Why become enlightened?

reply to post by Aphorism


"if you have to ask you will never know"

enlightenment is being beyond concepts, so in trying to be safe and understand enlightenment before it happens is futile and kind of self-masturbatory

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

But I'm discussing the 'real deal' here.

I would imagine that everyone thinks they are discussing the 'real deal' here. But since every 'real deal' here is different from another, I would then have to imagine that no one really knows what they are talking about.

What is your personal desire behind seeking the
information?

I think everyone's information here is quite distorted in these regards. So it isn't information I seek, but to bring to light the all too human needs and desires behind every spiritual claim—and to have fun.

reply to post by IandEye


I asked "why", not "what".

reply to post by Unity_99


I was actually asking "why" become enlightened? What motive is here? In your post, you list off many supernatural powers. Is your quest for enlightenment simply lust for more power?

Why do a lot things?

Sure, enlightenment is a selfish goal in that aspect, and some would probably admit. I think it depends on the individual, like if one wants to better their understandings, or just bettering the mind. Others have used such practices using it for their own goals, like cult figures who use meditation to prove such status?

Why pray? Is it to please some mighty spirit of the universe, as to not invoke its eternal wrath?

Is it to want that new corvette in the parking garage and to be a rockstar? Or is it to wish someone a safe return home?

To me, enlightenment is about bettering one self most the time, I mean, you can't help people, if you can't help your self right?

Although you are right, it would make more people not strive for such material things. Which is why they suffer, because they want it so bad.

Supposedly, Buddha meditated for two different reasons. One reason why, is he was bored of it all, and the other, could of been a selfish reason. And he'd probably admit too.

I would like to site that reason, but Google horrible when you want something when it come to certain searches.

Enlightment, probably comes to those who wait, like buddha did for seven, or six days...I can't remember.

reply to post by Aphorism


It's because many people want to admit they attained their goodness and enlightenment through themselves, and through their own work, rather than realizing that same enlightenment is free and given equally to someone who works at it and to someone who doesn't. Anything that allows one human to put themselves above another human will do. Truly, if someone was actually enlightened, they would never tell anybody this, that is why anybody who says they are enlightened is in fact not. Something born evil does not have the capability to become good within its own self.

reply to post by Aphorism

Why become enlightened?

Because the flip side, is to remain Unenlightened

There is some things you have to understand. Do you remember when you were a kid, and you went through the stage of asking questions about everything? Why this? Why that? Why is water wet? Why is the sky blue? Why do we exist?

That curiosity is naturally built into us. As we get older, we become jaded by the programming that is programmed into is, and we stop asking those questions, assuming there are no answers.

But guess what???? There are people and systems of thought that are thousands of years old, that have continued asking those questions, going within, looking, finding out, realizing the source of thought, the source of emotions, the source of the life force that animates the body. And because of those findings, we have Blueprints and maps that show how to realize these things.

This question is bothersome. Whomever is forced to answer such a question would then have to relate the myriad of selfish desires that might impel one toward wanting enlightenment—assuming they were of the honest variety of course.

When kids are asking why why why, is that selfish? Or is that that selflessly curious?

What underlying currents of want and fancy is at work here?

Heart, intuition, a deeper sense of something more, a jadedness with the status quo, nonconformism, built in curiosity, questioning everything, not trusting the system.

Is it the all-too-predictable desire for power?

Giving up your ego, pure surrender, selflessness, humbleness/humility, giving all needs/desires, loving others, you call "power"?

Is it the vain motivation to appear more powerful or "spiritual" than others?

There is a big difference between "Spiritual Pride," and "Enlightenment". The former has nothing to do with the latter.

Is it to end one's own suffering and to live in various states of bliss and happiness?

That's part of it. Don't all people want to inherently end their own suffering? Don't all people want to inherently have bliss and be happy?

Why become enlightened?

Because the flipside, is Unenlightenment. What does that consist of? Being entirely wrapped up in your self, in ego, which filters reality with illusions, complaints, stress, worry, makes happiness relative to gain, is unconscious of the inner workings of the Self. Is wrapped in the programming of the world. Fears death. Has a myriad of attachments. Is the cause of the worlds ills (war, rape, pillage, division, separation, selfishness, hatred, greed, corruption, etc)


Can We Be Free If Reason Is the Slave of the Passions?

Can We Be Free IF Reason Is The Slave Of The Passions?

Aphorism
Why become enlightened?

This question is bothersome. Whomever is forced to answer such a question would then have to relate the myriad of selfish desires that might impel one toward wanting enlightenment—assuming they were of the honest variety of course.

What underlying currents of want and fancy is at work here? Is it the all-too-predictable desire for power? Is it the vain motivation to appear more powerful or "spiritual" than others? Is it to end one's own suffering and to live in various states of bliss and happiness?

Or is it for noble reasons—to ease humanity's woes, to help others—things that many less enlightened people strive for on a day to day?

Why become enlightened?

Enlightenment is about the remembrance of becoming One with God. I say "remembrance" because you have always been One with God. But your amnesia has brought you to the feeling of separation when descending into this world. Sure, there are people who seek Enlightenment for Egoistic or selfish desires of power. However, even if they do reach enlightenment, it is only temporary and lack greatly in all things (love, wisdom, power). Because true transcendence requires light from God, yet anything that is not of God do not last and the misqualified energy that you are using to sustain it is dreadfully limited.

reply to post by dominicus

Because the flip side, is to remain Unenlightened

There is some things you have to understand. Do you remember when you were a kid, and you went through the stage of asking questions about everything? Why this? Why that? Why is water wet? Why is the sky blue? Why do we exist?

That curiosity is naturally built into us. As we get older, we become jaded by the programming that is programmed into is, and we stop asking those questions, assuming there are no answers.

But guess what???? There are people and systems of thought that are thousands of years old, that have continued asking those questions, going within, looking, finding out, realizing the source of thought, the source of emotions, the source of the life force that animates the body. And because of those findings, we have Blueprints and maps that show how to realize these things.

I agree that the curiosity is always there, and I see no problem in attempting to create a foundation of thought. But I don't think it is true that anyone has found anything out. I mean, how does one realize when he discovers truth? How is he able to compare his own truth with the actual truth? Does God come down and say "yes, you are correct." The simple answer is no.

There are no findings whatsoever, only creations. Blueprints, systems of thought, philosophies and various types of canned spirituality, are all man-made truths. Blueprints and maps only serve to mislead one into another's way of thinking.

When kids are asking why why why, is that selfish? Or is that that selflessly curious?

No. But expecting an answer is.

Heart, intuition, a deeper sense of something more, a jadedness with the status quo, nonconformism, built in curiosity, questioning everything, not trusting the system.

My heart, my intuition, my deepest sense of something more, my jadedness, nonconformism and not trusting the system is a good enough reason to question any "blueprint" or "system" laid down by anyone else.

Giving up your ego, pure surrender, selflessness, humbleness/humility, giving all needs/desires, loving others, you call "power"?

I call that simple ethics. No need for enlightenment to balance these acts. Anyone is capable of these human traits. The power I speak of is the supernatural powers that come with being "awakened", namely, omniscience and the end of suffering. I would and can argue that both are impossible.

There is a big difference between "Spiritual Pride," and "Enlightenment". The former has nothing to do with the latter.

Then why tell people you're enlightened? To garner followers? To sound authoritative in spiritual matters? Because it sounds cool?

That's part of it. Don't all people want to inherently end their own suffering? Don't all people want to inherently have bliss and be happy?

We already have what is inherent. People always want more. The enlightened are no different then the average dick and jane.

Because the flipside, is Unenlightenment. What does that consist of? Being entirely wrapped up in your self, in ego, which filters reality with illusions, complaints, stress, worry, makes happiness relative to gain, is unconscious of the inner workings of the Self. Is wrapped in the programming of the world. Fears death. Has a myriad of attachments. Is the cause of the worlds ills (war, rape, pillage, division, separation, selfishness, hatred, greed, corruption, etc)

Unenlightenment in your context is just as meaningless as enlightenment. The only difference between the enlightened and the unenlightened is that the enlightened ones claim that they are enlightened. Whether they actually think they are enlightened or whether they are lying through their teeth is the only questions we need to ask these lost souls. Nonetheless, they always have a method to sell for whatever personal gain it is that still guides their choices.

These folk, well-intentioned I'm sure, are rife and swimming in ego the moment they claim they are enlightened. It's as if one was to say "I am famous" because he thinks it gives him a one up on everyone else, or that his self-proclaimed status deserves him a free drink at the bar.

reply to post by ctophil

Enlightenment is about the remembrance of becoming One with God.

I don't think someone who was enlightened would need the crutch of traditional concepts.

reply to post by Specimen


I agree with you almost 100%.

Although you are right, it would make more people not strive for such material things. Which is why they suffer, because they want it so bad.

But what of those who strive from immaterial things?

Why? To pick up chicks... duh

reply to post by Aphorism


Strive from Immaterial things...Now that's a tough one.

I don't know, for that can be a lot different things and reasons, but I'd say it more flexible then the material.

Let use the final aim of the chakra system, for example. The Crown chakra is said to have problems with attachment. Now this can go ether way the material and immaterial, since it said to be "cosmic", which pretty much mean everything in the dam universe. So the main goal is to let go of everything(not literally), even if it was the that inspiration that got you so far.

Like the old saying " if you love something, let it go." I hope that helps. Immaterial sometimes will not be different then the material.

reply to post by Aphorism

I agree that the curiosity is always there, and I see no problem in attempting to create a foundation of thought. But I don't think it is true that anyone has found anything out.

By the very logic of your statement above, we can the also say that since "you don't think its true that anyone has found anything out," then no one knows anything. If no one knows anything, then people wouldn't know how to cook, design cars, raise children, build bridges.

Do you want to take back that statement? (considering you know how to use words to form legible/logical/understandable sentences)

I mean, how does one realize when he discovers truth? How is he able to compare his own truth with the actual truth?

1. Because others have come before us, have found "Truth", and have left blueprints/maps for others.
2. The actual Truth, is primordial Existence, prior to concepts/filters/illusions. Those who taste it, all describe it similarly.

If I go to Hawaii, and know from direct experience how it is there, and then come back to the States, call you, and tell you, "Hey Aphorism, there is a beautiful island you just have to visit. Here's how you get there. When you get back, let's talk and compare notes." So you end up going there, and after returning, you say, "You were right, its beautiful, the water is warm, the palm trees are tall, the weather is warm." Notes are compared.

Does God come down and say "yes, you are correct." The simple answer is no.

God is already everywhere, Absolute, Infinite. God is already here, in everyone, amongst everything.

There are some Spiritual Paths towards truth, were eventually you get Grace, which is a direct experience of awakening and help from Spiritual beings. There are tons of people who have these experiences. Or, if you go down the non-Grace paths, like Buddhism, they say, "Don't take our word for it, here's the maps/blueprints, go see and test for yourself if what we say is true."

There are no findings whatsoever, only creations. Blueprints, systems of thought, philosophies and various types of canned spirituality, are all man-made truths.

Is nature man-made? Is existence itself man made? And yet we have maps/blueprints within Science of how it all works.

Ironically, you used maps/blueprints in school to learn language, critical thinking, math, science, logic, reason. So by your own argument, everything you have learned "are all man-made truths."

Tons of truths are not man-made. 2+2=4 has always been that way, even prior to the existence of humans. Reality/Existence has been around/true, prior to humans. Not everything is man-made.

No. But expecting an answer is.

Expecting or wanting to know the answer to a question is Selfish?

My heart, my intuition, my deepest sense of something more, my jadedness, nonconformism and not trusting the system is a good enough reason to question any "blueprint" or "system" laid down by anyone else.

That's where testing and vetting comes in. We use the Scientific Method to see if something is true or not. The same thing can be used to test a Map/Blueprint towards Enlightenment. For example, Buddha laid down a bunch of maps/blueprints, and said, "Do not automatically trust that what I have laid out is true, test it and see for yourself if it is this way."

So you have 2 options.
1. Remain in your current state of mind/existence/consciousness and don't test anything, do to assuming its all man-made make believe.
2. Test everything and see if any of it is legit/true.

I call that simple ethics. No need for enlightenment to balance these acts. Anyone is capable of these human traits. The power I speak of is the supernatural powers that come with being "awakened", namely, omniscience and the end of suffering. I would and can argue that both are impossible.

Omniscience and the end of suffering does not = power. It comes with selflessness, you literally lose yourself in the process of gain, and so at the end, there is no one there to have the "power".

Then why tell people you're enlightened? To garner followers? To sound authoritative in spiritual matters? Because it sounds cool?

Because Enlightenment is real.
Because when you have Enlightenment, you don't care about followers, you only have compassion to share with others how they themselves can get it.
Because Authorities in different Specialties exist. If your car is broken, you go to a mechanic. Cavities? You go to a dentist. Sick? You go to a Doctor. You want Enlightenment? You go to someone who already has it to learn. There is nothing wrong with Authorities. I will always acknowledge a specialist and admit they know more than me in their area of study.
"Because it sounds cool?" That has nothing to with anything. IF somebody is saying "enlightenment" to sound cool, that remind some of what 5 year olds do.

We already have what is inherent

What is that?

. People always want more.

The ENlightened are content, don't want or need anything other than the basic necessities for life. Food, water, shelter, clothes.

The enlightened are no different then the average dick and jane.

They are not different in that all are still Human Beings, but they are different in that they posses a direct knowledge/experience that average dick/jane does not posses. I would never say I am the same as a Doctor/Dentist/Mechanic, because they hold direct knowledge/wisdom/skill which I do not posses.

Unenlightenment in your context is just as meaningless as enlightenment.

Well then by that very argument, your context and all your points are also meaningless. How can you apply these factors to another persons context but not your own?

The only difference between the enlightened and the unenlightened is that the enlightened ones claim that they are enlightened. Whether they actually think they are enlightened or whether they are lying through their teeth is the only questions we need to ask these lost souls.

How do you know they are lost souls? Maye it is you that are lost and they that are found. Relative.

Nonetheless, they always have a method to sell for whatever personal gain it is that still guides their choices.

All the Methods I have studied, have been free, did not require donations, did not require worshiping/following some figure. Relative

These folk, well-intentioned I'm sure, are rife and swimming in ego the moment they claim they are enlightened.

Prove it

It's as if one was to say "I am famous" because he thinks it gives him a one up on everyone else, or that his self-proclaimed status deserves him a free drink at the bar.

If someone asks me, "What do you do for a living?", and I answer, "I'm a Doctor," does this answer mean that I think it gives me a leg up on everyone else and that this self proclaimed status deserves me a free drink? Or am I merely stated a fact?

You seem to assume and project a lot of things.

Aphorism
Why become enlightened?

Hello dear user,

I hope you are well and happy.

This is a good question. Oftentimes people ask what enlightenment is, or assume to know what it is. But rarely does one ask why? Because it would seem that the reasons are obvious at first glance... but by looking at human psychology, we can see that they sometimes are not as obvious, and certainly not made any easier from all the bondages of suffering that humans experience caused by attachment and delusion.

This question is bothersome. Whomever is forced to answer such a question would then have to relate the myriad of selfish desires that might impel one toward wanting enlightenment—assuming they were of the honest variety of course.

Bothersome? Nah, it can just be time consuming but better to talk about such things than other things for a time.

What underlying currents of want and fancy is at work here? Is it the all-too-predictable desire for power? Is it the vain motivation to appear more powerful or "spiritual" than others? Is it to end one's own suffering and to live in various states of bliss and happiness?

It can be many things! Why do people do what they do? Many reasons. It CAN be selfish, in wanting power or to laud their greatness over others, it CAN be altruistic, in attempting to end one's own suffering so that they can help others through their suffering. When one is 'enlightened' though, all those reasons fall away. When truth is realized, when self is realized, the ego mind of the individual which one identifies with is known for the illusion it is. What is this thing that wants all these other things? We come to view mind identity as foolish, do you identify with a tool that you use? Your mind is no different, and it is a magnificent tool, but it is not self. Mind is part of something and arises from something, it is co-dependent arising phenomena through the body. Self is much more subtle than mind, we are always self, but we have ears to choose what to listen to, the enlightened are clear of the differences of both, and therefore free from the delusion of not knowing the subtle differences and coming to faulty identification and pronounced suffering rising from attachment from it.

Or is it for noble reasons—to ease humanity's woes, to help others—things that many less enlightened people strive for on a day to day?

This is more in line with cosmic consciousness (God if you will). It depends on the person the exact perspective of this path of want. In order to traverse a path, there has to be will and desire to cover the ground and get to the other side. Much of that desire is created by not wanting to suffer anymore. Some do it for the suffering of others, as they only want to help to ease the pain of others, and in doing so must look for awakening themselves. How can you help another drowning man if you yourself are in the ocean of delusion?

Why become enlightened?

Why does a seed grow into a flower, a baby into a grown person, a caterpillar into a butterfly? Because it is the natural progression of nature.

As humans we have a sentient mind. A beautiful brain that is able to collect information, store it, problem solve it, and reflect on it in many ways. It is only natural for our intrinsically curious species to ask questions about life itself. We have sought out many things, what is the nature of our reality? We have looked deep into the fabric of reality through physics to answer that question. We have asked, what are those things beyond the sky, the stars that burn so bright, where are they, what lies beyond them? So we put our eyes and our minds to the heavens to answer those questions.

Is it not natural then to ask the question, what is self? Our natural curiosity leads us to ask these reflective questions so that our mind can come to know these things for ourselves as a species. Our mind can reflect on what self is, and once it tries to find that out, it effectively knows that mind is not self. So what is self?

That is the question that enlightenment answers quite clearly. The why is for the mind. The happening is because of natural law.

Aphorism
Why become enlightened?

Of all the things one can do, here, via meditation or mindfulness, you can possibly self-evolve to a higher minded condition.

Mindfulness is now thought to be able to relieve some types of schizophrenia.

What troubles people are things like 'quieting the internal dialogue', 'learning to deal with and own your own obsessions and neuroses', developing ways to calm the inner demons, handling your anger and temper.

Can you really be 'enlightened' in the sense of a cosmic flash? It's not clear. That might not be the motivation. After all many of the most enlightened gurus had personal problems. Some were actually alcoholics, or skirt chasers. The Beatles grew weary of their guru's feet of clay (he was into materialism).

But what if you can improve your own mind, evolve into a higher minded being? It might be worth it, because harnessing the mind's impulses would give one great personal power.

The only true result of enlightenment is the end of ones suffering.

Nothing more.

reply to post by dominicus

By the very logic of your statement above, we can the also say that since "you don't think its true that anyone has found anything out," then no one knows anything. If no one knows anything, then people wouldn't know how to cook, design cars, raise children, build bridges.

Do you want to take back that statement? (considering you know how to use words to form legible/logical/understandable sentences)

I do not wish to retract my statement because that is not the logical conclusion of my statements. I didn't say no one knows anything. I said that people create what they know. People design cars because cars were invented, not discovered from nature. People know how to build bridges because bridges were invented, not because they were discovered from nature. Creation over discovery every single time. The same goes for spiritual matters.

1. Because others have come before us, have found "Truth", and have left blueprints/maps for others.

And where did they find it? And what did they find? Nothing. They created it out of thin air by thinking. I think they call it meditation in spiritual circles.

2. The actual Truth, is primordial Existence, prior to concepts/filters/illusions. Those who taste it, all describe it similarly.

They interpret it and describe it, they create it. That is all they can do. Concepts, filters and illusions just so happen to be a part of primordial existence. They exist.

If I go to Hawaii, and know from direct experience how it is there, and then come back to the States, call you, and tell you, "Hey Aphorism, there is a beautiful island you just have to visit. Here's how you get there. When you get back, let's talk and compare notes." So you end up going there, and after returning, you say, "You were right, its beautiful, the water is warm, the palm trees are tall, the weather is warm." Notes are compared.

Except Hawaii is an actual place outside of our minds. Enlightenment cannot be found anywhere but in the imagination of those who call themselves enlightened.

God is already everywhere, Absolute, Infinite. God is already here, in everyone, amongst everything.

There are some Spiritual Paths towards truth, were eventually you get Grace, which is a direct experience of awakening and help from Spiritual beings. There are tons of people who have these experiences. Or, if you go down the non-Grace paths, like Buddhism, they say, "Don't take our word for it, here's the maps/blueprints, go see and test for yourself if what we say is true."

Sure people can have experiences of bliss, or comfort or imagine that they are awakening their third eyes and chakras. But how is an interpretation of experience in any way truth?

Anyone can sell a promise of comfort. Snake-oil salesmen were rampant once upon a time.

Is nature man-made? Is existence itself man made? And yet we have maps/blueprints within Science of how it all works.

Ironically, you used maps/blueprints in school to learn language, critical thinking, math, science, logic, reason. So by your own argument, everything you have learned "are all man-made truths."

Tons of truths are not man-made. 2+2=4 has always been that way, even prior to the existence of humans. Reality/Existence has been around/true, prior to humans. Not everything is man-made.

Science is an interpretation of events and as a result is conjecture. That is it. Interpretations of events are created by whomever is interpreting.

2+2=4 never existed until someone came up with 2's and 4's. Anyone with any sort of math experience knows that mathematics is abstract, and thus created in the mind. Math is also conjecture.

That's where testing and vetting comes in. We use the Scientific Method to see if something is true or not. The same thing can be used to test a Map/Blueprint towards Enlightenment. For example, Buddha laid down a bunch of maps/blueprints, and said, "Do not automatically trust that what I have laid out is true, test it and see for yourself if it is this way."

So you have 2 options.
1. Remain in your current state of mind/existence/consciousness and don't test anything, do to assuming its all man-made make believe.
2. Test everything and see if any of it is legit/true.

If enlightenment is merely a state of mind, then why doesn't anyone admit this? State of minds are easy to go in and out of.

And I have never said that I wasn't a practitioner of spirituality myself. In the end, I see only humanity in our spiritually enlightened ones, and the all too common escapism of an overactive imagination.

Because Enlightenment is real.
Because when you have Enlightenment, you don't care about followers, you only have compassion to share with others how they themselves can get it.
Because Authorities in different Specialties exist. If your car is broken, you go to a mechanic. Cavities? You go to a dentist. Sick? You go to a Doctor. You want Enlightenment? You go to someone who already has it to learn. There is nothing wrong with Authorities. I will always acknowledge a specialist and admit they know more than me in their area of study.
"Because it sounds cool?" That has nothing to with anything. IF somebody is saying "enlightenment" to sound cool, that remind some of what 5 year olds do.

It's one thing to learn a trade or something useful. It's another to learn how to think, speak and act like someone else. Spiritual teachers only deal in ancient and arbitrary words and concepts.

The ENlightened are content, don't want or need anything other than the basic necessities for life. Food, water, shelter, clothes.

And apparently a pedestal and bull-horn to tell everyone about it.

How do you know they are lost souls? Maye it is you that are lost and they that are found. Relative.

True enough. I hope you too would mention that you could be absolutely wrong. Relative.

All the Methods I have studied, have been free, did not require donations, did not require worshiping/following some figure. Relative

Perhaps it is to justify to yourself that you have not completely wasted your time.

"These folk, well-intentioned I'm sure, are rife and swimming in ego the moment they claim they are enlightened. "

Prove it

If you were to say you were enlightened, and I disagreed with you, would you get so worked up that you absolutely must tell me I am wrong? The very fact that you reply to doubters proves quite easily that ego is at work here. The ego doesn't want to be thought of as a liar, or worse, ignorant.

If someone asks me, "What do you do for a living?", and I answer, "I'm a Doctor," does this answer mean that I think it gives me a leg up on everyone else and that this self proclaimed status deserves me a free drink? Or am I merely stated a fact?

You seem to assume and project a lot of things.

Well, personally I see those who claimed they are enlightened as lower on a social scale, because they deal in practically nothing but self-satiation. A doctor at least deals with real problems. They alleviate more suffering than an enlightened one ever could. Doctors are of actual use.

And you seem to assume and project a lot of things.

Passes the time.

Time passes regardless. Or does it?

Those who are enlightened report that time itself is an illusion.

For me, smokin' weed seem to confirm this, at least I get the
feeling time has slowed down. Perhaps enlightenment is merely
becoming aware and awakened to the illusion of time.

Why do people seek enlightenment?
Because it is in their DNA to do so.

Huggiesunrise
The only true result of enlightenment is the end of ones suffering.

Nothing more.

The suffering doesn't end, only the self-inflicted pain.

The shift happens when we are willing to suffer and
stop resisting that which is beyond our control.

Happiness may come and go, but Joy is an ever present reality.
Those who have not attained a measure of enlightenment don't
know this because their self-inflicted pain gets in the way.