The Fallacy of Collectivism - Ludwig von Mises

greencmp
Well said, a simple example of the best features of humanity that occurs only in an unstructured and unplanned society.

Down's is one of the better/best features of humanity?

Pejeu
Banking is by definition fractional reserve banking.

If it's not fractional reserve it ain't banking.

Liar.

Full Reserve Banking

Banks are able to offer all sorts of deposit options. The two primary ones individuals are used to interacting with are...

On Demand: The bank is claiming to have the money on hand for you to withdraw at any moment's notice. They will not invest, loan, or move this money. The customer does not expect any interest payments, only the full confidence they can withdraw on demand.

Timed Deposit: They bank has made it clear they will invest this money, so the customer can not expect to withdraw anytime they wish. They are compensated by being offered interest/dividends if the investments pay out. The customer makes this choice willingly.

Fractional Reserve Lending is another activity a bank can CHOOSE to participate in... most do now... but is not required in order to operate as a bank.

Pejeu
Down's is one of the better/best features of humanity?

You are?

BardingTheBard
Nowhere did you ask if I would force a spouse to carry any child against her wishes. The answer is no.

Indeed. That dimension to the question occurred to me soon after I'd already asked the question and I assumed it occurred to you as well.

I was wrong to assume the same mental agility from another.

Pejeu
I was wrong to assume the same mental agility from another.

I do thank you greatly.

You've worked wonders for helping to educate the audience observing this exchange.

/hug and best to you.

BardingTheBard
Liar.

Hardly. I just choose to define as banking all that is fractional reserve banking or has the ability or even potential to conceivably carry it out in secret.

I do not trust the banks not to be creative with their accounting, as you do.

I want them to choose between either lending, on the one side, and money warehousing and payment intermediation/wiring on the other.

By separating the two sides of banking you ensure it can never occur again, not even in secret.

You seem somehow content to trust the banks not to cook the books while allowing them to conceivably retain the ability to continue perpetrating FRB, in secret.

BardingTheBard

Pejeu
Down's is one of the better/best features of humanity?

You are?

What?

You are not making sense.

How can I be a feature of humanity?

Do I occur in multiple instances of people?

Are there enough Pejeus on the Earth to fill a country somewhere?

A city?

A town?

Pejeu

greencmp
Well said, a simple example of the best features of humanity that occurs only in an unstructured and unplanned society.

Down's is one of the better/best features of humanity?

Not murdering them is.

Abortion is murder?

But we're digressing again. This thread is not about abortion.

Pejeu
Abortion is murder?

But we're digressing again. This thread is not about abortion.

edit on 2013/10/18 by Pejeu because: (no reason given)

No, abortion is relevant to the conversation as it is an otherwise personal decision that is commandeered by the state in a totalitarian regime like collectivism. Much like Ceaușescu's mandatory 5 child minimum, it represents an attempt to plan every aspect of a society when it is mandated through population control or eugenics.

BardingTheBard

Bluesma
I am not sure freedom of the individual is something a government needs to "give" you... I suspect it might, in most cases, be yours already.

That is the fundamental principle of the US Bill of Rights... and what separated it from everything else at the time. And more or less still does to this day.

So it is sort of....useless, because everyone has that whether a bill of rights exists in their country or not.

But I guess some people need a little reminder- it might be good for that at least.
"You can do what you want, leave when you want, go after your happiness whenever you want."
Some peoples tend to take some things for granted.

Bluesma

BardingTheBard

Bluesma
I am not sure freedom of the individual is something a government needs to "give" you... I suspect it might, in most cases, be yours already.

That is the fundamental principle of the US Bill of Rights... and what separated it from everything else at the time. And more or less still does to this day.

So it is sort of....useless, because everyone has that whether a bill of rights exists in their country or not.

But I guess some people need a little reminder- it might be good for that at least.
"You can do what you want, leave when you want, go after your happiness whenever you want."
Some peoples tend to take some things for granted.

There is no other constitution or bill of rights that presumes that individuals have preexisting rights sans government of any kind and that no rights of any kind are afforded individuals by government. No other system clearly states that the responsibilities of the voluntarily created federation exists at the expressed consent of the governed.

BardingTheBard
Now to add:

Libertarians and the like are NOT opposed to voluntarily joined and operated social networks, social support systems, etc.

Once you are an adult (except in some very rare and extreme examples, like N. Korea) than wherever you are, you CHOOSE to be there and are voluntary.

Bluesma

BardingTheBard
Now to add:

Libertarians and the like are NOT opposed to voluntarily joined and operated social networks, social support systems, etc.

Once you are an adult (except in some very rare and extreme examples, like N. Korea) than wherever you are, you CHOOSE to be there and are voluntary.

You are assuming that the corrective action is expatriation. We assume that the corrective active is nullification of government itself.

Bluesma
So it is sort of....useless, because everyone has that whether a bill of rights exists in their country or not.

But I guess some people need a little reminder- it might be good for that at least.
"You can do what you want, leave when you want, go after your happiness whenever you want."
Some peoples tend to take some things for granted.

Governments operate on documented boundaries.

That's why it needs to be documented because the government itself *requires* things to be documented so that all can see where the boundaries are.

Fundamentally, the document doesn't mean anything to people themselves. The rights are there and true whether there is a government in operation or not.

It is only when needing to prove that a government has overstepped its stated definitions of operation that the document comes into play. Without the document, there is no way to prove that the government has violated any boundary and to take action accordingly.

It's a contract the people are making with the government in allowing it to exist and operate. "These are the conditions of your employment when taking on these responsibilities".

If there is no document, there is no way to demonstrate that any violation has occurred. If it doesn't come FROM the people TO the government, then it is the government itself that can add/remove as it sees fit rather than being held accountable in "court".

BardingTheBard
Libertarians and the like are NOT opposed to voluntarily joined and operated social networks, social support systems, etc.

Bluesma
Once you are an adult (except in some very rare and extreme examples, like N. Korea) than wherever you are, you CHOOSE to be there and are voluntary.

There is nowhere on this planet for me to go and not live under the authority of a government or international finance system.

I am a prisoner on this planet right now and have nowhere to go to build a community with like minded people free from outside interference. Nowhere that someone doesn't claim the right with threat of violence and imprisonment to eject me from that location at least. Any time I am left to be there is just because it isn't worth their effort yet.

Most places using a currency of my own choosing is illegal.

While yes I choose to be where I am... it doesn't mean I actually have any viable options to pursue what I believe is the best path. This is because the collectivist principle in control right now requires *all* to participate or be eradicated (quickly or slowly).

Let me put it another way: Imagine if the entire world was Communist and there was nowhere for someone to go create a Socialist community.

It's the same situation now for libertarians.

greencmp

Bluesma

BardingTheBard
Now to add:

Libertarians and the like are NOT opposed to voluntarily joined and operated social networks, social support systems, etc.

Once you are an adult (except in some very rare and extreme examples, like N. Korea) than wherever you are, you CHOOSE to be there and are voluntary.

You are assuming that the corrective action is expatriation. We assume that the corrective active is nullification of government itself.

Ah, then you misunderstood my original statement-

There are many sorts of societies in the world, the individual chooses the one that suits him/her best.
That is the innate, and pre-existent freedom of the individual in this world.
Many people like living in one that gives much motivation for those who are not in sync to get up and follow their heart.....

Pejeu
I do not trust the banks not to be creative with their accounting, as you do.

No... you trust the state.

Because *that's* worked out so well for people through history.

Pejeu
I do not trust the banks not to be creative with their accounting, as you do.

I don't trust banks anymore than I trust corporations or states or my uncle I lend $100 to.

Pejeu
I want them to choose between either lending, on the one side, and money warehousing and payment intermediation/wiring on the other.

I'm in quite the agreement.

That said... the same effect is reached by having the different types of deposit accounts and doing frequent and open audits.

Pejeu
By separating the two sides of banking you ensure it can never occur again, not even in secret.

Not true. Any bank can cook its books even if it's just a warehouse. Storage facilities to this day do steal their customer's goods. They just don't stay in business very long.

The only protection is frequent and open audits. Regardless of whether the bank allows both On Demand and Timed deposits, or just On Demand. There are plenty of banks that were nothing more than storage facilities spending the money in their vaults for personal gain and being caught with their pants down.

It's interesting you suddenly would trust a bank just because it calls itself a storage facility. You can never trust a bank no more than you can trust every family member to pay you back if you give them money.

Customers have to do their due diligence on whether to choose to put their money in a storage facility versus under their mattress. That will be true always. Forever. Separating them doesn't fix anything. It does make it easier to audit though, which is why I agree with separation.

Pejeu
You seem somehow content to trust the banks not to cook the books while allowing them to conceivably retain the ability to continue perpetrating FRB, in secret.

I'm content to let customers make their choices and to let honest banks survive while dishonest banks fail. It's the ability to be bailed out by the state that leaves it viable to cook books and get away with it.

There are tons of banks historically that operated honestly and never had problems. It was only when a bank was able to take on the risk without paying the price that the creature rises again.

Pejeu
...you ensure it can never occur again, not even in secret.

You can NEVER EVER ensure something will never occur again. ESPECIALLY in secret.

This is the core fallacy of almost anyone trying to use the state to solve what are ultimately personal responsibilities.

The moment you think you've made it impossible for someone to cheat you and you rest safe in the comfort of the system... someone smarter comes along and robs you blind.

BardingTheBard

There is nowhere on this planet for me to go and not live under the authority of a government or international finance system.

There is no country that corresponds to your preferences??? Really?

I have trouble understanding.. but I am willing to chalk that up to two glasses of wine with dinner, which is not usual for me.

No country is perfect for you then.... are you sure? I mean, I didn't know how other countries were until I tried... and was surpised to find that some did.
Well, I am sorry to hear that, it is really too bad.

greencmp
There is no other constitution or bill of rights that presumes that individuals have preexisting rights sans government of any kind and that no rights of any kind are afforded individuals by government. No other system clearly states that the responsibilities of the voluntarily created federation exists at the expressed consent of the governed.

Rights are just social conventions. And they don't guarantee anything.

They are just a vow on the government's part to try and prosecute who is ostensibly the party guilty of infringing your rights.

People have both a humanitarian and a civil right to life.

Yet people are murdered every day.

It's not even a certainty that the party guilty of infringing your rights will be caught and indicted, let alone prosecuted and punished.

See the banking system you love so much.

Bluesma

greencmp

Bluesma

BardingTheBard
Now to add:

Libertarians and the like are NOT opposed to voluntarily joined and operated social networks, social support systems, etc.

Once you are an adult (except in some very rare and extreme examples, like N. Korea) than wherever you are, you CHOOSE to be there and are voluntary.

You are assuming that the corrective action is expatriation. We assume that the corrective active is nullification of government itself.

Ah, then you misunderstood my original statement-

There are many sorts of societies in the world, the individual chooses the one that suits him/her best.
That is the innate, and pre-existent freedom of the individual in this world.
Many people like living in one that gives much motivation for those who are not in sync to get up and follow their heart.....

Hmm, not sure how else to describe the US constitution to you.

It is not that individuals are free to choose which government will preside over them. Rather, we are duty bound to cancel the government which we created if it violates the parameters which we specified in its creation and reinstate one that does not exceed the confines of those same limited responsibilities.