Clergy who’ve lost their faith due to patriarchy

Krazysh0t
reply to post by TheEthicalSkeptic

 

That is a gross misreading of this thread. No one is suggesting you only have two choices for faith.

"...former clergy who have lost their supernatural beliefs."

Yes, the article is suggesting this very thing. This quote above is the preamble and basis of the article, and belies the later apologetics you excuse it through. Every religion claims to have 'freethinkers' and people of varied backgrounds in their membership. That is part of the ruse. That does not excuse or apologize for fatalist doctrines. This quote is describing a core tenet of one specific religion which is the core belief promoted by its founder. Atheist Nihilism. I am citing the bifurcation fallacy entailed in the message they have crafted. Clergy or Atheist, you must choose. I have not attacked a person, simply argued a point; so attacking me personally is unwarranted and pejorative.

reply to post by TheEthicalSkeptic


No you are just reading too far into the word clergy. Like I posted when originally responding to you, it isn't just ex-Christians joining this group. The article uses the word clergy to encompass all religious preachers from all denominations. Sure it's a misuse of the word since only Christians have a clergy, but it doesn't take much reading into of the article to deduce the author's intent. By the way the founder says this about herself:

I identify as a secular humanist.

Secular Humanism

The founder of this group doesn't call herself an atheist as well as the definition of secular humanism says that you can still believe in a God.

They categorize themselves in one of three ways. Religious Humanism, in the tradition of the earliest Humanist organizations in the UK and US, attempts to fulfill the traditional social role of religion.[20] Secular humanism considers all forms of religion, including religious Humanism, to be superseded.[21] In order to sidestep disagreements between these two factions, recent Humanist proclamations define Humanism as a "life stance"; proponents of this view making up the third faction. All three types of Humanism (and all three of the American Humanist Association's manifestos) reject deference to supernatural beliefs; promoting the practical, methodological naturalism of science, but also going further and supporting the philosophical stance of metaphysical naturalism.[22] The result is an approach to issues in a secular way. Humanism addresses ethics without reference to the supernatural as well, attesting that ethics is a human enterprise (see naturalistic ethics).[1][2][3]

Humanism is compatible with atheism[25] and agnosticism,[26] but being atheist or agnostic does not, itself, make one a Humanist. Nevertheless, humanism is diametrically opposed to state atheism.[27][28] According to Paul Kurtz, considered by some to be the founder of the American secular humanist movement,[29] one of the differences between Marxist-Leninist atheists and humanists is the latter's commitment to "human freedom and democracy" while stating that the militant atheism of the Soviet Union consistently violated basic human rights.[30] Kurtz also stated that the "defense of religious liberty is as precious to the humanist as are the rights of the believers".[30] Greg M. Epstein states that, "modern, organized Humanism began, in the minds of its founders, as nothing more nor less than a religion without a God".

Your post also happens to be an insult to agnostics. We aren't nihilistic about God. We say that we don't know, but even then we lean in one particular direction or another. Some agnostics will say that they don't know but find it likely that a God exists and the others say the opposite.

Also your original post was definitely worded in a trolling manner. Don't get all bent out of shape because I called you out on it. If you wanted to actually discuss this topic and elaborate on your points, don't post some three line sarcastic post that has little to do with the OP. Though I would like to thank you for getting me to post all this information, I didn't even know what secular humanism was until you started talking about how this thread was about nihilistic atheism.

sk0rpi0n
op... That is simply a symptom of a religion in decline. Religion is simply incompatible with an atheist/secular way of life.... And vice versa. It would be delusional of a christian to claim he is at peace with an atheistic society that has laws in place to protect ones ''right'' to insult God, the prophets and Jesus (packaged as 'free speech'). when godlessness oversaturates a society, the majority religion begins to crumble... Which is why even religious clergy begin to lose faith. When the godless are paraded as heroes and adored by the masses, even the religious begin to doubt their faith. As for atheism being on the rise, it does not neccesarily signal the beginning of an enlightenment or scientific progress. For example - the junk that passes off as 'entertainment' are the direct results of a society without religion.

A society without religion is a direct result of religion that has not maintained relevance.

The writings of folks thousands of years ago is just not enough for us. At least, not for me. I want to be enriched, to discuss logic and philosophy. Not entrust my future to a book that, for all I really know, could be either made up, or penned by mad men.

reply to post by Grimpachi


The Roman Empire tried and tried and tried to stamp out the "horrid Christian blasphemous religion" for 3 centuries, then Christ Jesus converted the Emperor himself and he made Christianity the official state religion and Christianity took off from a small sect of Judaism with a couple million followers to the worlds top religion with tens/hundreds of millions of followers in a couple centuries....

Don't worry, God will always have the last say in things,

Just wait, the Parousia is coming, though it lingers, wait for it....

Habakkuk 2:2 Then the Lord answered me and said:

“Write the vision
And make it plain on tablets,
That he may run who reads it.
3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
Because it will surely come,
It will not tarry.

4 “Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.


Also, a warning to the corrupt priests who are basically "wolves in sheeps clothing" pasturing a flock that they are not worthy to shepherd;

Malachi 2:2 “And now, O priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If you will not hear,
And if you will not take it to heart,
To give glory to My name,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“I will send a curse upon you,
And I will curse your blessings.
Yes, I have cursed them already,
Because you do not take it to heart.

and to the rest of the world:

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.


and last but not least;

Rev 22:6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.



God bless

godlover25
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

The Roman Empire tried and tried and tried to stamp out the "horrid Christian blasphemous religion" for 3 centuries, then Christ Jesus converted the Emperor himself and he made Christianity the official state religion and Christianity took off from a small sect of Judaism with a couple million followers to the worlds top religion with tens/hundreds of millions of followers in a couple centuries....

Don't worry, God will always have the last say in things,

Just wait, the Parousia is coming, though it lingers, wait for it....

Habakkuk 2:2 Then the Lord answered me and said:

“Write the vision
And make it plain on tablets,
That he may run who reads it.
3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
Because it will surely come,
It will not tarry.

4 “Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.


Also, a warning to the corrupt priests who are basically "wolves in sheeps clothing" pasturing a flock that they are not worthy to shepherd;

Malachi 2:2 “And now, O priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If you will not hear,
And if you will not take it to heart,
To give glory to My name,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“I will send a curse upon you,
And I will curse your blessings.
Yes, I have cursed them already,
Because you do not take it to heart.

and to the rest of the world:

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.


and last but not least;

Rev 22:6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.



God bless

Jesus Christ man. If you would put that much into memorizing and quoting Obamacare, you could actually make a change in the world.

As it stands, you should know that "tens/hundreds" of millions isn't quite right for Christianity. 2.1 Billion is a little more like it.

wildtimes
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Which is why even religious clergy begin to lose faith.

No, that's not why. It's because they realize after so long that what they are teaching is all a lie....

If they realized that what they were teaching were 'lies', then why are they living a lie? How about a career change? Or are they too comfortable as phoney pastors to consider one?

TheEthicalSkeptic
Gosh, our only two options are to be fundamentalist Christians or nihilist atheists. I never knew the choice was so simple!!

Which one shall I be when I grow up?

Ohhh this is a puzzler.

Hahahaha! Thanks for the laugh

In regards to the OP: I am kind of torn on this one. I have sympathy for people who have lost their faith, but at the same time I find it very immoral of them to continue acting as leaders in their places of worship. I understand the arguments as to why they might choose to do so (and sympathize with them), but ultimately it is an act of dishonesty. It might be a tough transition, but it's a transition they should be willing to make if they are true to their convictions (or lack thereof).

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

then why are they living a lie? How about a career change? Or are they too comfortable as phoney pastors to consider one?

The ones who quit because they know they are living a lie should be the ones you ask. Try Klassified for a handy reference.

Also, Jerry DeWitt. Nate Phelps. They endured the ostracization that came with their 'coming out' that they didn't believe the things they'd been taught to 'preach.'

Many people are "too comfortable" being phony ANYTHINGS to consider a career change. It takes courage and integrity to walk away from something one realizes is wrong even knowing the consequences will be "loss of comfort."

Have YOU ever quit a job on principle? I have, more than once. Schooled and trained, hired in, believing the hype and 'noble package', then discovered the dirty reality - and bailed. LOTS of people do that, but only those of us who HAVE THE GUTS.

April 28, 2013 Listen to interview
"The Exit Ramp" CBC Radio Two Year Follow-up Interview with 'Adam'

We’ve heard a lot of stories on this programme over the years. Very few have been as memorable as the one told by a man whose real name we can’t use and whose real voice you’ve never heard. Adam is an evangelical pastor who doesn’t believe in God. The last time we spoke to him, he felt he was in an impossible position.

Adam is now part of The Clergy Project, an online support group for active and former clergy who no longer believe in God. He was recently awarded the group’s first Employment Transition Assistance Grant. Adam called us on a pay phone somewhere in the southern United States.

www.clergyproject.org...

There you go, Sk0rp. Listen to a man who has done it.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Jerry Dewitt

Jerry DeWitt is an Author, Public Speaker and Secular minister which has made the major news-outlets numerous times in his two short years of activism. Jerry holds the distinction of being the first The Clergy Project active male pastor who came out as an atheist. DeWitt's Christian ministry began at age seventeen. He evangelized the United States and assisted in three Pentecostal churches. Later he held the pastorate of two fundamentalist congregations. After more than twenty-five years of ministry he realized he had become an Atheist.

Currently Jerry is engaged in two projects. First, building a Secular "church" community in Lake Charles Louisiana named Community Mission Chapel and second, touring with his memoir 'Hope After Faith', which was released in June 2013 by Da Capo Press. He also sits on the Board of Directors of both The Clergy Project and The Foundation Beyond Belief. Jerry DeWitt has one son and still lives in rural Louisiana.

I've heard this man speak. He was living in a small town, and was pretty much ex-communicated by THE ENTIRE population when he came clean. It's not easy. There wouldn't be a need for a confidential place for them to go to find strength together if it were simple.

The Clergy Project
The Clergy Project is a confidential online community for active and former clergy who do not hold supernatural beliefs. The Clergy Project launched on March 21st, 2011.

Currently, the community's 515 plus members use it to network and discuss what it's like being an unbelieving leader in a religious community.

The Clergy Project’s goal is to support members as they move beyond faith. Members freely discuss issues related to their transition from believer to unbeliever including:

Wrestling with intellectual, ethical, philosophical and theological issues

Coping with cognitive dissonance

Addressing feelings of being stuck and fearing the future

Looking for new careers

Telling their families

Sharing useful resources

Living as a nonbeliever with religious spouses and family

Using humor to soften the pain

Finding a way out of the ministry

Adjusting to life after the ministry

The Clergy Project

reply to post by FlyersFan

I think they are going through the motions and yet their heart isn't in it. At a certain point in life you are kind of stuck in the job you are in. If you simply 'quit' and don't have a backup job to go to, then you are homeless and unemployed. These folks are in jobs like anyone else ... trained for a specific job ... all their eggs in one basket.

I would agree with you if this "position" isn't a bit specific. I recall that many if not all that go in God's service...do so because they "got the call". It's always some personal relationship with "the maker". It's not a job you initially do for the pay...they claim holly...sanctity of service to God.

To me...this list probably constitutes of few that were able to see the deception, after being in the "field" for a number of years.

But an important question for the believers out there...

is it ok for the pastor to performs service to it's flock, without actually believing in what he preaches ?? Since the entire religious busyness is founded on the unquestionable belief in God

That is highly hypocritical from where I come from.

reply to post by wildtimes

I've heard this man speak. He was living in a small town, and was pretty much ex-communicated by THE ENTIRE population when he came clean.

But why does one need to come clean ???? Isn't a man's faith a personal thing ? Why can't you simply resign your post for personal reasons, and keep your faith to your self ?

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly

I'm sure they can...and do....

but to have real integrity, wouldn't they owe their 'flock' an explanation? I would think that's the honorable thing to do.

They are hardly going to go up to the pulpit and say, "Okay, guys and gals, listen up. This is all a lie. It's bunkum." So they are left with slinking away? Especially those who, like Hagee, have made MILLIONS off of viewership and believers?

It was hard enough for Ellen Degeneres to come out as "gay" and be a comedian. You expect a preacher or imam or rabbi to admit to a congregation of devoted followers who HONESTLY believe in the tripe to publicly ridicule them ALL?

It seems to me, anyway, if I've been preaching but not practicing - if my heart isn't really behind it, it becomes a condemnable charade. And somehow, I don't think people would take it with a smile, a clap on the shoulder, and say, "Good on ya, mate. Okay. I guess we're done here then" and turn to his follow believers and say, "Any questions?"

MarioOnTheFly
But an important question for the believers out there...

is it ok for the pastor to performs service to it's flock, without actually believing in what he preaches ?? Since the entire religious busyness is founded on the unquestionable belief in God

That is highly hypocritical from where I come from.

Actually, if anything it would be highly dangerous. If you as a pastor preached a dogma that you yourself didn't believe in but your congregation believed wholeheartedly in, you could convince them to do some reprehensible things. "You should give 50% of your earnings to the church (me) for the glory of God." "You need to convert the unbelievers so that they can experience the glory of God (give me 50% of their earnings)."

Following this line of thought leads me to believe that many of the Catholic Church leaders who presided over things such as the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, Jewish segregation, excess corruption, and more were themselves atheists. They most likely didn't believe the stuff they were preaching because they most certainly didn't practice it.

Seems to me they need a new job! Much like a heterosexual doing homosexual porn. The fit is just wrong.

GoldenVoyager
Seems to me they need a new job! Much like a heterosexual doing homosexual porn. The fit is just wrong.

That is quite an analogy....

....you certainly are brave! LOL

reply to post by wildtimes

but to have real integrity, wouldn't they owe their 'flock' an explanation? I would think that's the honorable thing to do.

In an ideal, fair, just and reasonable world...surely.

I don't mean to be critical...I would welcome an explanation...but I feel...the "flock" does not want to understand his feeling or his reformation. The flock is a group mind with very little room for "alternative" thinking or believing. At best he will be left alone, at worst...scorned and harassed.

You know the drill...

It's one of those jobs where if you quit for such reasons...you should probably get out of Dodge.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Following this line of thought leads me to believe that many of the Catholic Church leaders who presided over things such as the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, Jewish segregation, excess corruption, and more were themselves atheists. They most likely didn't believe the stuff they were preaching because they most certainly didn't practice it.

Agreed. I wonder how many of the higher ups in the hierarchy today...like bishops or cardinals or whatever...are really non believers in chosen religion...but the draw of power and wealth is too sweet to care about personal convictions.

MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

Following this line of thought leads me to believe that many of the Catholic Church leaders who presided over things such as the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, Jewish segregation, excess corruption, and more were themselves atheists. They most likely didn't believe the stuff they were preaching because they most certainly didn't practice it.

Agreed. I wonder how many of the higher ups in the hierarchy today...like bishops or cardinals or whatever...are really non believers in chosen religion...but the draw of power and wealth is too sweet to care about personal convictions.

Given the difficulty in actually rising to such a position (at least in the Roman Catholic church, see the below video,) and that most of one's early years in seminary and as a parish priest are pretty much living in poverty, there are probably not a lot who would chart such a path.

If you're bright and ambitious, corporate America is the path to wealth and power far more than any church.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


LoL,

I know my friend, I wasn't referring to our current times and ages, I was referring to the first couple centuries A.D.

And actually now-a-days it's about 2.2 billion, and growing

The Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father God Almighty and the Holy Spirit be with you all!

Amen

godlover25
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

LoL,

I know my friend, I wasn't referring to our current times and ages, I was referring to the first couple centuries A.D.

And actually now-a-days it's about 2.2 billion, and growing

The Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father God Almighty and the Holy Spirit be with you all!

Amen

I asked my wife a few days ago, "Hey...i know I have vastly different spiritual beliefs than the Catholic Church...but if we joined could it be just because we like the Pope so much and not because we like Jesus so much?"

The new pope inspires me. Greatly. I am soaking up everything written about him on the web, because he is what I have always thought a Christian leader should be.

I suspect that others feel the same inspiration by him. And I suspect that it will only help the congregation counts on Sundays.

I grew up Lutheran, attended a Baptist university, and hung out at the presbyterian church with my best friend (who lived in the parsonage with his dad and mom). But I am serious about Catholicism. I am interested in it from the perspective of the leadership I am seeing coming from there now.