Police Officers One Third More Likely to Murder Than Concealed Carry Permit Holders

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posted on Oct, 8 2013 @ 05:58 PM
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With all of the police violence that we are seeing these days it seems like a re-evaluation of the data concerning murders committed by police is in order and concealed carry weapon holders are the obvious group to use for direct comparison.

Perhaps not surprisingly we find that (with the data available from Florida which has comparable numbers of both), while the numbers are exceedingly small to begin with, you are considerably safer with a citizen with a concealed carry weapon than a law enforcement officer.




Police Officers One Third More Likely to Murder Than Concealed Carry Permit Holders




In 1994, when Arizona started its shall issue concealed carry weapon (CCW) program, there was considerable interest in how many and what types of homicides would be related to the new law.



It appears that a person is three times safer with a concealed carry permit holder than they are with a police officer.

Attempting to determine how the homicide rate of people with CCW permits compares to that of police officers is not an easy task. There are several sources that show that people with CCW permits are far more law abiding than the general population.

One would like to believe that the same is true for police officers, but data is much harder to obtain for them. Agencies that employ sworn officers do not like to tarnish their name with the misdeeds of officers, and unlike a few states that track crimes committed by CCW permit holders, I do not know of any government database of crimes committed by peace officers.



Florida was chosen to represent CCW permit holders, because accurate numbers of permits were obtainable from the Florida Department of Agriculture. Florida has the highest total of CCW permits of all the states, and the number of resident concealed carry permits in Florida is reasonably close to the number of sworn state and local peace officers in the United States.

The Violence Policy Center (VPC) says that Florida tops the nation in killings by people with concealed carry permits. VPC has complete years in their data base for 2008 – 2011 for Florida. There are 27 total killings that are unjustified homicides by CCW permit holders, and 14 of those are domestic homicides. The rate of domestic homicides per 100,000 per year is .583 per 100,000 for CCW holders.






For the data that we have, police appear to be three times as likely to commit murder as a concealed carry permit holder.

If we include all unjustified homicides (suicides were not included) found in Florida by the VPC for CCW holders for the entire four years, the rate is only 27/2,400,713 or  1.125 per 100,000 population per year. This is comparable with the homicide rates in developed western European countries. It is 61% of the rate for police officers for domestic homicides alone.



There are no complete and definitive sources of data that will give us an accurate ratio of unjustified homicides committed by police compared to CCW holders.  The numbers are very small and no one keeps a national record of them.

However, the numbers found for domestic homicide cases, which are some of the easiest solved and most highly publicised cases, offer strong evidence that CCW permit holders are less likely to commit unjustified homicide than police officers, as little as one third as much.


edit on 8-10-2013 by greencmp because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 8 2013 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by greencmp
 


Could it be that your average CCP holder doesn't walk into the gun store and ask for targets that have women and children on them?????

Just a guess, but being that Homeland Security ordered a bunch of these targets, is it a wonder???

Wake the hell up folks!




posted on Oct, 8 2013 @ 06:40 PM
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seeker1963
reply to post by greencmp
 


Could it be that your average CCP holder doesn't walk into the gun store and ask for targets that have women and children on them?????

Just a guess, but being that Homeland Security ordered a bunch of these targets, is it a wonder???

Wake the hell up folks!


Yes, this is atrocious and very real. Federal agents are also being taught that the founding fathers were terrorists and that anyone who believes in the constitution is a threat.
edit on 8-10-2013 by greencmp because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 8 2013 @ 06:56 PM
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I think a big part of the problem has been summed up by some of the cops which have been on the 'COPS' TV show but who had also been cops in England. I recall two and both had said the culture of pointing guns at everyone as standard operating procedure, almost automatically, was a real shock and something to get used to.

Well, I think they need to get UN-used to it. Overkill, accidental shootings and pure 'oops' from things like mistaken addresses or not checking things out are getting so bad, it does seem to suggest a need for a fundamental change in policing attitude overall.

The Us/Them mentality on both sides of that 'blue line' has just gone to absurd levels, IMO.



posted on Oct, 8 2013 @ 07:13 PM
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Not surprising. Most CCW holders carry for self protection, a just in case mentality. Police carry because they need to overpower anyone the confront. Additionally most seem to have nothing but abruptness or contempt for "civilians."

I would be very interested to see another set of criteria applied to this. How many cops vs CCW holders are currently taking steroids.



posted on Oct, 8 2013 @ 07:17 PM
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May | add something? Not because |'m a medically retired cop and want to "stick up for the blue line" because |'m the first to call a shovel a spade, with that being typed. Could these numbers reflect that a majority of cops carry their weapon ALL the time? (| never did, |'d play golf w/guys that were strapped to the gills) add this to a cop is more likely to shoot first and let the chips fall where they may (read: "better judged by 12 than carried by 6") Your "everyday" Gun Nu... Uh, er... "Gun Enthusiast" isn't usually around violence at their work stations and will also NOT rely on 100's of hours of training, like a packing cop will/would do... The cop's job is to go home at night, that "Protect & Serve" just looks nice on the cars. A majority of those involved in law enforcement are in "it" for the wrong reasons and then 'bitterness' sets in and then they "snap"



posted on Oct, 8 2013 @ 07:34 PM
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LewisStulePhD


May | add something? Not because |'m a medically retired cop and want to "stick up for the blue line" because |'m the first to call a shovel a spade, with that being typed. Could these numbers reflect that a majority of cops carry their weapon ALL the time? (| never did, |'d play golf w/guys that were strapped to the gills) add this to a cop is more likely to shoot first and let the chips fall where they may (read: "better judged by 12 than carried by 6") Your "everyday" Gun Nu... Uh, er... "Gun Enthusiast" isn't usually around violence at their work stations and will also NOT rely on 100's of hours of training, like a packing cop will/would do... The cop's job is to go home at night, that "Protect & Serve" just looks nice on the cars. A majority of those involved in law enforcement are in "it" for the wrong reasons and then 'bitterness' sets in and then they "snap"



posted on Oct, 8 2013 @ 08:23 PM
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Interesting about the CHL verses the Cop and homicide. A few years ago I was in Houston and one of the older Police officers wanted to see a 45 I had because he was thinking about buying a 1911 for himself. There were three cops standing around my car when I brought the 45 out. One of the younger cops who I had just met moments before actually backed up a couple steps and put his hand on his side arm.. I am, shortish hair, new car, no tattoos, clean shaven... I just acted like I did not notice him.

I dropped the mag and racked the slide clearing the round that was chambered and handed the pistol to the older cop who wanted to see it. The slide on that 45 is the smoothest action of any 1911 I have ever handled and the cop was so impressed he wanted to buy mine... No thank you not for sale..
The only reason I tell this story is at the time not 3 minutes before everything was all smiles and hand shakes.

When the weapon appeared things changed dramatically. If I would have been someone with evil in my mind he would have been the first one I would have dropped because he was the most prepared.
Come to find out the young cop was new to the force, married with two kids and fresh out of the academy.

Over the years I have gotten to know him and have sold two rifles to him a Russian SKS and an AR in 223/5.56. He is not the same young spring loaded fresh out of the academy trigger happy paranoid young man he was before and is actually fun to be around. But that day when we first met and after all the brain washing err training he had received he was just a young man who "see pedestrian with gun, gun bad, get ready on the firing line". Also I am/was a better shot than him with pistol or rifle.... Which makes me feel good...small victories can be pleasing sometimes.



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 01:37 AM
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reply to post by greencmp
 


Good thread . . . I've have a couple comments regarding your OP

First, I see your article uses statistics from the VPC. You should know (or maybe you do) the VPC is a non-profit that is totally funded by the anti-gun lobby. It is the source of all of their statistics and has been proven to "fudge" their findings to support the anti-2nd agenda. Their "research" is bought and paid for, so to speak. I know that you didn't write the article, but I wouldn't trust their data . . . better to go right to the source and use the FBI crime statistics website. VPC will always skew the data to make gun owners out to be "unsafe".

Second, as a "civilian", I've taken numerous firearms courses alongside LEOs, from training centers like Gunsite in Paulden, AZ to my local range. I try to take at least three a year, as you just don't get the opportunity to practice from draw, from cover, or in movement by just going to the range. In every instance, the civilians have shown to be better marksmen and safer with their weapons. LEOs constantly fail to clear their targets and are consistently lectured on covering others (and themselves) with their firearms. Every course I've taken reserves the last day for "competitions" and these are almost exclusively won by "civilians".

I think this mainly has to do with their familiarity with handling their weapon, as familiarity breeds mental laziness. They simply do not think/concentrate the way they should when handling their weapon. Think of it like driving a car . . . you don't have to mentally go through each step and focus the way you did when you were a novice. Now, as civilians safety is beaten into your head when learning and becomes 2nd nature. It doesn't seem to be the case for LEOs . . . at least not the way they practice. I think that this is also demonstrated by the fact that the majority of accidental discharges and shootings, in this nation, are at the hands of off-duty LEOs.

That's not to say that there aren't very proficient LEOs out there . . . I've encountered many. In fact, one of my favorite range masters, at Gunsite, is ex-military and LEO and was even the head instructor for Arizona DPS. That said, even he would give the LEOs and ex-military a lot of ish for never besting or being as teachable as the civilians (especially the civilian women).

edit on 10/9/13 by solomons path because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 02:56 AM
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Interesting thread. Flagged for the thoughtful comments. I'm gonna go back and re-read these numerous times I'm sure, but I want to put out a couple of thoughts before my mind gets locked onto any of the existing replies.

First: Murder - that's a provocative word to find in the title. I'm sure it drew a lot of attention and no one seems to have given it focus.

Second: The contrast of Police Officers to the civilian population at large. Civilians aren't supposed to go around shooting people and cops are expected to. Is that the way I'm supposed to react? To me, that would seem to be the end of my input. I've got four hours and this may be edited repeatedly.

ETA:

seeker1963's response - Wow! Could be something to that … but then again, who IS it that the cops are expected to shoot? Bad guys aren't just the ones you see wearing criminal attire. Those "targets" force your focus on to the threat if you look at 'em for a minute or two … and I did.

Wrabbit, as usual, hit one of the nails right on the head.

Now when I carried on-duty, if you saw me draw my weapon, you should expect to be struck by a round not less than a second later. I was 'taught' not to pull that thing out of its holster unless you meant to use it. I think this same mentality is drilled into the heads of CCW holders who take the time to get any type of training. It's a lack of "will" that seems to keep more people from getting killed every day.

Cops, OTOH, are wearing their game face all day, every day. They're trained to shoot straight. And, murder only happens when there's a dead body on the ground … not some guy flopping around like a fish. A lot of cops are seemingly accustomed to pointing things at their victims. For that reason I despise tasers. If the taser is not handy enough, the cops are pointing their guns, and so starts the recipe for disaster. Admittedly, we're not going to resolve this on ATS, and I'm going to stop right here.

The OP then makes the observation that law enforcement has evolved over time. I'd have to agree, but not in a disparaging way. There's a lot more violence out there today. Remember when we were kids, and the most dire warning from our parents was, "Don't take rides from strangers."??

I also like his observation that CCW holders carry all the time. I'm a CCW holder now, and when I'm Stateside I carry all the time. I don't own a gun safe, because my guns would NEVER be in there. This is way OT, but I'll U2U with anyone who wants to know more, or why.

Last thoughts are specific to LEO training as opposed to range time. They're different things. LEOs wind up on private ranges because they've adopted "The Way Of The Gun" and that has very little to do with training as a duty. From what I've observed, nine-to-five cops are VERY POORLY trained and a staggering percentage aren't smart enough to understand anything they've been taught. Another ingredient in the recipe for disaster.

OBTW … you won't see anyone in my family dialing 911.

greencmp: Best thread I've stumbled across today. -Cheers
edit on 9102013 by Snarl because: ETA



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:28 AM
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solomons path
reply to post by greencmp
 


Good thread . . . I've have a couple comments regarding your OP

First, I see your article uses statistics from the VPC. You should know (or maybe you do) the VPC is a non-profit that is totally funded by the anti-gun lobby. It is the source of all of their statistics and has been proven to "fudge" their findings to support the anti-2nd agenda. Their "research" is bought and paid for, so to speak. I know that you didn't write the article, but I wouldn't trust their data . . . better to go right to the source and use the FBI crime statistics website. VPC will always skew the data to make gun owners out to be "unsafe".

Second, as a "civilian", I've taken numerous firearms courses alongside LEOs, from training centers like Gunsite in Paulden, AZ to my local range. I try to take at least three a year, as you just don't get the opportunity to practice from draw, from cover, or in movement by just going to the range. In every instance, the civilians have shown to be better marksmen and safer with their weapons. LEOs constantly fail to clear their targets and are consistently lectured on covering others (and themselves) with their firearms. Every course I've taken reserves the last day for "competitions" and these are almost exclusively won by "civilians".

I think this mainly has to do with their familiarity with handling their weapon, as familiarity breeds mental laziness. They simply do not think/concentrate the way they should when handling their weapon. Think of it like driving a car . . . you don't have to mentally go through each step and focus the way you did when you were a novice. Now, as civilians safety is beaten into your head when learning and becomes 2nd nature. It doesn't seem to be the case for LEOs . . . at least not the way they practice. I think that this is also demonstrated by the fact that the majority of accidental discharges and shootings, in this nation, are at the hands of off-duty LEOs.

That's not to say that there aren't very proficient LEOs out there . . . I've encountered many. In fact, one of my favorite range masters, at Gunsite, is ex-military and LEO and was even the head instructor for Arizona DPS. That said, even he would give the LEOs and ex-military a lot of ish for never besting or being as teachable as the civilians (especially the civilian women).

edit on 10/9/13 by solomons path because: (no reason given)

The data sets were chosen specifically because of the source to deter the most common statistical dismissals. Additionally, Florida has the most comparable numbers of police vs CCW holders as well as the highest numbers of 'unjustified' homicides. The actual conclusions from the data are also tempered by underestimates preferring the anti-gun position wherever possible.

Yet, with all that lowballing, the results still stand in direct contradiction to every disarmament argument we hear.

These factors may explain the lack of trolling on this thread that I would otherwise have expected.
edit on 9-10-2013 by greencmp because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:36 AM
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As a body people in law enforcement are several times more likely to self-medicate, be domestic abusers, suffer depression, anxiety and PTSD, etc...

If there is one population that should not be carrying guns it's police.

Note the sources are from their own mouths: The Rapist and the Cop and RPI Psych Cource evaluates police personality profiles

The problem has been traced and studied at least since the 70's and is only getting worse.

It's just matter of course that they would murder more than non-cops.

Why this isnt widely accepted fact (because it is fact) just baffles me. Like how so many still deny quotas exist despite the absolute proof. Like flat-Earthers or something.
edit on 9-10-2013 by thisguyrighthere because: (no reason given)
edit on 9-10-2013 by thisguyrighthere because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 08:46 AM
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I think that one thing has been over-looked. Maybe I missed it. But I would think that a LEO who commits homicide does so because he/she thinks they can get away with it. Just like any other murderer.

"I'm a Cop, I know how these investigations go, so I can cover my tracks."

Fortunately, there are LEO's who look for these types. As in every segment of society, you have the good, the bad and the ugly.



posted on Oct, 9 2013 @ 09:13 AM
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greencmp


There is something wrong with this picture..



www.usconstitution.net...
Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


I can't place my finger on it... But i sure there is something wrong there......
edit on 10/9/2013 by ThichHeaded because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2013 @ 12:08 PM
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TDawgRex
I think that one thing has been over-looked. Maybe I missed it. But I would think that a LEO who commits homicide does so because he/she thinks they can get away with it. Just like any other murderer.

"I'm a Cop, I know how these investigations go, so I can cover my tracks."

Fortunately, there are LEO's who look for these types. As in every segment of society, you have the good, the bad and the ugly.

True, this supports my assertion that we really don't need most police and they introduce an unnecessary risk to public safety. There are many reasons for major cuts to law enforcement but, this is one of the primary ones.

While it must take a back seat to the main concern which is the authoritarian police state, it seems to be easier for most people to understand and accept.



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