Being christian while rejecting important OT figures?

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

hahaha.. I never thought of you as a demon!!
You are not on my target list, I do not have any list and If God consults me, i'l take your side but I don't think that I can be more merciful or just than God.

That is kind of you. I'll back you up, too...if I'm ever asked.

Say, logical7, do you celebrate Christmas as "the birth of Jesus"? Just wondering what the custom is among Muslims.

No, not really. I did celebrate it in my school and I wish my christian friends but thats about it. It would be the same as how
you celebrate Eid.

reply to post by logical7

It would be the same as how
you celebrate Eid.

Um, I don't know what that is. I've heard of the Ides of March, but keep forgetting what it's supposed to be.

The Ides of March (Latin: Idus Martii or Idus Martiae) is a day on the Roman calendar that corresponds to 15 March. It was marked by several religious observances, and became notorious as the date of the assassination of Julius Caesar in 44 BC. The death of Caesar made the Ides of March a turning point in Roman history, as one of the events that marked the transition from the historical period known as the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire.[1]

Although March (Martius) was the third month of the Julian calendar, in the oldest Roman calendar it was the first month of the year. The holidays observed by the Romans from the first through the Ides often reflect their origin as new year celebrations.

en.wikipedia.org...

Okay, googled it: Eid is the last day of Ramadan. I do know what Ramadan is.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

why does believing in hell automatically imply that one does good and avoids bad for the fear of it?

It doesn't, when one is speaking about adults. My concern is using "hell" as a tool to frighten children into submission.

teaching kids about God, heaven, hell is not wrong in itself. Its no different than telling them the consequences of crossing the road carelessly.
People abuse it and you are against that and me too but in general hell is just to teach personal responsibility for actions. People here in general tend to push the whole responsibility on God. "If God is so loving, He should not punish me" Really? And you run amok!!! The free will we got makes us also bear the consequences of our actions.

Even Jesus pbuh talked about hell, he said its better to cut a hand and throw it than let the whole body burn in hell. He also talked about storing ones treasues in heaven.

Tell me how you ignore his teachings that do not fit with buddhist ideas. Do you say that he did not say it or justify that he did not mean it.

logical7

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

why does believing in hell automatically imply that one does good and avoids bad for the fear of it?

It doesn't, when one is speaking about adults. My concern is using "hell" as a tool to frighten children into submission.

teaching kids about God, heaven, hell is not wrong in itself. Its no different than telling them the consequences of crossing the road carelessly.
People abuse it and you are against that and me too but in general hell is just to teach personal responsibility for actions. People here in general tend to push the whole responsibility on God. "If God is so loving, He should not punish me" Really? And you run amok!!! The free will we got makes us also bear the consequences of our actions.

Even Jesus pbuh talked about hell, he said its better to cut a hand and throw it than let the whole body burn in hell. He also talked about storing ones treasues in heaven.

Tell me how you ignore his teachings that do not fit with buddhist ideas. Do you say that he did not say it or justify that he did not mean it.

You are very,very, very incorrect.Teaching about heaven and hell is a blasphemous lie.The biggest lie there is...is the eternal punishment of hell sanctioned tacitly by the creator God.Yahoshua never taught it and everything he said and did was just the opposite.There are a multitude of scriptures that clearly state Yahoshua came to (and did) save(deliver) ALL of mankind from death.There are 4 words translated hell.

Sheol(Hebrew)=the grave,the realm of death,the realm of imperception
Hades(Greek)=the grave,the realm of death,the realm of imperception
Gehenna=One place pagans sacrificed to the god Baal and was also the burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem
Tartarus=Greek mythology called the pit.(which is where most hell theology comes from through Dante...a blatant work of fiction)

Peter wrote of Tartarus once..and it was a metaphor since Tartarus is a myth.None of he others apostle writings say anything about hell.Yahoshua spoke of Hades and Gehenna and NEVER as the eternal punishment.Those doctrines are extrapolations of religion.He is the savor of ALL mankind it makes no sense.Hell has zero justice in it.It is all concocted in the perverted carnal religious mind.

Yahoshua said believing in it was blasphemy of the Holy spirit and would not be forgiven in this age nor the one to come.There are billions that have no idea what they are saying that teaching (or believing) the eternal punishment of hell is "okay".Is is an indictment and blight on the creator Gods character and making the creator God the worst monster in existence while completely denying and mocking who Yahoshua is.

Fortunately the creator God is just.All who believe that heinous doctrine will be forgiven (which means freed from bondage)...at a very steep price.The belief in the eternal punishment of hell colors every thought and action.It is not benign in the least.Many are suffering from their "own" judgement clearly stated in Matthew 7:1 by Yahoshua.

reply to post by Rex282


Do you believe that Jesus pbuh died for you? If yes then to save from what? Just death that would make you cease existing?

When he was talking about heaven and hell, it was just metaphorical?

Blasphemy is to set up false gods.

So according to you, the sinners were just made to trouble the good people who believed in Yeshua and then cease to exist without any consequences?
The Loving God did this? The Just God planned it this way?

reply to post by logical7

@rex282....''the biggest lie there is...is the eternal punishment of hell sanctioned tacitly by the creator God.Yahoshua never taught it and everything he said and did was just the opposite.There are a multitude of scriptures that clearly state Yahoshua came to (and did) save(deliver) '' --- read the chapter on the sheep and goat judjement. Jesus clearly taught of hell. The goats were literally told to go to hell.

logical7

Do you believe that Jesus pbuh died for you?

Yahoshua IS saving/delivering ALL of mankind.Salvation is not an event it's an infinite process.It is in essence growth.

logical7
Just death that would make you cease existing?

Nothing can "cease" to exist.It only changes form.
.Matter can't be annihilated.

logical7
If yes then to save from what?

Mankind has not even been born yet.All of mankind is in the "womb" of the physical realm.Yahoshua clearly stated this in ...you must be born anew to enter the Kingdom Of God realm.It isn't reincarnation.Mankind is taking on a new form in the Kingdom of God realm.The 1st Adam(mankind) was conceived of the physical seed(spermatozoon).The 2nd Adam is conceived by the Seed of God .... Yahoshua

logical7
When he was talking about heaven and hell, it was just metaphorical?

I didn't say they were metaphors.Yahoshua spoke "of" them metaphorically because they are of another realm.
First it is "the heavens".There is no "place somewhere out there" that is heaven. Mankind's new birth is "the heavens" mankind will be the temple of God.That is where the creator God will live life through.Currently mankind lives in"their heavens"....the religious carnal mind in the physical realm.

As stated before hell is translated from 4 words sheol,hades,Gehenna and Tartarus.The religious doctrine "hell" does not exist firstly because there is no "place" that is hell.Hades and sheol mean the realm of the dead.The womb of the physical realm is the valley of the shadow of death.Everything must pass through it to enter into the Kingdom of God realm.

logical7
So according to you, the sinners were just made to trouble the good people who believed in Yeshua and then cease to exist without any consequences?The Loving God did this? The Just God planned it this way?

I didn't say that.I did say ALL of mankind are born in the physical realm imperfect (sinners) .What you stated is twisted religious dogma that makes zero sense.Yahoshua is the savor/deliverer of ALL mankind. Literally ALL of mankind will be "delivered"(through birth) into the Kingdom of God.Some in the next age.. some in the one after that or after that etc etc..it's infinite.

sk0rpi0n
@rex282....''the biggest lie there is...is the eternal punishment of hell sanctioned tacitly by the creator God.Yahoshua never taught it and everything he said and did was just the opposite.There are a multitude of scriptures that clearly state Yahoshua came to (and did) save(deliver) '' --- read the chapter on the sheep and goat judgment. Jesus clearly taught of hell. The goats were literally told to go to hell.

I've read ALL the chapters thoroughly and know them quite well.I know what Yahoshua said and he never taught a doctrine of the punishment of hell.They are religious extrapolation made into the doctrines of men.For example the verse you pointed out says nothing of "hell".It says the everlasting(translated from aion which means age) fire.Which is symbolic of the consuming "fire" of the creator God.It is not literally. Fire cleanses impurities which is the context of this "parable".

Yahoshua clearly stated in the preamble to the explanation of the parable of the soils and seed that he ONLY spoke in parables so those that were deaf and blind would remain deaf and blind.He only explained the parables to the disciples..and they still didn't''t understand them and wouldn't until later over periods of time.

The bottom line is the parables were for the disciples.They are the few are chosen everyone else are the many are called.They are the first(first fruits) to know the creator God.The first fruits are the first crops that mature(born into the Kingdom of God).They are the product of the 1st fruit...the seed..."the living word" of the creator God...Yahoshua.

The sheep are the disciples the goats are the many are called.The few are chosen sheep were the only ones that "knew" the creator God.They are the ones that knew who/what Yahoshua was.They are the "seeds" from the first fruits of the first fruits tree.Everything grows from a seed.That is the crux of the parable of the seed and soils.

Everything is a process of growth through seeds.Man desires formulas and doctrines to "believe" God(religion) but never will because the creator God can only be "known" by revelation.The "books" will do no one any good to "know" the creator God .It is NOT an instruction manual on how to know God.It is just a testimony(witness) of the creator Gods existence(Yahoshua).It may as well be written in Martian for all the twisting of it by the religious carnal mind of mans religion.

@Rex282...

The verse you pointed out says nothing of "hell".It says the everlasting(translated from aion which means age) fire.Which is symbolic of the consuming "fire" of the creator God.It is not literally. Fire cleanses impurities which is the context of this "parable".

That was no parable, it was an important teaching on the final Judgement. Also Verse 46 in the chapter says the goats go to 'Eternal punishment'so no, it wasn't a cleansing fire, rather the fire of eternal punishment..i.e- hell. Jesus also says to the goats that they were under 'Gods curse', and says the eternal fire was also prepared for the devil and his 'angels'.

For those of you not well versed in it...

In Occult religions the Loving god is sometimes called

"The Good god"

For those who deserve good things and who are good people.

Those well versed in the Good god know his name as the god of this world...his name is Lucifer and these people often look to the east for their guidance and light.

There is a pattern of operation here for those able to detect it and know of how it works.

It is also found in the Olde and New Testaments.

Thanks,
Orangetom

sk0rpi0n
@Rex282...

The verse you pointed out says nothing of "hell".It says the everlasting(translated from aion which means age) fire.Which is symbolic of the consuming "fire" of the creator God.It is not literally. Fire cleanses impurities which is the context of this "parable".

That was no parable, it was an important teaching on the final Judgement. Also Verse 46 in the chapter says the goats go to 'Eternal punishment'so no, it wasn't a cleansing fire, rather the fire of eternal punishment..i.e- hell. Jesus also says to the goats that they were under 'Gods curse', and says the eternal fire was also prepared for the devil and his 'angels'.

As I stated everlasting or eternal is aion and doesn't mean infinite time it means an age or age lasting.Punishment is translated a few ways, the most common is kolasis which means correction.Punishment without correction is unjust.Another word translated as punishment is the noun basanos and the verb basanizō which means to test by a touchstone.A touchstone is used to test the quality of gold or silver.

The concept of God "punishing" without correction is blasphemous.These words have been deliberately twisted to fit a religious agenda.The are very easily discovered even in Strongs bible concordance which does it's best to twist them also.

This is a parable. Yahoshua clearly stated everything he taught was in parable.He just expounded a few parables before and this was the culmination.The throne is not literal.The sheeps and goats are not literal.When he says you fed me and clothed me and gave me drink he doesn't mean literally those acts to him.

Rex282

sk0rpi0n
@Rex282...

The verse you pointed out says nothing of "hell".It says the everlasting(translated from aion which means age) fire.Which is symbolic of the consuming "fire" of the creator God.It is not literally. Fire cleanses impurities which is the context of this "parable".

That was no parable, it was an important teaching on the final Judgement. Also Verse 46 in the chapter says the goats go to 'Eternal punishment'so no, it wasn't a cleansing fire, rather the fire of eternal punishment..i.e- hell. Jesus also says to the goats that they were under 'Gods curse', and says the eternal fire was also prepared for the devil and his 'angels'.

As I stated everlasting or eternal is aion and doesn't mean infinite time it means an age or age lasting.Punishment is translated a few ways, the most common is kolasis which means correction.Punishment without correction is unjust.Another word translated as punishment is the noun basanos and the verb basanizō which means to test by a touchstone.A touchstone is used to test the quality of gold or silver.

The concept of God "punishing" without correction is blasphemous.These words have been deliberately twisted to fit a religious agenda.The are very easily discovered even in Strongs bible concordance which does it's best to twist them also.

This is a parable. Yahoshua clearly stated everything he taught was in parable.He just expounded a few parables before and this was the culmination.The throne is not literal.The sheeps and goats are not literal.When he says you fed me and clothed me and gave me drink he doesn't mean literally those acts to him.

Awesome response.

Sk0rpi0n, trying to paint the "Sheep and Goats" parable as evidence for a literal hell is to miss the point of the parable entirely. It was a pronouncement of a coming national judgment on Israel, not some far future place of eternal torment. As Rex282 has correctly pointed out, four different words were translated into one catchall word, "hell", even though the four words have different meanings in their original context.

reply to post by Rex282

Punishment is translated a few ways, the most common is kolasis which means correction

The word used in the passage is kolasis which is derived from kolazó.
Both mean "punishment" or "chastisement".

The concept of a fiery place of punishment is well established in other places in the Bible. So, splitting hairs over translations and meanings is futile.

This is a parable. Yahoshua clearly stated everything he taught was in parable.He just expounded a few parables before and this was the culmination.The throne is not literal.The sheeps and goats are not literal.When he says you fed me and clothed me and gave me drink he doesn't mean literally those acts to him.

It was a teaching on judgement.
Even if you say its a parable, it still teaches that some will enter "eternal punishment".
And of course I know there are symbols used in that passage. I find it strange that you felt the need to point that out to me.

reply to post by Thejaybird

It was a pronouncement of a coming national judgment on Israel, not some far future place of eternal torment.

Well, thats a rather strange way to interpret a chapter that begins with "All the nations will be gathered before him".

Does the phrase "all the nations" refer to Israel? I think not.

The chapter is rather clear...

"eternal fire", "fire prepared for the devil", "eternal punishment"...

reply to post by Rex282


Thank GOD someone else knows what they are talking about the dogma of old can drift away into the eather where it belongs.

My dad was a Methodist Minister for years. When he obtained his PHD he had to learn all denominations and a few languages, one being Hebrew.

He said the first day of class his Professor told them all to remain seated when he told them the "truth" about hell and for the ones who couldn't remain seated when he delivered this message was free to leave but to never come back. My dad said he sat with excitement.

His professor told them that everything they knew or thought they knew about hell was simply wrong. Hell was a place they burned trash. It was a real pit back in the days of old. It was used as a metaphor by Jesus. There was not a real eternal fire awaiting souls in the afterlife.

Sadly there was a woman who had to be escorted out by security as she could not handle the truth.

What we have been taught is taught to us so we may fear and "be good".

We should be "good" because it is the right thing to do. Intent is key, I believe.

Are you being "good" because you fear?

Are you being "good" because you love?

Which do you feed and serve?

reply to post by Rex282

The 1st Adam(mankind) was conceived of the physical seed(spermatozoon).The 2nd Adam is conceived by the Seed of God .... Yahoshua

From whose spermatazoa was adam concieved? LOL

Your christianised philosophy does not stand if logic is used. Adam is more of a spiritual son/seed of God as he was neither concieved by a sperm nor egg. Jesus pbuh on the other hand had a mother(egg)

You are using dual meanings of words like delivered, seed... To make your philosophy appear mystical but tell me did Jesus pbuh talk in english? Or ever used these words or explanations?

This will only appeal to a christianised mind who already wants to believe any justification that will validate its beliefs.

On topic, so you believe that Adam pbuh was real? Your answer will affect the validity of your philosophy!!!

reply to post by logical7


I know you weren't asking me.. but I was nosy and wanted to answer from my pov.

Jesus "probably" spoke Phoenician/Aramaic.

Translation is where IF it is going to be lost, it was.

Hell is obviously an english word that has been translated over and over, hence the truer meaning is lost.

I think its quite amusing that with all the studies of NDE people who believe in Hell ( Christians) are the ones "experiencing" it while the majority of atheists do not. Things that make ya go.. Hmmmmmmm

If there is such a thing I would imagine it's for purification of the soul and not an eternal state. That just seems silly to me in the grand scheme of things. I would hope God is more loving than I and I assume he/she/it is.

reply to post by MamaJ


I think its not about God being loving. God is Extremely Merciful. Its about limiting God to just Loving? What about Justice? What about free will? If the choice is God and heaven or reject God and hell then will God over-ride a person's own choice and put him/her in heaven? If everyone goes to one place then we don't have a choice and so it does not matter if we are good or bad. At the most karma takes care about the good and bad behavior but no choice to deny heaven and God. Lets see how our atheist friends like this..

logical7
reply to post by MamaJ

 

I think its not about God being loving. God is Extremely Merciful. Its about limiting God to just Loving? What about Justice? What about free will? If the choice is God and heaven or reject God and hell then will God over-ride a person's own choice and put him/her in heaven? If everyone goes to one place then we don't have a choice and so it does not matter if we are good or bad. At the most karma takes care about the good and bad behavior but no choice to deny heaven and God. Lets see how our atheist friends like this..

Karma is the judge and karma plays out from lifetime to lifetime. For this reason is why Jesus can be said to be the first and last Adam. This is why Jesus can be attributed to other incarnations in between Adam and Christ. We literally reap what we sow and so did Jesus soul as the first Adam.

I don't think there is just a "heaven and hell".

I happen to think of it like a Pyramid. There are lower planes of experience and or existence and higher ones the closer you are to the mind of God.. or God.

As above so below teaches us there is nothing lost. Everything and everyone is recycled. Energy transforms but doe not cease to exist.

If we take into account we incarnate for our Karma then not each life will be about accepting Jesus Christ into our hearts if ever at all be a requirement from Jesus. It's not about religion or the dogma that comes with it. Following Christ is a way of life. It is not and should never be bound by a religion. Christ ministered to all and never under a specific religion did he minister.

There is no limitation or bondage with loving God and your neighbor as yourself.