China and Japan warn US on default

Sovaka
reply to post by OrphanApology

 

Changing your position now?
Just before you were so adamant that the U.S. cannot default on something that it creates.
Yet you seem to be ceding the fact that the U.S. debt is indeed not created by endless printing of paper.

So which side of the fence are you on?

You do realize how much # the U.S. would be in if it didn't have foreign or local investors?
When the U.S. defaults on its debts to its investors... There will be a loss of trust.

Do you really think those same investors will pour more money into the rebooted U.S. after this?
I don't think so...
So what does that mean for the U.S?
It means less income... It means less spending... It means less for Americans in general.

I have never changed my position. I stated the U.S. prints it's money, which it does. The federal reserve is the banking cartel hub that represents international banks, whose best interest rests in the dollar. Look up U.S. based banks and please explain how the U.S. "Defaulting" would be in their best interest. They are the ones who control the federal reserve(with input from international banks as well).

What do you mean which side of the fence? What fence?

When you say the U.S. might not have investors, what exactly do you mean. Do you mean that people will stop loaning the U.S. money in it's own currency? Most investments in the U.S. are fiat based on U.S. currency, unless you count things like Toyota and it's truck plant in Texas which has physical assets.

You then state do I think that more investors will continue to pour money into the U.S....

What money? Are you speaking of U.S. currency again? The only thing that investors have poured in is buying financial vehicles based on the U.S. promise of good fortune. The only reason they haven't pulled out is because of the petrodollar peg.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


A no point did I say I hate America, I was only pointing our that this is much more than just a American problem but a gobal one and Americans should recognise this.

So please, shut up with this "you just hate America" rubbish because nothing could be further from the truth I recognize the impotant role America has on the world stage but like all states it is far from perfect

reply to post by Agit8dChop


Sorry again....

here's a 2nd source *current*

China Urges US to Avoid Debt Crisis

reply to post by OrphanApology

Yeah... it ought to be required reading around here. lol.... I wouldn't call it a humorous book though.

That being said... If the 18th brings a default? Well... One, our credit rating craps out right away, bringing interest rates off the pegs for the first real time since the crisis began under Bush. Scary thing there...because current payment due on debt interest is around a 1/4 trillion a year in Net. That's rolled back into the debt, forming compounding interest. Without interest rates climbing dramatically, it's projected at over half a trillion within a few years.

Bring life to interest rates...? Our whole economy is cooked to a crispy critter faster than a super microwave, IMO. 17 trillion in bad paper on an exploding interest rate would be.... Well... You'd just call that the end game. Rome just didn't exist as a power anymore at one point. Greece too. Persia, The Ottoman Empire...All are examples. We had a damn good run if they don't fix this before then. Yup.. It's been good.

It's not the end in any real sense...but it's the start of a new beginning as a very different nation for world position and place in economic structure. It sure has that potential, in the worst way.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


America! F*** YEA COMING TO SAVE THE M* F* DAY YEA

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by OrphanApology

 

Yeah... it ought to be required reading around here. lol.... I wouldn't call it a humorous book though.

That being said... If the 18th brings a default? Well... One, our credit rating craps out right away, bringing interest rates off the pegs for the first real time since the crisis began under Bush. Scary thing there...because current payment due on debt interest is around a 1/4 trillion a year in Net. That's rolled back into the debt, forming compounding interest. Without interest rates climbing dramatically, it's projected at over half a trillion within a few years.

Bring life to interest rates...? Our whole economy is cooked to a crispy critter faster than a super microwave, IMO. 17 trillion in bad paper on an exploding interest rate would be.... Well... You'd just call that the end game. Rome just didn't exist as a power anymore at one point. Greece too. Persia, The Ottoman Empire...All are examples. We had a damn good run if they don't fix this before then. Yup.. It's been good.

It's not the end in any real sense...but it's the start of a new beginning as a very different nation for world position and place in economic structure. It sure has that potential, in the worst way.

Actually I am kind of excited to see the creation of Bitcoins. I think it's a really exciting idea and it makes me wonder what the future will hold for formats based on open source fiat currency systems like Bitcoin(one of the most brilliant money tracking systems that could be imagined).

One thing is for sure, something is going to happen. At the very least interest rates are going to go nuts at some point like they did in the 80's. I was a child still but at one point mortgage rates were at 18% and there was a 13.5% inflation rate.

If the velocity of money tells us anything, we are in for a very big surprise really soon in some way.

Are you not entertained???

Listen, this is nothing more than circus for the masses. It is political intrigue meant to draw you in.

Now where is that left hand at.....

reply to post by OrphanApology


I'll say this about Bitcoin. The subject of generational changes came up in my antrhopology course and the differences (significant ones) between the baby boomers to roughly my generation (their kids) to the current teens and into 20 somethings (our kids). I think in some ways Bitcoin falls under that. At least it does for me, and people in the RW I've mentioned it to just laugh at the notion of it.

The difference may or may not be valid for concerns. However, the internet and everything else is something I spent as much of my life without as I've spent with it. I can never fully trust something that exists only in the ether and digital world because the reality of how easily it can cease to exist and anything in it? Well...Who cares what used to be inside a box that doesn't give anything anymore (if it all did go down or cease to be viable for some reason, including regulation to crush it).

I've had others use bitcoin for me but I doubt I'll ever really do anything with it. I'll even admit that may be my age showing and it may be a legitimate fault of mine ... I'm in good company for there always being an alternative in demand though. (I hope)

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by OrphanApology

 

I'll say this about Bitcoin. The subject of generational changes came up in my antrhopology course and the differences (significant ones) between the baby boomers to roughly my generation (their kids) to the current teens and into 20 somethings (our kids). I think in some ways Bitcoin falls under that. At least it does for me, and people in the RW I've mentioned it to just laugh at the notion of it.

The difference may or may not be valid for concerns. However, the internet and everything else is something I spent as much of my life without as I've spent with it. I can never fully trust something that exists only in the ether and digital world because the reality of how easily it can cease to exist and anything in it? Well...Who cares what used to be inside a box that doesn't give anything anymore (if it all did go down or cease to be viable for some reason, including regulation to crush it).

I've had others use bitcoin for me but I doubt I'll ever really do anything with it. I'll even admit that may be my age showing and it may be a legitimate fault of mine ... I'm in good company for there always being an alternative in demand though. (I hope)

Well at first I wasn't too fond of the idea of bitcoin until I read how it worked. Here's a great simplistic rundown of how it works. It's really brilliant. The more complicated explanations go into more detail. It is basically a currency where every transaction is tracked(eliminating counterfeit money), anyone who's a part of the network has access to any transaction ever made, there is no central hub meaning that government action is useless, there is a maximum number of bitcoins that can be created eliminating inflation(although at some point people may choose to create their own finance vehicles that are based off the value in smaller increments)...the site below does the complete simplistic rundown but it's just really exciting.

blog.zorinaq.com...

"Bitcoin is like digital gold.
By design, there is a known, immutable, fixed supply of bitcoins, similar to gold being available in limited quantity on Earth. There are 2.1 quadrillion indivisible units of value (0.00000001 bitcoins), and not one more will ever exist.
Bitcoins are digital, therefore you can instantly transfer them to anybody across the world.
Bitcoins are stored locally on your electronic device (cellphone, computer), contrary to being stored in an account managed by a financial institution. This is similar to how you can store cash or gold in a physical location of your choice. This means there is no "Bitcoin account" that can be frozen by someone in power (eg. your spouse making malicious claims to seize a bank account during a divorce).
Bitcoin transactions are technically irreversible. There is no mechanism to revert a transaction, other than convincing the recipient to send the bitcoins back. This solves the fraud problem for merchants, as all the payments they receive are final, whether fraudulent or not. (On the downside, like cash or gold, if bitcoins are stolen from you, the chance of recovering them is generally slim.)
Payments are sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution, similarly to how cash or gold can be handed directly to someone. You do so by sending them from your computer, to the recipient's computer, through the Bitcoin network (which is nothing more than other computers running Bitcoin). Since no one can realistically prevent a computer from getting Internet access one way or another, no one can regulate or block transactions (eg. oppressive governments financially repressing activists.)
Finally, there is no financial institution, or bank, or company, operating Bitcoin, just like there is no company in charge of "operating gold". There is no Internet server to shut down to terminate Bitcoin. It exists merely as an application running on your computer, which communicates with other Bitcoin users over the Internet. This "mesh" Bitcoin network is called a peer-to-peer network, and this design makes it effectively indestructible, as long as the medium of communication (Internet) exists."

OtherSideOfTheCoin
After all with billions invested in America plc they have every right to make moves to ensure they get a return on their investment

Not to be a prick, but they have been getting a hell of a sweet return on their investment for some time now. That return comes in two primary forms:
1. Americans continue to pay top dollar for cheaply made asian crap that the US allows into the country completely free of tariffs.
2. We have never jammed a thermonuclear device up their ass and told them to "deal with it."

There is currently a bump in the road... if China and/or Japan wish to escalate that bump into a hill or a mountain, then that's fine. They just need to be aware that the average citizen of this country will NOT accept any Greece-like mandates or devistation decrees just so the foreign bondholders can get their payments. The USA is absolutely a deadbeat nation on the personal finance level, which is proven in the number of bankruptcies, collection cases, and even federal handout recipients. Unfortunately for the powers that be, we're also still a significantly well armed nation because their efforts to disarm us before robbing us blind failed. That will equal a whole lot of trouble ahead, but it also will likely mean austerity measures openly intended to ensure payments to foreign bondholders will not fly in the US.

reply to post by xuenchen


There is NO WAY it will be allowed to happen, as it will cause a global economic catastrophe. The president can override congress and restart the government for national security if nothing else. I am sure he will do this. And the only people to complain will be the tea party.

Like pappy always said," a bankrupt Mmerica a happy Mmerica, we riding this here wagon till the wheels fall off".

openminded2011
reply to post by xuenchen

 

There is NO WAY it will be allowed to happen, as it will cause a global economic catastrophe. The president can override congress and restart the government for national security if nothing else. I am sure he will do this. And the only people to complain will be the tea party.

I am surprised he has not done that already. Just declare martial law and get rid of Congress all together, won't bother me none. These guys all need thrown out on their tush. Good riddance.

The Bot

reply to post by dlbott


They need thrown out, but not that way. If the Military steps in like Martial law, Obama will be going WITH Congress out the door, not directing it to happen. I have no question in my mind that if the Military came to be in that position, it would be all the way....but the odds of even getting there are like lightning hitting the same spot to a schedule.

It's an artificial problem, created by the Rothschild syndicate and their banking system, in collusion with corrupt sovereign governments. China and Japan need to speak with the Rothschild family, they've got gold. America only has worthless green paper.

Maybe the real conspiracy is that they are actually causing a default on purpose.

I believe a shutdown would not be permanent, and the government would make a late loan payment. I also believe that the dollar would likely recover at least some of it's value.

Don't get me wrong. I do not actually want the government to shutdown or default, because of how others would be impacted. However, I see the potential that a default would drastically improve my personal economic future. The simple explanation is that I have a ton of yuan, and I won't hesitate to buy dollars. I also have a ton of yen, but need yen for my lifestyle, and probably won't think about dumping a lot of it.

I believe it's possible that politicians and their handlers are also holding onto a lot of yuan and/or yen. I can see another reason for defaulting, besides profiteering. If enough investors risk trading their yuan for dollars, it would likely cause the economy of China to weaken.

I had thought this might be the plan for some time now. Did anyone really think the US is going to pay back the $17 Trillion? If so I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. It's even a better deal than US treasuries. The US is resource rich enough to re-establish its currency in short time to a less valuable standing but still stable enough position and the devaluation will help those resource exports, domestic competitiveness of American goods and exports of those goods produced greatly. The US can survive without the latest entertainment device or gadget in the short term but people around the world will still need the food America produces from its farm industry that it has gone to great lengths to protect as well as other basic resources that are about needs rather than wants.

It's resources that have always been the true value in the world as unlike the production of consumer goods they can't be outsourced or taken without payment unless there is significant corruption in government (yes even beyond that in the US gov) or military force against those who possess them. If this does actually happen it is an aggressive move by the US but the plan only works while the US holds a military advantage and I could understand why it would be enacted sooner than later given Chinese military development of late.

Sovaka
reply to post by OrphanApology

 

This site sums up completely who owns U.S. debt;
finance.townhall.com...

Look at that, the majority being own by U.S. Citizens and Corporations.

edit on 7/10/2013 by Sovaka because: (no reason given)

As you point out, there's no reason for a technical default on the US's foreign debt holders, so much easier to default on domestic debt holders through legislation.

Any default on foreign debt holders, if it happens., would be a deliberate choice.

May I change the opening post?
I just remember a few months back, there was already clear that the USA will have a problem in near future.

US warn EU on default


It sounds like the USA are getting restless and nervous about the EU debt problem.

Looks like they want *Their* interests to supersede *OUR* interests.

Hmmm.

Maybe it's high time *WE* place *OUR* interests in the #1 position for a change !!!!

Who are *THEY* to dictate EU interests.