Catholic priests in military face arrest for celebrating Mass

buster2010
These people are not in the military they are contract workers so they are subject to the same rules as any other contract worker. And nothing is stopping these people from getting married off base the military doesn't control that guess the usual unnamed source at FOX never thought of that. The usual Obama is against Christians rhetoric is really getting old we wouldn't be hearing half of it if people just did a little research.

The U.S. military has furloughed as many as 50 Catholic chaplains due to the partial suspension of government services, banning them from celebrating weekend Mass. At least one chaplain was told that if he engaged in any ministry activity, he would be subjected to disciplinary action.

If you can show by anything, anywhere, in ANY form ...how this happened 17yrs before (The last shut down) and threats made against members of the Chaplain Corps were made as a result of it? I'll write it off to the mess of standard procedures and another screw up in the ranks.

Otherwise? Given the new regs and laws governing Religious ANYTHING in the Military, including from the Military's own Chaplain Corps, outside of and before shutdown? Given that...and the fact I lived through the last shutdown and don't personally recall anything like this being an issue on any level (Clinton didn't have a problem with Christians)

Obama is one very serious "separation of..." pretty much everything HE deems needs separated. Now I see so clearly it hurts....that isn't a 100% universal and equal attitude toward every Faith in the world. Nope.. Never really has been with this ....President.

I'm wide open to seeing how this did actually happen before though, since we have other shutdowns to compare and the last one was even a member of Obama's same party for mindset. I don't recall it. I could be wrong though.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

Yes off-topic, as I said it's a valid point. Make a thread about it. This thread is about priests wanting to come do it for free and being told they will be arrested if they attempt to have Mass.

Would this by you also be off topic?

fyi I am not Catholic and really dislike the Catholic church

It's all close enough. Bye

reply to post by aboutface


I just hope the people aren't as gullible and as well controlled as they think we are.

I hope we do, think thru this charade and dump this load of orchestrated bull crap right back in their laps.

Wake up! Go out and slam some pots and pans! Make some noise. Wake up family and neighbours. Let them think you are crazy. Soon they will see, believe and understand that what is hitting them on the head, really is the sky.

reply to post by buster2010


You are assuming I am catholic, which I'm not. I am outraged at the stupidity of threatening a priest with arrest and at the nefarious intent this exposes.

Wrabbit2000

buster2010
These people are not in the military they are contract workers so they are subject to the same rules as any other contract worker. And nothing is stopping these people from getting married off base the military doesn't control that guess the usual unnamed source at FOX never thought of that. The usual Obama is against Christians rhetoric is really getting old we wouldn't be hearing half of it if people just did a little research.

The U.S. military has furloughed as many as 50 Catholic chaplains due to the partial suspension of government services, banning them from celebrating weekend Mass. At least one chaplain was told that if he engaged in any ministry activity, he would be subjected to disciplinary action.

If you can show by anything, anywhere, in ANY form ...how this happened 17yrs before (The last shut down) and threats made against members of the Chaplain Corps were made as a result of it? I'll write it off to the mess of standard procedures and another screw up in the ranks.

Otherwise? Given the new regs and laws governing Religious ANYTHING in the Military, including from the Military's own Chaplain Corps, outside of and before shutdown? Given that...and the fact I lived through the last shutdown and don't personally recall anything like this being an issue on any level (Clinton didn't have a problem with Christians)

Obama is one very serious "separation of..." pretty much everything HE deems needs separated. Now I see so clearly it hurts....that isn't a 100% universal and equal attitude toward every Faith in the world. Nope.. Never really has been with this ....President.

I'm wide open to seeing how this did actually happen before though, since we have other shutdowns to compare and the last one was even a member of Obama's same party for mindset. I don't recall it. I could be wrong though.

So a contracted (for money) employe is on furlough along with all other non essential services. Then they offer to forgo pay to offer those services. Request denied. Generally by base commanders in cases of military. Somehow that directly becomes Obama did it, as in he denied it directly. Am I understanding that correctly?

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

Your posts get more and more ridiculous the more you have to justify this.

Actually your is because you are the one that is expecting the government to give special rights to people based on nothing more than religion and just one religion at that. Personally I have no problem with a person wanting to work for free if they want to let them.

The government cannot do this because it would be respecting the establishment of religion.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

If you can show by anything, anywhere, in ANY form ...how this happened 17yrs before (The last shut down) and threats made against members of the Chaplain Corps were made as a result of it? I'll write it off to the mess of standard procedures and another screw up in the ranks.

Because the last shutdown didn't effect military bases. That could have something to do with them not being at war at the time.

United States federal government shutdown of 1995–96

A 2010 Congressional Research Service report summarized other details of the 1995-1996 government shutdowns, indicating the shutdown impacted all sectors of the economy. Health and welfare services for military veterans were curtailed; the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention stopped disease surveillance; new clinical research patients were not accepted at the National Institutes of Health; and toxic waste clean-up work at 609 sites was halted. Other impacts included: the closure of 368 National Park sites resulted in the loss of some seven million visitors; 200,000 applications for passports and 20,000 to 30,000 applications for visas by foreigners went unprocessed each day; U.S. tourism and airline industries incurred millions of dollars in losses; more than 20% of federal contracts, representing $3.7 billion in spending, were affected adversely.

Otherwise? Given the new regs and laws governing Religious ANYTHING in the Military, including from the Military's own Chaplain Corps, outside of and before shutdown? Given that...and the fact I lived through the last shutdown and don't personally recall anything like this being an issue on any level (Clinton didn't have a problem with Christians)

Please show these new regs and laws Obama has passed against Christians in the military.

I'm going to talk to my parish priest about this, he's a Major in the Army Reserves, and if I remember correctly, he's NOT contracted, he is an Army officer, cant furlough officers

buster2010
These people are not in the military they are contract workers so they are subject to the same rules as any other contract worker. And nothing is stopping these people from getting married off base the military doesn't control that guess the usual unnamed source at FOX never thought of that. The usual Obama is against Christians rhetoric is really getting old we wouldn't be hearing half of it if people just did a little research.

Contractors or DoD employees? There is a difference. If they are not getting paid, DoD, contractors are already paid. The public schools are government jobs, contract and they are still going to school along with contractors that work on military posts, unless they close the post down.

reply to post by Merlynn


Chaplains are OFFICERS, not contractors, not DoD employees!!!
www.goarmy.com...

I see, most people, even the media are confused.

There is currently a shortage of Catholic military chaplains. Because of this, many Catholics in the military are being served by what are called contract or GS (government services) priests, rather than active duty military chaplains.

They say contract OR GS, they are probably GS (maybe GS 9-12, depending). GS is DoD, DoD is not contract, they have totally different ID's, benefits, etc.

The site I got above quote:

christianpost.com

HomerinNC
reply to post by Merlynn

 

Chaplains are OFFICERS, not contractors, not DoD employees!!!
www.goarmy.com...

edit on 10/5/2013 by HomerinNC because: (no reason given)

I'm going on what the others were saying. Also on what the news is reporting. I know when I was in they were officers, evidently now some are DoD.

reply to post by Grimpachi

So a contracted (for money) employe is on furlough along with all other non essential services. Then they offer to forgo pay to offer those services. Request denied. Generally by base commanders in cases of military. Somehow that directly becomes Obama did it, as in he denied it directly. Am I understanding that correctly?

The concept is a simple one ...and NO ONE here has *ANY* problem understanding or applying the standard when Bush is the man it's being applied to.

The concept is that the buck stops somewhere. At SOME point, blame finds a home and can go no further for what happens, is decided and pursued within the executive branch departments. I've never heard debates taking Bush to task, also hedge to say how little he personally controlled as a man. It's a stupid argument there...and it's no more logical or fitting here.


Now, these people can ALL act independent of Obama. Absolutely they can. Obama is a President, not split to be the commander of a thousand different commands at once. HOWEVER.......this is where the buck stops with HIM. Leon Panetta IS his direct employee, and these people threatening Courts Martial ARE HIS direct employees. The chain is clear and while Obama can't jump it, he can damn sure USE it.

Any of these things (and some HAVE BEEN) can be countermanded by Executive Order. He knows how to use Executive order very well at this stage. He's used it in the last week for other things he deemed worth it. He doesn't deem THIS worth it.

That's as simple as it gets and YES... that DOES make it Obama's problem after the problem is known to exist.

Anyone trying to get onto a base without permission will be arrested. Why would it be any different for church people?

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Well, that's what you get when you listen to Fox News all the time.

Did you know that Fox viewers are actually more ignorant of the real facts than the average non-viewer?

I suggest you get a little courage up, and listen to say, PBS NewsHour or hell, get really brave and watch (gasp) MSNBC?

Even CBS (which is right-leaning) is less biased. Try that if you really can't bear to hear the other side.

Why would they make exceptions for some contractors? If you think is going to happen you do not know the military at all. Just like any employer they will not let you work of the clock for liability reasons. That this is some sort of Obama conspiracy is beyong stupid. Whatever happened to critical thinking or common sense? Are people such sheep that as long as it fits in with what they hope is true they will believe anything? Common ATS get it together your better than this.

Hold on...all red skin, blue skin stuff aside, there is another major flaw in the Federal response. By virtue of these priests being contractors, they are independent of the military, so are fully entitled to take on other contacts. The contracts can be from couples getting married or families baptizing their children, funerals, whomever, really. If they are contracted only, then the military can't tell them who else they can or can't work for. They maintain their independence. Thus, they are, as entitled as any other priest to perform/rent out space, however it is done, when services are performed.

The Federal government would have no authority to discriminate against or deny access to any priest simply because he has worked on contract, now or in the past. No employer "owns" independent contractors. The priests should have every right to volunteer to do a wedding on his own time or on another contract and have equal access to military facilities that have traditionally been available to the public or private citizen.

It would seem in this situation, the Federal opinion oversteps its authority.


Thoughts?

DancedWithWolves
Hold on...all red skin, blue skin stuff aside, there is another major flaw in the Federal response. By virtue of these priests being contractors, they are independent of the military, so are fully entitled to take on other contacts. The contracts can be from couples getting married or families baptizing their children, funerals, whomever, really. If they are contracted only, then the military can't tell them who else they can or can't work for. They maintain their independence. Thus, they are, as entitled as any other priest to perform/rent out space, however it is done, when services are performed.

The Federal government would have no authority to discriminate against or deny access to any priest simply because he has worked on contract, now or in the past. No employer "owns" independent contractors. The priests should have every right to volunteer to do a wedding on his own time or on another contract and have equal access to military facilities that have traditionally been available to the public or private citizen.

It would seem in this situation, the Federal opinion oversteps its authority.


Thoughts?

edit on 5-10-2013 by DancedWithWolves because: mobile "issues"

It is a law from 1870. and it says

The Antideficiency Act prohibits federal employees from

making or authorizing an expenditure from, or creating or authorizing an obligation under, any appropriation or fund in excess of the amount available in the appropriation or fund unless authorized by law. 31 U.S.C. § 1341(a)(1)

(A). involving the government in any obligation to pay money before funds have been appropriated for that purpose, unless otherwise allowed by law. 31 U.S.C. § 1341(a)(1)

(B).accepting voluntary services for the United States, or employing personal services not authorized by law, except in cases of emergency involving the safety of human life or the protection of property. 31 U.S.C. § 1342.
making obligations or expenditures in excess of an apportionment or reapportionment, or in excess of the amount permitted by agency regulations. 31 U.S.C. § 1517(a).

Federal employees who violate the Antideficiency Act are subject to two types of sanctions: administrative and penal. Employees may be subject to appropriate administrative discipline including, when circumstances warrant, suspension from duty without pay or removal from office. In addition, employees may also be subject to fines, imprisonment, or both.

reply to post by MrSpad


They aren't employees though. They are independent contractors. And it is not providing services FOR the government. It is them providing contractual services for private individuals. I'm not seeing how that law applies in this situation.

???

DancedWithWolves
reply to post by MrSpad

 

They aren't employees though. They are independent contractors. And it is not providing services FOR the government. It is them providing contractual services for private individuals. I'm not seeing how that law applies in this situation.

???

Their contracts are with and payed for by the federal goverment. That pretty much covers it.