Baby P's Mother To Be Released From Prison. SICK.

A lot of the anger directed at such individuals is unfair because it's frustration at the bizarrely lenient sentences dished out by the British judiciary.

If she'd got 30 years - not paroled after 15, but 30 inside - there wouldn't be nearly as much hatred out there.

Also I imagine she would be safer and there'd be no need for the ridiculous step of giving her a new identity (including plastic surgery).

Sentencing is not about justice but pragmatism.

It's cheaper to give someone like this a couple of years stir and released with a new ID than to give them a sentence commensurate with their crime. Cheaper, not fairer.

The Moors Murderers and the Yorkshire Ripper are still doing time, and will continue to do so for as long as they take a breath, only because the government know they would be quickly identified and murdered on their release.

But we don't give full life tariffs any more except for extremely dangerous criminals - and I'm pretty sure Ian Brady and Peter Sutcliffe are no longer dangerous.

Sooo....what the heck are they still doing behind bars?

It's pragmatism, not justice.

reply to post by CJCrawley


The anger directed towards such persons is not because of their unduly lenient sentences, but entirely because they are sick #s who have forfeited any right to life on this earth by causing deliberate harm to an innocent.

reply to post by Painterz

I can't really blame the authorities for not protecting the kid. The sad truth is there are thousands, probably tens of thousands of children who are officially 'at risk', and we simply don't have the resources in social work departments to effectively monitor these children and protect them properly.

I have to disagree with you, while i think the ultimate blame lies with the mother, her boyfriend, and the boyfriends brother to say that the system is not also at fault i cannot accept.

This was a institutional failure of the system of social care as a whole it was not any one social workers fault but the fault of the system. This child was visited 60 times in his short life by various agencies. Its interesting that last year i sat in a lecture given by one of the people who investigated this case who said that the problem was as they saw it was that professionals such as social workers, nurse, doctors and police officers had a attitude that it was someone else job to report these things and poor communication between agencies. If one good thing has came out of what happened to baby P they said it is that it highlighted these weaknesses so that the system can make the amendments required, its just such a shame that a child had to suffer so much for them to realize the flaws in the system.

You also say that thousands more social workers are required and again, while i agree its not a excuse. In the Nursing profession we have the same problem we are chronically understaffed but thats not a excuse to get you off with not noticing that a patient has rapidly deteriorated. Its the same with social workers, at the end of the day you are a professional educated individual who is accountable to the public and part of that means that one of these social workers (or indeed other professionals) should have had this child put into care.

HE was visited 60 TIMES for Christ's sake, 60 times!

so no the pressures of the social care service are not a excuse, as a institution, we failed that child and as professionals who are to care for the venerable we have to ask how it happened. Raising council tax and employing thousands more social workers is not the answer, the answer is professional accountability and individuals speaking out and taking action where they have a cause for concern.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


There is no evil. What they did, you are fully capable of. Don't fool yourself, and don't demonize them....they only reflect the worst of all our human nature.

If we could quit believing in superstitious "evil", we might be able to acknowledge the problem and make moves towards amending. As it stands, we are left believing it was "evil" that did this.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Let me ask you: why do you want "the system" to fix this? Because you pay your taxes, and you expect that they will just take care of it?

How about the failure of neighbors? You think I wouldn't stomp a mudhole in the ass of anyone abusing their children next door to me?

"Authority" is who people cede responsibility for things they, themselves, should own.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


By "System" I mean the collective of agencies that make up our social care.

That the main ones that come to mind here are social work, the NHS, police. CPS although it would also cover schools had the child be old enough. Basically any organization that was in a position to save Baby P.

yes i suppose you could also blame others like neighbors but that would require proof that they knew somehow.

and I am sorry but i disagree with you over evil but that is kind of besides the point also I am not capable of what they done, mentally I would not be able to do it.

The point here really is the sorry state of the UK justice system that this horrible woman is not rotting in a prison somewhere.

OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

By "System" I mean the collective of agencies that make up our social care.

That the main ones that come to mind here are social work, the NHS, police. CPS although it would also cover schools had the child be old enough. Basically any organization that was in a position to save Baby P.

yes i suppose you could also blame others like neighbors but that would require proof that they knew somehow.

and I am sorry but i disagree with you over evil but that is kind of besides the point also I am not capable of what they done, mentally I would not be able to do it.

The point here really is the sorry state of the UK justice system that this horrible woman is not rotting in a prison somewhere.

You don't want to BELIEVE you could do that. When my grandfather became ill, we were all shocked by the violent behavior that emerged. Brain tumors can do that kind of thing.

I am sure that a post-partem mother would think she is incapable of murdering her child....but the grisly truth is, it happens.

You (and everyone else) is capable of unspeakable evil. Fortunately, circumstances work out that do not precipitate that evil...but the potential is there for everyone.

FWIW, i get what your saying about police and NIH....I am not sure you understood what I was saying. A community...those things don't happen in a community. Is there a sense of community there? The neighborhood I raised my kids in, all the kids ran around everywhere. It would be readily apparent were someone being abused at home. The neighborhood kids had a bad habit of just walking into their friends houses...they literally were all up in our biz

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I think if we put aside the "evil" debate for a moment and address what you are saying about "community" as part of the system.

Essentially if i am correct you are saying that we should not have just relied on social work and police to have done something but a neighbor or other relative should have spoke up

I totally agree with you, that is exactly what should have happened and it is very probable it did happen. I cannot go into details but i have had a fair bit of relations regarding child protection and venerable adult protection and the sad truth is that even if it is reported it is not alway's acted upon. So you could report someone and it will be recorded and all the rest of it but sometimes nothing is done about it sometimes this is understandable and other times it is not.

So yes i agree with you that its not just the responsibility of those in what i call "they system" but really my main point in this thread is not so much about the killing but rather the fact that the woman who was this child mother let it go on then got a pathetic sentence and is now getting out early.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


This case is one of the most horrific I have ever heard of. There have of course, been murders more physically destructive, more immediately savage, leaving worse messes at the crime scenes. But the fact that this sweet defenceless child was basically tortured, over a significant period, until his death, makes this crime the most terrible imaginable.

That one of the perpetrators of this horrid act is being released is an indictment against the justice system. The fact is that people who abuse and kill children, or allow a child to come to such devastating harm, ought to be locked away until the end of their UNIVERSE, let alone their pathetic lives.

Fact is, the only good thing about this release, is that with this cretin back on the street, the chances are better that someone will wind up gutting the spineless wretch, or better yet spending some time beating and crushing the life out of her worthless husk.

OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

I think if we put aside the "evil" debate for a moment and address what you are saying about "community" as part of the system.

Essentially if i am correct you are saying that we should not have just relied on social work and police to have done something but a neighbor or other relative should have spoke up

I totally agree with you, that is exactly what should have happened and it is very probable it did happen. I cannot go into details but i have had a fair bit of relations regarding child protection and venerable adult protection and the sad truth is that even if it is reported it is not alway's acted upon. So you could report someone and it will be recorded and all the rest of it but sometimes nothing is done about it sometimes this is understandable and other times it is not.

So yes i agree with you that its not just the responsibility of those in what i call "they system" but really my main point in this thread is not so much about the killing but rather the fact that the woman who was this child mother let it go on then got a pathetic sentence and is now getting out early.

edit on 8-10-2013 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)

Now you got it.

I don't have to know a person or their kids....but I have spoke up before.

I have no problem butting out....but I feel I also have a duty to act. I think we all have a duty to act.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I should add...social justice likely will win in the end.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


What is sick is that one parent can refuse a vaccine and have their child taken into custody yet this parent has what 60 visits for known abuse and the child stays in their care and dies.

Yea the system is definitely screwed up.

She should be castrated and never allowed to have children again because lets face it she will end up knocked up eventually.

reply to post by mblahnikluver

What is sick is that one parent can refuse a vaccine and have their child taken into custody

Don't get me wrong, taking a child into custody just because the parent refuses a vaccine is wrong but I am guessing that was not in the UK.

The Baby P case is quite complex, as was the aftermath. I am not an advocate of the death penalty, nor indefinite or overly long sentences that have rendered the US prison system a joke, but I do think that women and men who have demonstrated that they cannot (that's CANNOT) be trusted with children should be prevented from having them.

In this case the mother should be prevented from ever having kids again. She does not deserve a second chance and must never be trusted with the chance. It is in the interest of society and the possible children.

Regards

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Now you got it.

I don't have to know a person or their kids....but I have spoke up before.

I have no problem butting out....but I feel I also have a duty to act. I think we all have a duty to act.

you know saying "now you got it" kind of sounds to me like your teaching me some how about child protection and how we all have a responsiblitly to report things.

I was never saying that we didn't and I myself have been involved a couple of times in initiating a child being put into care.

The real problem in the UK is the lack of any real deterrent.

In the real world, people are working for a pittance and face a constant struggle to keep a roof over their heads and put food in their stomachs. People are made homeless every day, couples split up due to financial problems, and both men and women suffer mental breakdowns under the stress. The majority of people here are up against it and where as most struggle on, a minority resort to crime.

And in many cases, these criminals are the lucky ones. They go to prison and get free room and board, free food and they don't have to work for it either. A couple of years inside is like a holiday compared to the daily struggle on the outside. Many prisoners in this country benefit from their own TV, stereo, games consoles and internet. In some prisons, you can even play golf. The hardships of jail, eh?

So facing the possibility of enjoying a better life in prison than on the outside, why shouldn't people steal, murder, molest kids and torture babies?

This woman has been found guilty of a terrible crime. She has served a sentence that most would agree, is inadequate. And if she finds life too hard on the outside, she can always preside over the death of another toddler, safe in the knowledge that she'll be rewarded with a better life inside.

reply to post by Scorchio


Not sure what Brit prison is like....but i would rather die than serve in a US prison. Around here, you either join with a racial group (Skinheads for white folks, Texas Syndicate for histpanics, so on and so forth), or you take on the risk of personal responsibility for protection.

It is a bad, bad enironment. I cannot imagine it improves the chances for successful reintegration for someone who already has impulse control issues (such as the everyday prisoner).

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


A UK prison is the exact opposite of a American prison

I have a mate who is inside just now because of some questionable business dealings that her Royal highness's courts felt was "fraudulent". I phoned him when he first went in, told me its a bit like a holiday camp, he has a TV with full sky, was able to bring in his X-box and spends most of his time teaching business economics to other inmates (which is very very funny). They are also in general much safer although like all prison systems have their fair shear of nasty people who will kick the crap out of you.

Our prisons though over all are a bit of a national joke, you know, if you want a free holiday go rob your local bank kind of stuff.

Unless you end up in Bellmarsh your in for a free all (tax payers) expenses paid holiday, and even Category A makes a Texan Super-Max look like a school play ground.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin



It's easy to demonize a mother who apparently has allowed this sort of thing to happen. Many people in an abusive situation get stuck in a perpetual fight or flight state, and allow this sort of thing becuase their mind is telling them to just survive no matter what, it will make tolerating abuse acceptable if it lowers the risk of being harmed or killed. When it gets to that point it's really just a survival instinct and individuals that have caved in to this point of inaction are typically so emotionally broken they really can not be viewed as sane. But we don't know all the details from this story.

reply to post by neilarm


I have to disagree with you entirely

She was found guilty of allowing (not under duress) the abuse of her son when all of the facts pertaining to the case were made public in a court of law, she was not forced into this, she just sat back and failed to report it.

She is not fit to be a mother, she should be spending at least another 5-10 years in prison for what she done.