We were not handed over to Satan. We just happen to live in a world dominated by the Ego (lower mind) and "ruled" by some very dark forces. I will refer you to some of my posts on ATS concerning who we are, who are these dark forces, and what truly is salvation. These posts are designed to open your mind and raise it higher. They are not doctrine nor any kind of dogma taught by religions.

1. Understanding Our True Enemies
2. Truth about salvation
3. Knowing Yourself

edit on 10/12/2013 by ctophil because: (no reason given)



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