Hundreds of refugees feared dead off Lampedusa

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I'll reply here instead
First off though, I will say that I do enjoy your posts, even if I tend to disagree at a fundamental level, it's all about the happy medium between two opposed views after all. There's not many people on here I will take the time to reread a post of but yours I generally do.

I've got two points.

Firstly, the way you are going on, it sounds like the west has been actively trying to sort out the 3rd world throughout our history. It hasn't, it really hasn't and we all know it. We patch up problems, send over a little aid or blood money when its on the news and we are feeling guilty, but we don't sort their countries out.

Part of it is the hard nature of reality, part of it is payback for their refusing the benevolent yoke of imperial oppression and part of it is because, looking into the future, it is ABSOLUTELY in our interests to have a completely destitute and undeveloped continent on our doorstep, the Central African Republic for instance is sitting on one of the largest deposits of rare earth elements in the world - which we can buy for penny's on the dollar, an even better example is the Tantalum from the Congo, only found in a few places around the world, essential for all mobile phones - bought off slave using warlords for penny's on the dollar: www.enoughproject.org...
And that's just a few nations in Africa.

If we were serious about developing the 3rd world we would have made some efforts to do so, instead the main effort and legacy of the West in the 20th Century was the support of the Apartheid Government in South Africa - so you'll forgive me if I'm a little skeptical about our good intentions in the region. I really can't see how we in he west can expect those in Africa NOT to want to come over here - in some nations there is NO hope whatsoever of things ever being sorted out - some of the reasons are domestic - but some are caused by us and it's absurd to deny responsibility.

When you say "... the "New Normal" of finding natural balance to the new influx isn't pretty for the people who STARTED in the better standard of life." you are stating that you're unprepared to lower your standard of living EVEN if i meant greater equality for people around the world -I find that worrying in the extreme, because it means there is no hope for us ever. It is the demand for cheap goods and services in the West that keeps 3rd world nations poor.

Unless we are willing to lower our standard of living to improve that of the rest of the world we will always have an immigration problem, it's the only solution. Now that doesn't mean we need to let everyone into our country - but it does mean we might need to pay a sensible price for our coffee, chocolate, mobile phones, etc, etc ,etc - sadly, if the last 70 years are any indication - we are unwilling to do so.

reply to post by MaxSteiner

Now it's hard to debate the point when we're starting from very different bases of fact, right out the gate. The United States, to speak only for my own nation, has given and given and given till it's bled us dry in some ways, to help the 3rd world.

Now I prefer the Excel spreadsheet version of this. It's far easier to read, in my opinion...but then, I'm a data junkie, as one person recently called it and only half joking when he said it.

U.S. Overseas Loans and Grants: Obligations and Loan Authorizations, July 1, 1945–September 30, 2011 (Page with PDF Version link)

Anyone who has ever wondered how many 10's of millions to billions has gone to which region and then, specific nation from one year to the next since World War II can see it there.

It'll be one hell of a hole left when the US finally hits the point of turning off every last dollar to every nation ..which accounts for most of the world getting some form of aid right now. From Military (Blatant manipulation) to food, HIV/AIDS and Malaria mitigation which is not so clearly dual purpose or laden with ulterior motives.

We're starting on two different world views entirely to suggest Western powers and the US in particular aren't already giving to the levels it can help....when the recipient nations and economic levels there are taken into account.

It isn't theoretically possible for Europe to help the rest of the world in any meaningful way via immigration or any other method regardless of its intentions to do so. The EU accounts for about 7% of the global population and has very few natural resources compared to many other regions. Geographically the EU is about 1/7th the size of Africa (EU - 4,324,782 sq km, Africa - 30,221,532 sq km ), has about half the population and many times less population growth. The idea Europe can make a meaningful difference is largely a result of colonial attitudes from back in the days when Europe was a much larger percentage of global population and wealth.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Well I doubt either of us expects to convert the other one

I do question the aid thing though - seems to me that if the Fed can create $85 billion a month for quantitative easing the amount of aid given world wide (by all nations) appears utterly insignificant.
(Never mind the fact that if you view US aid as a percentage of GDP it looks a lot less impressive...)

~But you've effectively made my point for me - propping up nations doesn't work. So lets try something else.

reply to post by MaxSteiner


Yes, immigrants are cowards. They would rather run and work somewhere else so they don't need to face the problems their own country faces. It's easy to just "let it slide" when you know your family is being fed. I can guarantee you that should the money in the U.S. dry up for them, that they'd be more volatile in their own nation. Something that is desperately needed to force change. All that's happening is a very few work hard, send that money to their family while the rest of the country is suffering.

Secondly, why do you think America was the first to industrialize? Do you think we would have had the same success should the British kept control? If we did, England would be reaping the rewards, not those who shed their blood and sweat to get it and the American people would probably not have had a much better life than those in Mexico. **Edit** My point with this is that you have to fight and work hard to make a better country for not only yourselves, but for your countrymen. Mexico (and other countries) need to face their own version of the "red coats" and fight to make their home a place worth living.

But we're not discussing America here now are we? At least your thread starts out discussing dead refugees off the coast of Italy, in Europe. It's a totally different scene in Europe than in the United States and a wider "reason" why they immigrate. For example, in Norway they immigrate because of the rather lush benefits they receive. Like free (as in paid by the hard working Norwegian tax payers) money, housing, cars and drivers license that is so expensive not many Norwegians can afford it. (We're talking over 5000 dollars US for a regular drivers license). In fact, many immigrants are living better than the Norwegians.

They know this, so they come to Norway legally and become illegal immigrants as they destroy their passport. Norway cannot throw out any immigrants until they're processed. And that becomes so much more difficult when they refuse to tell you where they come from and who they are. So they're "stuck" in Norway with free health care, money for food and clothing, free housing and as mentioned above, free licenses. How they're a "credit" to anyone is beyond me.

But let's talk about the crime illegal immigrants, heck, even legal immigrants bring into both the Americas and Europe. I shared a personal story about my uncle who was side swiped by a truck driving far above the speed limit. It crushed his hips. Needless to say, he's no longer walking. What I didn't feel pertinent to the discussion was revealing exactly who was driving. But I'll reveal that now, it was an illegal immigrant from Mexico who had neither insurance or a license.

And the bare bones, "bottom of the matter" truth is if America would have done the right thing in the beginning by ensuring American borders my uncle would still be walking today. But alas, he's not and lives in constant pain despite taking a plethora of pretty little pills like valium and plenty of morphine.

In Europe, there's a crime spree going on. Primarily rapes and murders. Not too long ago in Sweden, a sixteen year old girl was raped by six non-western immigrants. Locally, a woman in her eighties was beaten, robbed, and raped by an African man. Than you have a man from Afghanistan in Oslo who beats up young girls/women to rob them. He cut one such girl on the mouth, much like the Joker scar. (Glasgow smile.)

The crime rates for each year in Norway and surrounding countries are rising. And you have to understand, these Scandinavian countries could compare to a 50's suburbia where crime was virtually non-existent. Not saying crime didn't happen, just very few and far between and would be head line news for weeks if not months. Unlike now, where it's not even mentioned.

More than often, news papers will leave out the ethnicity of the criminals. Like my friend who was robbed at knife point by two African immigrants on his way to town. The newspaper only mentioned "A man in his late 20's robbed by knife point". They do this because I can guarantee you that if Norwegians truly knew just how much crime immigration brought, they'd be crying out for politicians blood.

Same within the United States. But it's felt more in Europe because Europe can be compared to a small pond. Throw a rock in a small pond and the ripples seem bigger. America, like a vast ocean will hardly ripple when you throw a rock in it.

If American's knew, there would be hell to pay.

reply to post by MaxSteiner


I think on amounts, it's a question of too much doing more harm than good ..and is happening, actually. Giving until it hurts has a downside of corrupting the recipients. It's like chronically starved people first being treated. If you hand them a big fat chocolate cake? You may literally kill them by it. Odd...contrary to what one may think...but there ya go. Only what the system can handle.


Now I could scream about how the money is spent and that is a travesty. An example I read about was the effort by USAID at one point to look into Potable water to remote and isolated African villages. Well, what would you or I do? We'd probably look for self contained, easily maintained and nearly unbreakable solutions...given the recipients. KISS should rule the day from start to finish. As I recall it, they were into over a billion dollars of planning per frigging village by the time someone said 'knock it off...don't kill them with kindness'.

See, for the Government? Water had to bring treatment equipment going in and of course, sewage for treatment going ..ahem..out .. with piping to take all that away from the immediate living areas. After all, Uncle must have figuratively asked himself, how can we not do all this? We're civilized people!

.....see much done for potable water in rural Africa? Yeah.. me neither. KISS would have worked too...for a million or less per village to just give the people a well dug, a pump to draw clean and fresh water from and a design even a bumbling fool couldn't break. Enough of them in place, and the Government troops or rebels of the various nations would stop stealing them after installation, too.

That would actually help for the dollars...and a fraction of what we spend. it's just hard to say the spending isn't there and to know people in that 'do-gooder' side of life, I can say the intent on the ground level is sure there too for 90% of it. Just......oh, management is something Government can never get.

What is being left out of the discussion is the nations who in today's world actually have or will have the ability to change the world. Unless you are living in the 19th century that isn't Europe, it's the Asian giants like China who alone accounts for 19% of global population and surrounding nations like Japan who actually needs more immigration because they have almost none and an ageing population. China I believe is doing much to help Africa but even more to help themselves. If Africa is to help itself they need to stop allowing people to exploit them and they are the only ones who really care enough to do this.

This goes for every nation and may sound harsh but don't count on people helping you beyond what they can gain in the best deal they can work out for themselves. It takes generations of sacrifice to build a developed nation and a huge part of it is standing up to people who will exploit you for their own gain. Even developed nations are still fighting this never ending battle. In fact I think the west has been losing the battle in recent decades and the economic decline and the debt problems faced in EU nations and to a much lesser extent in the US are a direct result of this.

reply to post by Auricom


Sorry I don't even know what you're on about with most of that post, first off, I'm not an American - you might be able to tell from my use of correct spelling Second, the UK was the first to industrialise as far as I'm aware, it then spread throughout those countries rich enough to invest (so the west). Of course that only really happened in the North of the US, as the south was busy making use of slave labour - the oldest form of industrialisation. Your point about Mexico is spot on though, once you're economy has been co opted for the benefit of your rich industrialised neighbor there's no escape.

Anyway, back to your post. The US is founded by immigrants. So in your own words the founding fathers are cowards. These despicable cowards fleeing religious persecution or famine or poverty for a new life in a huge, mostly empty continent full of natural resources and enough food to feed the world many times over. These cowards then go on to drag down the high standard of living for the native Americans and... Oh wait - I see where you're coming from now - you don't want it happening again

That is literally all I got from it.

Genuinely sorry to hear about your dad though, we have that problem over here too, but truckers aren't actually immigrants - they tend to be shipping loads across countries - so you could have the strictest immigration policy in the world and your father could still have been in that accident.

That crime is carried out by poor people is not the revelation you make it out to be. That Norway has a social program is admirable - but you'd be complaining about it going to poor white people if you weren't so outraged about it going to immigrants. As a member of the EU you have to abide by the convention of human rights - we all signed it and (other than my own cowardly government in the UK) we all have to try and live with it.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I quickly scanned that and was thinking, how's Gene Simmons going to help the Africans - then I realised

I agree 100% there (so have a star from my limitless supply), we haven't come all that far from the days of trickle down economics really have we? The money gets given out, but there's no expectation of it providing results. That's I think private enterprise will have an increasingly busy role in this, for example there's a foundation run by Bill Gate's wife for instance developing hygenic toilets that would actually work in the third world (because chemical toilets or the flush system we use here are completely impractical over there) - up till a few years ago noones bothered to look into it - but that simple step will do more to stop the spread of disease than billions handed out willy nilly.

reply to post by MaxSteiner


Indeed... A little common sense applied from all directions ...where no one is trying to make money or trap the people being helped in generations of debt ...and so many of the 'impossible problems' are quite possible to solve or at least dramatically improve, huh?

It's funny to consider but how many solutions available in a well stocked Cabella's store or Bass Pro (..and I mean the cheap stuff, not the fancy 'thousand ways to break it' or 'batteries required' stuff) would radically change the quality of life. Like the toilet idea? Trucking has similar things for ..in-truck situations.. and for similar reasons, the obvious just doesn't work well at 70mph, bouncing down the highway.. (team truck of course ..lol)

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Ugh, I've never considered truck toilets before, thats a horrible image!

But you are totally right - those water purification straws for instance, why doesn't the company set up a factory in a country where they would be most needed and seek government funding to sell them at a price the population could afford - it'd be far more sensible and helpful than sending them over by the plane load.

TrueBrit
reply to post by badgerprints

 

If you saw a policeman ignoring a mugger, as they were mid way through beating an old woman for her pension money, would you help the victim, or walk on, muttering about the state of policing in this day and age?

The two scenarios are no different, and the correct response to them is similar. You do what you can for your fellow human beings, or you cease to be one yourself.

If I saw a boatload of muggers headed for my coast and the boat sank because it had too many muggers in it then I'd want to know why there were so many muggers where that boat came from. I'd have to assume there was nothing left to steal in their original port of call and be glad they didn't end up in my neighborhood.

I might feel the same about a boatload of police in this day and age.

I think a boatload of bleeding hearts who feel criminal invasion is good thing might evoke the same response.

By the way, the majority of my fellow human beings have become a load of thieving parasites in recent years and they are running out of hard working people who provide for themselves to steal from.

I don't see them as human but as predators because they have come to see me as prey.

The UN is at the forefront of legislated predation and it encourages those from failed and corrupt nations to invade, bleed dry and corrupt the nations that have some semblance of order left.

If I've ceased to be a human being then maybe I can see the lack of logic in sacrificing the safety and future of your family and friends so that you can feel like a human being.

Of course, other humans are relying on your being a good human so that they can take what you have worked for. It's the easiest way for them to live.

They won't find us pesky non-humans so easy to screw over.

reply to post by badgerprints


Except in this situation the muggers have come from the 2nd most resource rich continent on earth after Asia and have either been forced out by a more aggressive mugger or somehow convinced they aren't sitting on a gold mine both literally and figuratively. I don't believe these people on the boat were from Libya originally but in terms of oil per capita there are few nations richer than Libya with its mere 6 million population. Regardless in the future once the African Union gets its problem sorted it has the potential to become a superpower well beyond what Europe or the EU will ever be capable of without its colonies. It's simple math, run the numbers yourself.

Strakha
reply to post by badgerprints

 

Except in this situation the muggers have come from the 2nd most resource rich continent on earth after Asia and have either been forced out by a more aggressive mugger or somehow convinced they aren't sitting on a gold mine both literally and figuratively. I don't believe these people on the boat were from Libya originally but in terms of oil per capita there are few nations richer than Libya with its mere 6 million population. Regardless in the future once the African Union gets its problem sorted it has the potential to become a superpower well beyond what Europe or the EU will ever be capable of without its colonies. It's simple math, run the numbers yourself.

edit on 6-10-2013 by Strakha because: (no reason given)

No argument there.
I didn't say there wasn't anything left to accomplish. Just nothing left to steal.
The problem with lesser muggers is that they are still muggers.

Human0815
reply to post by badgerprints

 

I think that you are wrong, a pregnant Women, a Baby or/ and a Child
are not Thieves who want to steal your Silver!

We can't demand our own Freedom but restrict other People and force
them to risk their Life with dramatic Results!

edit on 5-10-2013 by Human0815 because: spell

edit on 5-10-2013 by Human0815 because: a E!

I agree, however, they are conducting a trojan horse against the free and equal world by bringing in those who do not hold those ideals.

And so, in circumstances where someone is fleeing real violence and oppression, they should be welcomed, and then the UN should bring them to various countries, and rehab and retraining grounds where they would be very limited in their rights. The women trained with massive counseling and education for equal rights and they would be forced to assimulate and monitored, in house, their children automatically suspected of sexual and child abuse, the children retrained, no minotrity schools or religious schools allowed. And not voting for 3 generations, or asking for special rights.

And nothing wrong with asking that the adults coming from fascist nations, or nations that are opposite of the values of a free and democratic equal nation, be fixed.

If any sign of any form of oppression of women and children is occurring, I would keep the woman and send the man back unless it was very oppressive on both sides, in which case would keep the chidlren and send the parents back. It would have to be overseen on individual bases and not by corrupt luciferean leaders, but by panels of grandmothers and real citizens.

reply to post by Unity_99


Your "Ideas" are incompatible with the meaning of Democracy
but i am not surprised about the fascist Views of many here,
for the loudest People here they are just Thieves and Murderers,
People who want "to steal" a piece of the cake named "Freedom",
but that behind each single case a real Human is hiding you do forget!

I need to vomit when i read some contributions here and i need to say
that i am scared about this People, much more scared than i am
about Refugees!

But as long as you can kick the People down from you as long you don't
need to fight the People above you.

Human0815
reply to post by Unity_99

 

i need to say
that i am scared about this People, much more scared than i am
about Refugees!

Why would you need to be concerned about or scared of refugees? Japan has some of the strictest immigration laws not just in the developed world but the world in general. People who live in glass houses...

The link below includes analysis of Japanese, European and Canadian polices. Note the person you quoted was from Canada.

Japan has one of the strictest immigration policies in the world and has historically been closed off to outsiders. It has a foreign population of less than 2% - six times smaller than the percentage of the U.S.

If Japan’s strict immigration policy serves as a cautionary tale and Europe’s experiment is still a work in progress, then take a look at Canada – a nation with more foreign-born per capita than the United States.

globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com...

Refugee population by country or territory of asylum

Japan: 2,649

Canada: 164,883

data.worldbank.org...

reply to post by Strakha


I am a Immigrant from a Country that have more than 25% of Foreigners,
but i was a Refugee too and know the meaning of leaving Home
and i guarantee mostly all of you that a Time will come when you
need to leave your Home too!
(under the age of 25 for sure, when you are older than 50 it is a big ?)

I am really shocked how intolerant some of you are,
"Fascism is not a Opinion but a Crime"!

reply to post by Human0815


Ok. I just thought it was ironic someone from Japan (the location listed in your profile) saying they are scared of refugees considering those figures I posted. As there is no need to be scared of something that is near non-existent in the nation.

Auricom

Wrabbit2000

If people stayed home and worked to FIX IT....we wouldn't have displacement of people by the millions on all but one continent on our planet .

This! Mass immigration isn't working, and it's not helping the poor souls still stuck in the country their coward countrymen left. Instead of risking their lives on the open seas for a potential personal gain, risk your life trying to right the wrongs of your own country.

I'm all for aiding people in need, but I've long since realized that immigration isn't help. It's just a band-aid on a festering wound. I'm rather well traveled, currently I'm living in Scandinavia. In the few years I've been here, I've seen small towns turn into literal hell holes because immigrants flood into them and refuse to adapt and turn these communities into a smaller version of what they left. Malmø in Sweden is an excellent example. Malmø's Muslim Influence

Also, these small European countries do not have the resources to continually take in refugees and immigrants. Doesn't matter how you try to play it off, doesn't matter how politically incorrect you say all this is, it's still the truth.

Instead of relying on a failed immigration plan, let's start working on something that does work. I'd like to see the Western countries set up schools and train police officers in these countries. I'd like to see Euro governments working hard with the governments of the countries we're helping. Give them incentives to help sway them to allow us to help them. This way, we'd be helping create a better future for all of them. Unlike now, where we unfairly pick and choose a very small amount of people to help.

Excellent post!!

Our main concern (and our politicians) should be looking our for what's in OUR best interest.

An invasion of uneducated, barbaric, third worlders is clearly not in our best interest.