Americans Say No to Debt Ceiling Increase: Poll Result

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posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:00 PM
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ChaoticOrder
The simple mathematical fact is that the debt ceiling must be raised to support the debt based system they have created. It's a debt based system for a reason, it needs a continuous flow of debt to maintain liquidity and if they stop injecting more debt into the system it will collapse and thus the petrodollar and world reserve currency will collapse with it.


It is a Ponzi scheme, and it doesn't matter how hard you try, when the debt gets to a certain level it will collapse because the interest can no longer be paid.

I am really sick of people pretending debt does not matter. Let me ask this one simple question. If it doesn't matter if we pay it back why is anyone purchasing it? How stupid are they to be buying bonds that they are going to take a total loss on?

If we do default on the debt, how many years will go by before we are able to borrow money again and at what interest rate?

The market controls when our borrowing stops, not the federal government. We are very close to the limit, when the limit is met there will be a depression.




posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


Wow, one of the best posts I have read!

To extend your point. The rich boys can actually get really hurt in this debacle of the GOP tea party nuttery, if that stock market starts tumbling down. You’re talking about big money going out the window . . . and people following that money on down to the bricks.

Even KOCH has told the nut jobs to cool out

Koch Brothers Abandon Tea Party Government Shutdown Strategy



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by proximo
 



It is a Ponzi scheme, and it doesn't matter how hard you try, when the debt gets to a certain level it will collapse because the interest can no longer be paid.

Had you of taken the time to read True Money: Part II, you would find that is the core of my argument against the debt based money system. The debt bubble can only become so large before it will pop. And quite frankly what I think we are seeing right now is the start of that collapse. The debt based money system has been taken to its extreme and now they are scrambling for an easy way out, but there isn't an easy way out. I think that is the real core reason behind this whole government shutdown fiasco, the US government is totally broke and the debt based system is on the verge of collapsing.
edit on 9/10/2013 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


Like you I also think we need to get rid of the fiat currency but that is going to be a real big mess. As I mentioned Fort Knox doesn't have any more good deliverable gold and the United Nations helped shut down the new gold mine just outside Yellowstone. The USA does have gold mines (~ fifth place in production) but China, Australia, South Africa and Russia are the top gold producers (in that order) Three of the four are BRICS countries who want to start a new world reserve currency and a new world bank. link

A switch back to a gold based world currency is going to leave the USA lip deep....

What is really really interesting is that gold production has increased from under 2,300 metric tons in 2008 to 2660 metric tons in 2012

I doubt we will ever see the switch. The City of London has too big a death grip on all the various nations. It is one of the reasons according to skuttlebutt Gadhafi regime went from “a model” and an “important ally” to the next target. Remember Gadhafi's buddy Tony Blair was on J P Morgan's payroll AND working for the UN in the middle east during that time period.


....According to more than a few observers, Gadhafi’s plan to quit selling Libyan oil in U.S. dollars — demanding payment instead in gold-backed “dinars” (a single African currency made from gold) — was the real cause. The regime, sitting on massive amounts of gold, estimated at close to 150 tons, was also pushing other African and Middle Eastern governments to follow suit....


(Oh, to have been a fly on the wall)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:21 PM
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All this tax and deficit worry can be solved by raising taxes on the rich.
Most of our economic problems were started when Reagan dramatically cut taxes on the rich and then Bush did it again, after Clinton left him a budget surplus.



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:30 PM
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Willtell
All this tax and deficit worry can be solved by raising taxes on the rich.
Most of our economic problems were started when Reagan dramatically cut taxes on the rich and then Bush did it again, after Clinton left him a budget surplus.


How much extra money will that bring in ?

Would it be enough to start a selective default *I mean delay* on foreign debt ?



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:31 PM
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Every single person should be against raising the debt ceiling.

Do some people really not have a damn clue what the debt ceiling limit is?

It is the amount of debt we are legally allowed to have.

That is not a license to act like it matters, and continue blowing money we do not effing have.

The argument going on in Washington is as stupid as it gets.

They are trying to legalize spending we can't pay for, and that is after tax increases,printing money out of thin are, borrowing us in to oblivion, and printing bonds out of thin air.

People need to get it through their heads the stupidity needs to end.

As the fearless leader said raising the debt limit is a failure of the Potus, and those 'congressman',

Time we stopped giving them blank checks, and writing them when they know we don't have the means to pay for it.
edit on 9-10-2013 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:33 PM
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Willtell
All this tax and deficit worry can be solved by raising taxes on the rich.
Most of our economic problems were started when Reagan dramatically cut taxes on the rich and then Bush did it again, after Clinton left him a budget surplus.


Bullsnip

You can take every cent from the rich and still not pay the debt we owe.

Keep nicking and diming a minority to pay for the whims of the majority.

All our problems started with social engineering programs that were created that do not pay for themselves

Which is why some people make asinine comments like 'raising taxes on the rich'.

What a joke.



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by neo96
 


Uhm, I don't think the term "social engineering" means what you think it means.

en.wikipedia.org...

But you're a pretty good example of the outcome of it.
edit on 9-10-2013 by Evil_Santa because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by crimvelvet
 



A switch back to a gold based world currency is going to leave the USA lip deep....

I agree, yes it would. But it doesn't necessarily have to be a gold standard, it could be silver or some other precious metal or stone. All that matters is that it's backed by something which is hard to create and cannot be created as easily as printing some notes. And this is also why I say that the US should be willing to bite the bullet if they really want to move back to sound money instead of this debt based nonsense, because it wont be easy.


I doubt we will ever see the switch.

Unfortunately I would also have to agree with this statement. The debt based system of economics is now so deeply ingrained into the mechanics of most major world economies, that for the US to turn its back on the debt based system would undermine the validity of debt based money and therefore undermine the validity of modern central banks. You see, this is the dilemma the US faces, and it really comes down to long term thinking vs short term thinking.
edit on 9/10/2013 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:37 PM
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ChaoticOrder
reply to post by proximo
 



It is a Ponzi scheme, and it doesn't matter how hard you try, when the debt gets to a certain level it will collapse because the interest can no longer be paid.

Had you of taken the time to read True Money: Part II, you would find that is the core of my argument against the debt based money system. The debt bubble can only become so large before it will pop. And quite frankly what I think we are seeing right now is the start of that collapse. The debt based money system has been taken to its extreme and now they are scrambling for an easy way out, but there isn't an easy way out. I think that is the real core reason behind this whole government shutdown fiasco, the US government is totally broke and the debt based system is on the verge of collapsing.
edit on 9/10/2013 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)


The FED has been engaged in buying and holding specific debts.

AKA QE

Namely Treasury securities and those golden mortgage backed securities bundles.

Many 'experts' think this is the beginning of the end so to speak.

A lot of people really believe that this is the start of a takedown being sponsored by foreign interests like BRICS and others


Does anybody agree ?




posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:47 PM
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Willtell
All this tax and deficit worry can be solved by raising taxes on the rich.
Most of our economic problems were started when Reagan dramatically cut taxes on the rich and then Bush did it again, after Clinton left him a budget surplus.


BWAHAHAHAHA

If they raised taxes that brought in an additional 100 billion, then the government would see that as an oppourtunity to spend 200 billion more!
edit on 9-10-2013 by beezzer because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:47 PM
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Evil_Santa
reply to post by neo96
 


Uhm, I don't think the term "social engineering" means what you think it means.

en.wikipedia.org...

But you're a pretty good example of the outcome of it.
edit on 9-10-2013 by Evil_Santa because: (no reason given)


Is that so?

Social Security,Medicare,Medicaid,welfare,free education are social engineering programs that account for the largest federal tax revenue spending

I am a good example of it ?

Really ?

Sorry to burst that demagogic bubble by I do not depend on the state for my existence.

Cant say the same for over 100 million Americans waiting for the Zoo keepers to feed them.

Because that is what America has become.

The worlds largest zoo where the wildlife would perish if anything ever happened to the care takers(government).

What I am trying to figure out is those proponents of social engineering turn around and tell people not to feed the animals in other venues.

Rather congitive dissonant lot they are.



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by Willtell
 





All this tax and deficit worry can be solved by raising taxes on the rich.


And how in Hades do you plan to do that? The rich DO NOT EARN SALARIES! What you are doing is raising taxes on the upper middle class. That is also a problem because the upper middle class has been replaced by H1b visa holders who earn a heck of a lot less.

We have 23% REAL unemployment.

US college grads' salaries in steep decline



According to analysis from economist Michael Mandel, the average wages of US college grads have experienced sharp declines in the last decade. On the other hand, college keeps getting more expensive, and the collection of student loans has become much more aggressive. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

By my latest calculations:

* Real earnings for young male college grads are down 19% since their peak in 2000.
* Real earnings for young female college grads are down 16% since their peak in 2003.

These figures are for full-time workers, ages 25-34, with a bachelor’s degree only


This is your core TAXABLE work force and they are darn lucky to even get a job much less one that pays well! AND IT GETS WORSE!


The Uncomfortable Truth About American Wages
This finding of stagnant wages is unsettling, but also quite misleading. For one thing, this statistic includes only men who have jobs. In 1970, 94 percent of prime-age men worked, but by 2010, that number was only 81 percent. The decline in employment has been accompanied by increases in incarceration rates, higher rates of enrollment in the Social Security Disability Insurance program and more Americans struggling to find work.cause those without jobs are excluded from conventional analyses of Americans’ earnings, the statistics we most commonly see — those that illustrate a trend of wage stagnation — present an overly optimistic picture of the middle class.

When we consider all working-age men, including those who are not working, the real earnings of the median male have actually declined by 19 percent since 1970. This means that the median man in 2010 earned as much as the median man did in 1964 — nearly a half century ago. Men with less education face an even bleaker picture; earnings for the median man with a high school diploma and no further schooling fell by 41 percent from 1970 to 2010.,,,


IT THROUGH YOUR SKULLS PLEASE YOU CAN NOT TAX THOSE WHO CAN NOT FIND WORK!



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 09:18 PM
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Economic history is clear.

When the rich are taxed less, the economy suffers, why?

They use their excess money to wildly invest in get rich schemes that create economic bubbles that inevitably lead to macro economic problems. The crises in 2007-8 are examples of that.

The great depression is another example.

America had the biggest economic boom in its history after WWII when taxes on the wealthy were at their highest.

Right after Reagan lowered those taxes, and with the combination of Clinton repealing Glass Steegle, the hogs went wild… real estate bubble…then came the depression of 2007-8.

Its clear history

Clinton raised taxes on the rich we had a budget surplus.


Look at Jerry Brown out in California.

Jerry Brown's Tough-Love California Miracle

Just a few years ago everybody claimed California was a basket case. Deficits in the billions.

Old Jerry simply raised taxes on those who could afford to pay ( the rich) and lo and behold

CALIFORNIA NOW HAS A BUDGET SURPLUS, A MIRACLE.



edit on 9-10-2013 by Willtell because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 





...You see, this is the dilemma the US faces, and it really comes down to long term thinking vs short term thinking.

Oh I certainly agree with you.

There is also Mises' Solution. Mises on Money



Mises recommended no "scientific" government monetary policy whatsoever. He recommended private ownership, the State's enforcement of all contracts, and legal sanctions against private violence. As he wrote in his 1927 book, Liberalismus, "This is the function that the liberal doctrine assigns to the state: the protection of property, liberty, and peace" (Liberalism in the Classical Tradition [1985], p. 37). Providing money of stable purchasing power was not on the list.

No government agency or committee can design and operate a monetary system that would avoid the problems associated with wealth redistribution from those who gain access to new money late in the process to those who gained access early. (We just proved that in spades!)

"The Return to Sound Money,"


The first step must be a radical and unconditional abandonment of any further inflation. The total amount of dollar bills, whatever their name or legal characteristic may be, must not be increased by further issuance. No bank must be permitted to expand the total amount of its deposits subject to check or the balance of such deposits of any individual customer, be he a private citizen or the U.S. Treasury, otherwise than by receiving cash deposits in legal-tender banknotes from the public or by receiving a check payable by another domestic bank subject to the same limitations. This means a rigid 100 percent reserve for all future deposits; that is, all deposits not already in existence on the first day of the reform (p. 448).




Thats it. It is very simple STOP PRINTING MONEY! No more interest on pixie dust. Further, since there is no consideration with printed on the spot money, ALL private debts to banks; Mortgages school loans car loans, credit cards are null and void since they are not VALID per contract laws. SEE: First National Bank of Montgomery vs. Daly (1969)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 09:40 PM
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reply to post by Willtell
 





Look at Jerry Brown out in California.


Great example. Map: The mass exodus of taxpayers from New York, California and the exploded MAP


The Great California Exodus A leading U.S. demographer and 'Truman Democrat' talks about what is driving the middle class out of the Golden State.
it also attracted young, ambitious people "who had a lot of dreams, wanted to build big companies." Think Intel, Apple and Hewlett-Packard.

Now, however, the Golden State's fastest-growing entity is government and its biggest product is red tape. The first thing that comes to many American minds when you mention California isn't Hollywood or tanned girls on a beach, but Greece. Many progressives in California take that as a compliment since Greeks are ostensibly happier. But as Mr. Kotkin notes, Californians are increasingly pursuing happiness elsewhere.

Nearly four million more people have left the Golden State in the last two decades than have come from other states. This is a sharp reversal from the 1980s, when 100,000 more Americans were settling in California each year than were leaving. According to Mr. Kotkin, most of those leaving are between the ages of 5 and 14 or 34 to 45. In other words, young families....


The moral is people have feet. They move. Heck I have been talking to friends about the best place to move if I decide to give up and abandon the USA.



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 10:05 PM
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beezzer

Willtell
All this tax and deficit worry can be solved by raising taxes on the rich.
Most of our economic problems were started when Reagan dramatically cut taxes on the rich and then Bush did it again, after Clinton left him a budget surplus.


BWAHAHAHAHA

If they raised taxes that brought in an additional 100 billion, then the government would see that as an oppourtunity to spend 200 billion more!
edit on 9-10-2013 by beezzer because: (no reason given)


You couldn't be more wrong Beez!! They would use it as an opportunity to spend 300 billion more because they would inaccurately and ineptly miscalculate interest and include it into the GDP.

edit on 9-10-2013 by Helious because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 10:31 PM
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I really have to agree with Chaotic here, it's about the end of the debt based currency. Fiat money.

The whole government shutdown is about raising the debt ceiling, while saying they want to defund Obamacare. The compromise will be to nix Obamacare and raise the ceiling, with the illusion that they did something important and the government got running again.

They can't keep raising the ceiling. The bubble will pop soon. They must raise the ceiling, or it all starts to collapse, and they will all be out of jobs. It's an ugly mess right now.



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 10:43 PM
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reply to post by xuenchen
 


How many of these people understand the economic consequences that not raising the debt ceiling could have?

Of course at first it might seem easy question: raise debt or not, just spend less.

Although when looking at the circumstances, this could become a crisis, which would make the 2008 banking collapse look like nothing. Nobody knows what could happen and if people actually new how the consequences might look like, I doubt many would support not raising the debt ceiling.





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