Why do Liberals think Libertarians are conservatives?

I consider myself a libertarian and my philosophy is very simple.
I don't what you do or who you do it with.
Just don't do it with my money!

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman


From my experience with the common voter I don't think most liberals (and maybe even conservatives) have ever heard of libertarianism. If they have heard of libertarianism they usually have a purposefully misguided understanding of libertarianism that teaches them why they shouldn't like it.

Conservatives do this as well. To them libertarians are conservatives that want to legally smoke pot.

I generally think of the Green Party when I see the term "liberal," so I don't really like the use of the liberal term in this thread. I think democrats/progressives/authoritarian leftists even would make more sense.

Libertarians are socially liberal yet fisically conservatives. Best of both worlds and without the big government which leads to socialism and the progressive part.


Liberals are really contradictory because freedom and progressivism doesn't go hand and hand. Why would u progressively try to change the constitution when it's one of the greatest documents ever created for a free society. They think it's outdated and needs change, so their banker master can bring in a fascist, corportist, qaisi socialist government operated by the elites. They utilize the democratic method to vote and change America disguising as helping the poor, similar to the method communist countries use.

Conservatives believe in conserving the Constitution Republic aka republican. Why change something that isn't broken? However, the Republican party has been hijack by the progressives which is really no different from the democrats: big government and anti constitutional progressives. But there is a small minority trying to take back the party. They are called extremist by the banker controlled media and the banker controlled two parties.

Democrats think Libertarians are conservatives because Libertarians are similar in many areas of the original Republican party: limited government to maximize freedom without anarchy and pro conserving the constitution.

muse7
Most Libertarians are what I would call "Denialcans" they're in denial and don't want to accept that they are really just Republicans in disguise.

Then your experience is pretty limited. The unfortunate thing about 3rd parties is that most don't get power because when they start to get a following, the major 2 watch them and take bits and pieces of their philosophy and incorporate it into their own. Combine this with the phrases you often hear uttered, "Voting for the lesser of two evils" because people are convinced that there aren't other choices other than Dem or Rep, and the "Voting for third party is a waste because they can't win" people won't vote where their conscience is and vote for the major parties. This is the reason for Republican's claim of "Wanting small government." They don't want small government, they just want the Libertarian aligned voters to vote for them since they know most won't vote Libertarian because either their candidate isn't on the ticket of they believe their candidate won't have a chance of winning.

The same thing can be said about similar parties like for example the Green Party. The green party is the reason why Democrats claim to be for the environment, but you rarely see them do anything to push the environmentally friendly policies except minor lip services and any initiative towards said policies they push are usually the first they compromise on.

Back on topic of Libertarians though, is that for the most part, Libertarians are pro-marriage equality (or gay rights, or whatever you want to call that movement today) because they do not believe the government has a right to dictate who we can or can not marry unless for protectionist reasons (kids aren't mature enough to consent, animals can't consent etc.)

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, you have it backwards, Libertarians aren't Republicans, but Republicans are stealing ideologies from Libertarians as a means to perpetuate the impression that all American's are represented in government and to give the illusion that there is not disfranchisement unless it serves the elite's purpose (racial baiting, etc etc.)

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman


Why do libertarians seem to hate liberals? I guess this would make liberals tend to think libertarians are at the far end of the political spectrum.

Why does the republican party always think they are right?
Why does the democrat party always think they are right?
Why does the Libertarianism party think they are right?


If they are always right, then why is there so much going wrong?

TheJourney
reply to post by muse7

 

Anyone who claims to be a libertarian, and could at all be compared to anything you woukd think of as republican, is not a libertarian...

Simple check: do you believe drugs and prostitution should be legal? If your answer is no, you're not a libertarian.

I choose those because it's a good way to differentiate false 'conservaties' from libertarians.

edit on 12-10-2013 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)

Very true.

Do you believe all drugs should be legalized?
Do you believe prostitution should be legalized?
Do you believe in the NAP?
Do you believe in centralized monopoly of violence/force?
Do you believe in manditory taxes(like the income tax and property tax scams)?
Do you believe in workers ownership of the means of production?
Do you believe in preemptive violence against other countries for profit?

Your not a libertarian if you don't believe in those.

Ooh a piece of candy!

Do you believe all drugs should be legalized?
Nope not all of them. Here's why.. The less harmful, less addictive and natural? Sure why not. That's up to you.
Do you believe prostitution should be legalized?
Wow that sounds like a personal choice.
Do you believe in the NAP?
I don't know what that is.
Do you believe in centralized monopoly of violence/force?
Nope, I do believe we have the right to bare arms though.
Do you believe in manditory taxes(like the income tax and property tax scams)?
Property tax sucks and I wouldn't mind not paying income tax at all.
Do you believe in workers ownership of the means of production?
Not sure I follow? Do you mean.. you make it, you own it, you sell it?
Do you believe in preemptive violence against other countries for profit?
No I do not.

What does this make me?

It's because libertarianism is fiscally conservative. It demands personal accountability. It provides no "handouts" from the government which creates dependency. It believes that people will freely choose to provide for others through charity.

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman


I think you must first ask yourself just how many differences there are between so called Conservatives (your standard run of the mill GOP voter and Tea Partier) and Libertarians? Many have already pointed out here that the Libertarian tag has been hijacked by political shills however I personally don't think this fully explains why people view them as one in the same in any case.

Let's start with identifying the differences. What are the fundamental differences between your standard Conservative/GOPer and your Ron Paul Libertarian? (Notice that I'm not lumping in Mr Glenn Beck and co. in with the Paulers to make them happy).

The Economy:

a) Libertarians (like Ron Paul) believe in changing the tax system, many favor a fair tax system.
b) Conservatives believe this as well. In fact some conservatives like Bachmann have gone further than this to propose eliminating the bulk of all taxes if not all.

Social Issues:

While Libertarians will argue their stance on social issues are merely based on freedom, human rights and states rights, it still doesn't change the fact that they share the same view as your typical GOP/Tea party conservative.

a) Libertarians like Ron Paul believe abortions should either be outlawed or handled by the states
b) Conservatives/Tea partiers believe the same. They both oppose Roe V Wade.

What about the rights of states to ban a sex act between two consenting adults in the privacy of their own home? Lawrence V. Texas 2003?

a) Libertarians like Ron Paul opposed the ruling, stated it should be within the states right to ban such acts in the bedroom.
b) Conservatives/GOPers? Obviously them too.

Look I can go on, I really can. In the end the main differentiation that Libertarians cite between them and your typical run of the mill GOP/Tea Partier is the fact they oppose American involvement in wars abroad and invasive government like the Patriot act. The problem with this is, many GOPers/Tea partiers are now claiming they oppose this too (e.g many oppose intervention in Syria and Libya) so once you take this out, what else is there to differentiate the Ron Paul Libertarian from the GOP/Tea partier? Not much really. Libertarianism is essentially just a rebranding of the conservative movement to suit a younger audience, that's it.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I couldn't help but notice that you didn't cover the difference between libertarians and conservatives on the subjects of drug legalization and abortion.

Southern Guardian
reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman

 

I think you must first ask yourself just how many differences there are between so called Conservatives (your standard run of the mill GOP voter and Tea Partier) and Libertarians? Many have already pointed out here that the Libertarian tag has been hijacked by political shills however I personally don't think this fully explains why people view them as one in the same in any case.

Let's start with identifying the differences. What are the fundamental differences between your standard Conservative/GOPer and your Ron Paul Libertarian? (Notice that I'm not lumping in Mr Glenn Beck and co. in with the Paulers to make them happy).

The Economy:

a) Libertarians (like Ron Paul) believe in changing the tax system, many favor a fair tax system.
b) Conservatives believe this as well. In fact some conservatives like Bachmann have gone further than this to propose eliminating the bulk of all taxes if not all.

Libertarians want to end the Federal Reserve and do away with the IRS and income taxes.

Social Issues:

While Libertarians will argue their stance on social issues are merely based on freedom, human rights and states rights, it still doesn't change the fact that they share the same view as your typical GOP/Tea party conservative.

a) Libertarians like Ron Paul believe abortions should either be outlawed or handled by the states
b) Conservatives/Tea partiers believe the same. They both oppose Roe V Wade.

Um... no Libertarians are about free choice. We prefer abortion to be legal, HOWEVER if it needs to be made illegal, we would defer to states rights.

What about the rights of states to ban a sex act between two consenting adults in the privacy of their own home? Lawrence V. Texas 2003?

a) Libertarians like Ron Paul opposed the ruling, stated it should be within the states right to ban such acts in the bedroom.
b) Conservatives/GOPers? Obviously them too.

Now you are making things up. We do not support sex laws. Again we are PRO-FREE CHOICE.

Look I can go on, I really can. In the end the main differentiation that Libertarians cite between them and your typical run of the mill GOP/Tea Partier is the fact they oppose American involvement in wars abroad and invasive government like the Patriot act. The problem with this is, many GOPers/Tea partiers are now claiming they oppose this too (e.g many oppose intervention in Syria and Libya) so once you take this out, what else is there to differentiate the Ron Paul Libertarian from the GOP/Tea partier? Not much really. Libertarianism is essentially just a rebranding of the conservative movement to suit a younger audience, that's it.

edit on 14-10-2013 by Southern Guardian because: (no reason given)

No you can't. You have demonstrated in this thread that you can type a lot of words to show that you know next to nothing about the Libertarian party (and that you are good at crafting strawman arguments). Which is pretty funny, because all you'd need to do is read this thread to get an idea about what Libertarians stand for. Plenty of us have expressed our political ideals in this thread. I have a suggestion, take a time out and read the rest of this thread before responding to me. You may learn something besides what MSNBC is telling you.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


So, you are taking one libertarian... Ron Paul, who happens to be a conservative Christian, and painting all libertarians with his personal moral views?

And btw, Paul while personally opposed to abortion was still pro-choice. His argument was that it shouldn't be legislated or subsidized by the federal government. It was more a fiscal stance than a moral one.

I am pretty fiercely independent, and have read through this entire thread, and have found some very interesting ideas and points. My question to other independents, is how many times have you had this conversation?

Me: So how do you see yourself politically?

Other Guy: I am a libertarian

Me: Oh yeah, so the government shouldn't interfere with our lives?

Other Guy: Yep, no taxes, no Federal Reserve, no foreign interference.

Me: What about the gays, and abortion, and drugs?

Other Guy: Nope, no abortion for any reason, no same sex marriage, and drugs are bad. There should be constitutional amendments against those.

Obviously, this is written a bit satirically, but everyone of us has had this conversation. I could carry this much further, including food laws, environmental laws, and laws against corporate monopolies, but I think this makes the point. The religious right has co-opted the libertarian movement, and now the Republican Party is trying to absorb them. This is not going to work out well for any of us.

Southern Guardian
reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman

 

I think you must first ask yourself just how many differences there are between so called Conservatives (your standard run of the mill GOP voter and Tea Partier) and Libertarians? Many have already pointed out here that the Libertarian tag has been hijacked by political shills however I personally don't think this fully explains why people view them as one in the same in any case.

Let's start with identifying the differences. What are the fundamental differences between your standard Conservative/GOPer and your Ron Paul Libertarian? (Notice that I'm not lumping in Mr Glenn Beck and co. in with the Paulers to make them happy).

Ron Paul and Gary Johnson are classical neo-liberalists with some libertarian views. They are not a pure libertarians. Stop it. Please.
True Ayn Rand(far right anarchist/libertarian),Noam Chomsky(far left anarchist/libertarian socialist) and Murray Rothbard(anarchist capitalist/libertarian).

The Economy:

a) Libertarians (like Ron Paul) believe in changing the tax system, many favor a fair tax system.
libertarians don't believe in mandatory taxes. pro-Statists believe in mandatory taxes.
b) Conservatives believe this as well. In fact some conservatives like Bachmann have gone further than this to propose eliminating the bulk of all taxes if not all.

Social Issues:

While Libertarians will argue their stance on social issues are merely based on freedom, human rights and states rights, it still doesn't change the fact that they share the same view as your typical GOP/Tea party conservative.
Not true. Libertarians are against the state legislating enforcement of morality.
a) Libertarians like Ron Paul believe abortions should either be outlawed or handled by the states
He's not a libertarian. He's a neo-liberal. Stop it.
b) Conservatives/Tea partiers believe the same. They both oppose Roe V Wade.

What about the rights of states to ban a sex act between two consenting adults in the privacy of their own home? Lawrence V. Texas 2003?

a) Libertarians like Ron Paul opposed the ruling, stated it should be within the states right to ban such acts in the bedroom.
Libertarians are against the state enforcement of morality.So no.
b) Conservatives/GOPers? Obviously them too.

Look I can go on, I really can. In the end the main differentiation that Libertarians cite between them and your typical run of the mill GOP/Tea Partier is the fact they oppose American involvement in wars abroad and invasive government like the Patriot act. The problem with this is, many GOPers/Tea partiers are now claiming they oppose this too (e.g many oppose intervention in Syria and Libya) so once you take this out, what else is there to differentiate the Ron Paul Libertarian from the GOP/Tea partier? Not much really. Libertarianism is essentially just a rebranding of the conservative movement to suit a younger audience, that's it.

Nope.
GOP are pro-statists.
Libertarians are anti-statist pro-volunteerism.
Libertarians believe in the Non-aggression principal and are against imperialist acts of violence.
pro-Statists are FOR imperialist acts of violence and enforcement of the status quo with violence and threats.
Libertarians are against all forms of ruler-ship and use of violence/threats to coerce people into participating in their system.

edit on 14-10-2013 by Southern Guardian because: (no reason given)

No...

Real Libertarians are VERY different from republicans.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Krazysh0t
Libertarians want to end the Federal Reserve and do away with the IRS and income taxes.

So do many none-libertarian GOPers and tea partiers, so? Michelle Bachmann doesn't like the IRS and she'd do away with it. Ted Cruz, certainly not a Libertarian, supports abolishing it and he's a main stream tea party GOPer. Bill Cassidy, lousiana congressman... no libertarian. He is pretty much lock and key with the mainstream GOPers and wants to abolish the IRS. Infact in all reality, conservatives in general do not like the IRS and I doubt many would oppose abolishing or doing away with the IRS and income tax so not sure why this would be a difference at all.

www.huffingtonpost.com...
cassidy.house.gov...

As for the Federal reserve? Most GOPers/tea partiers are not fans of the Federal reserve so not sure where you got this idea that somehow this view is exclusively held by Libertarians? Texas governor Rick Perry, not a fan of the Federal reserve (and cited in part his influence from the 'great' Ron Paul). Allen West? Supports getting rid of the Federal reserve:

allenwestrepublic.com...
dailycaller.com...

And you know what? Sure, you could point to some politicians like Romney or Santorum who have been skeptical about Ron Paul's idea of getting rid of the Federal Reserve but it certainly isn't a view that really sets Libertarians apart from your standard rightwinger, it's certainly not a belief exclusive to Libertarianism.

Now you are making things up. We do not support sex laws. Again we are PRO-FREE CHOICE.

Oh really now? I suppose this is why you kept your mouths shut when these laws were being imposed? Since Libertarians do not support sex laws, where were they during the Lawrence V Texas case that ruled it unconstitutional for states to ban sex acts in the bedroom? I know where Ron Paul was, he was out and about whining about how this should be the right of the State. So you do not support sex laws but you support government enforcing sex laws? Pro-free choice? What does this mean? Libertarians in general oppose abortions on both moral and legal grounds. They support governments having the ability to outright ban it and again while people like you may argue that this is because you believe in the 'fetus are humans' or whatever excuse you decide to pull out, this view is one in the same as that of other conservatives. It's certainly not an exclusively Libertarian held view.

American Libertarianism is essentially the conservative movement rebranded to appeal to a younger audience and that's it. Even for some of the differences that Libertarians love to point out such as their support for states legalizing marijuana, these are not big concerns for conservatives in general.

I have a suggestion,

I have a suggestion as well. If you don't like the way I choose to respond to you, go and debate with someone else.

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman


I actually agree with you to a point there John. Original Libertarianism, the one that originated from Europe, is a rather different beast from the American form of Libertarianism here. What I am addressing in my post is this Ron Paul flavored Libertarianism which in actual fact holds little relation to the original Libertariansm, I fully agree. Many members here (especially the die hard Ron Paul supporters) won't agree though.

I have read this entire thread, as I mentioned before. I have seen those for local control, those for state control, and even a few for national control. This has caused me to pause and seriously think about what we, as a country are facing.

A little scenario:

I decide to open a cafe, I need a city license, and the city/county, or both, health department have to inspect me, I need to register my dba, llc, or corp with the state, and I have to have an FEIN to collect payroll taxes. I also have to deal with the state for unemployment. We won't even talk about liquor licenses, etc.

My little cafe is really successful, and I decide to open another across the state line, in my part of the world, less than 5 miles. Now I have to deal with a different city, county, and state. All I want to do is serve those that would like to dine with me. My world is now taken up with dealing with 2 states, 2 cities, 2 counties, and 1 federal government. My time is now taken up with paperwork, and I cannot handle another location in a different city, county, or state. Where do I go from here?

End scenario:

Now in this day and age, we do not have the state right's issues that we did at the time of the revolution, ie: slavery. To all of libertarians out there, wouldn't it make more sense to have one set of rules for the entire country, than to have them change for every state, county, & city, in my town, even for different parts of town?

I realize this is some way out of the box thinking, but I have lived in 10 different states, probably 14 different counties, and probably 20 different cities. I have traveled to 46 of the 50 states, and I honestly believe the laws should be the same in all 50.

I am not one for huge government control, but somewhere along the line, something has to honestly change.

We are all supposed to be one country.

reply to post by solomons path

So, you are taking one libertarian... Ron Paul,

Hey hey, if you have any other Libertarian or mainstream libertarian groups who's positions are different, let me know. What other libertarian in government should I be paying attention to? What Libertarian group do you believe stands apart from other conservative groups? Please, share.

]who happens to be a conservative Christian, and painting all libertarians with his personal moral views?

This here is very interesting. There are already two members here claiming that Ron Paul is not a 'real' libertarian to counter my arguments. Are people already getting cold feet about Ron Paul now?

And btw, Paul while personally opposed to abortion was still pro-choice. His argument was that it shouldn't be legislated or subsidized by the federal government. It was more a fiscal stance than a moral one.

Really? This is not what Ron Paul says.

Paul has described himself as "strongly pro-life" and said that the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade was one of the "most disastrous rulings of this century."

www.huffingtonpost.com...

“I am strongly pro-life. I think one of the most disastrous rulings of this century was Roe versus Wade. I do believe in the slippery slope theory. I believe that if people are careless and casual about life at the beginning of life, we will be careless and casual about life at the end. Abortion leads to euthanasia. I believe that.”

“If you can’t protect life then how can you protect liberty?”

www.ronpaul.com...

The abortion matter is very much a personal and social matter for Mr Paul and his view is mirrored by conservatives in general.