The Mysterious Mandaeans

reply to post by abeverage


Certainly in the Near East the Holy Spirit was feminine, but then again when Ruha is finally reconciled with the light continuum she would be undertand as masculine, but that's metaphysics for you, it was the same with Ishtar, masculine and feminine aspects and plenty of cult followers who were in-betweeners.

If by "gender" is meant grammatical gender, the gender of "Holy Spirit" varies according to the language used. Thus the grammatical gender of the word "spirit" is masculine in Latin ("spiritus") and in Latin-derived languages, as also, for instance, in the German language ("Geist"), while in the Semitic languages such as Hebrew ("רוח"), Aramaic and its descendant Syriac, it is feminine, and in Greek it is neuter ("πνεῦμα"). If speakers of a particular language were to confuse grammatical gender with physical gender, they might then think of the Holy Spirit as male, female or of neither sex, but such confusion does not of course affect the reality of the gender or lack of gender of the Spirit.

Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit can be understood as the Mistress of Adonai


Certainly the Mandaeans had the most involved Theology of what was involved with all this, in essence Ruha brings together aspects of the Underworld and Celestial realms within the Earthly.

There was a supposed entrance into the underworld passageway in Mandaean legend with regards to the Mountain of the Maddai and also this lead to the Celestial realm.

Kantzveldt


Whilst John the Baptist is recognised as being a Nasurai or Nazorean, a Mandaean Holy person, he certainly isn't seen as a founder of the religion in any resepct, Jesus is also seen as a heretical Nasurai.

You say "Jesus was also seen as a heretical Nasurai". What does "also" mean? That John was also seen as heretical to some degree?

reply to post by Logarock



No sorry for any confusion, that was to say Jesus was also seen as a Nasurai like John, albeit an heretical one.

Kantzveldt
reply to post by Logarock

 

No sorry for any confusion, that was to say Jesus was also seen as a Nasurai like John, albeit an heretical one.

I don't suppose you would know, it may be obscure, but if they hold John as not heretical then how do they reconcile Johns statements and opinion about Jesus?

reply to post by Logarock


There appears to have been recently translated a Mandaean book The Teaching of John, looking at the chapter with regards to John baptizing Jesus;

You, John, baptize me with your baptism
In the name that you pronounce, pronounce upon me.
If I become a disciple,
I will mention myself in my written decree.
If I do not become a disciple,
Erase my name from your scroll.
You will be held responsible for your sin
And I will be held responsible for my sin.”

When Jesus Christ said these things,
A letter came to John from the House of Abatur:
“Baptize the deceiver in the Jordan.
Bring him down into the Jordan.
Baptize him, do not be grieved.”

He brought him back up to the shore.
Spirit took the form of a dove.
She made a cross in the Jordan
and she lifted up the waters in colors,
and said to the Jordan,
“You defile me and you defile my seven sons.”

The Jordan in which Christ the deceiver is praised
is turned into a gutter.
The communion bread which Christ the deceiver takes
is made infernal.
The communion wine which Christ the deceiver takes
is turned into a sacrifice.
The turban which Christ the deceiver takes
is made into Jewish priesthood.
The staff which Christ the deceiver takes
is made sickly.

The tradition there then seems to be that the baptism was in some way cursed.

reply to post by Kantzveldt


I admit I dont know much about religion, but why was Jesus asking to be a disciple of John, wasnt it the other way around? And who wrote the letter to John, would it be assumed that the writer of that letter did not care of Jesus, or is it saying Jesus objectively was a deceiver and not the Messiah, or is it metaphorically saying that when a man is baptized in the name of Christ, (those things aforementioned about bad bread and bad wine etc.) will show that persons true spirit? Like they can join the club and be apart of the religious family and go through with the motions, but their true nature will show by their works...idk just an impression I got upon reading, like the river will turn to a gutter can broadly mean they will be messy and unclean and pollute their areas and possibly themselves, idk about the bread being infernal, but maybe the wine being sacrifice drinking in abundance? dont know about the turban and jewish priesthood but maybe the people writing that hated the jews... and the staff becomes sickly im not sure, could be a reference to a leader a bad leader, or the body...idk. Oh staff which christ takes becomes sickly, could mean the staff of religion, like passing the baton, he becomes the central figure and leader, and either by his doing and fault he taints the message. And then there was bad that came of this, like war, false message and ideas, and corruption of the religion etc.

Sorry I am not more with it with this thread, I just skimmed through the first page a bit and saw this recent post, so I dont know the connections and path taken to arrive here, but I love trying to analyze ancient texts (at an armchair level).



Also interesting to note about the first part, Jesus says something along the lines of 'If I become a disciple I will mention myself in my written decree"... Thats very interesting because, what is he talking about becoming a disciple of, God? the Christianity that hasent even been created yet? And as far as I know Jesus didnt have a written decree, so does that mean he didnt become a disciple? Or is that the kind of tautological logic and perhaps false writings to attempt to slander Jesus, a certain sect of this religion, and this topic in general?

reply to post by ImaFungi



Their doctrines are very hard to understand, the Jordan was understood as penetrating and defiling Ruha anyway, as the spirit of Earth, and the seven planets, in that it represented the pure light from above illuminating the darkness, i can only postulate that the mixing of the pure waters with a doctrine incorporative of Ruha muddied those waters as it were, diminished the purity of the bread and wine, weakened the staff.

Whilst for Christians the Holy Spirit is seen as entirely positive as it appears above Jesus at baptism, for Mandaeans the Holy Spirit was seen as ambivalent at best as i mentioned, and that would be the doctrinal difference, though as i also noted there is a case for end time redemption of the Holy Spirit in Mandaeanism anyway.

reply to post by Kantzveldt


Sorry I asked but am not surprised by a recently translated scroll. Even a neutral researcher can see that this text is extremely contradictory to the written record of Jesus own disciples, one of them being a former disciple of John. So it ends up being another at odds hashing and as one said gnostic.

dp