Religious differences: the new great divide

Warning? What are you talking about, Thorfin, I've given you no warning. It's in fashoin to hate Christians, why would I warn you about that? Twisting history or simply making it up is quite cool today, too. I've warned neither you or anyone else in more months than I can count. As a matter of fact, Thorf, I've never warned you and this is nothing new from you. What makes you think I'd start now?

My wife is Religious and I am not. We have Muslim friends, Jewish friends and buddist friends.

You know how we get along? We respect each others beliefs, which is what the Founding Fathers wanted. It does me no harm to hear a prayer before a meal or go to church on Easter. Our friends honor our beliefs when at our house and we honor theres at their house.

I admit the Fundiess are annoying but not near as annoying as a airplane crashing into your business or home.

I to am worried about some of the more shall we say "unstable" members of the religious right but even most of the Christians would not stand for Religious Rule here in America.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter How about you explain to me why you had to have Ocelot give me the warning instead of you doing it yourself?

Um... I clicked the warning button, for this: "I can think of quite a few christians and catholics that need to be killed... " Not appropriate.

I will say it again, the Founders expected it to be a Christian nation, not a multicultural one. I will also say it again, that they did not mean that everyone had to be a Christian. They knew that is impossible aas that is something between God and man, not something that can be forced at the end of a sword or gun barrel.

As far as bringing down buildings, I agree with you. Although, I hear the bringing down of Babe's old home brought about good fortune for the Sox.

Religious Martyrs

* David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page [gem-werc.org...] estimating the number of martyrs since the origin of each religion:
+ Muslim martyrs: 80M
+ Christian martyrs: 70M
# 20th Century: 45.4M
# At the hands of...
* Atheists: 31,689,000
* Muslims 9,121,000
* Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
* Christians: 5,538,000
* Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
* Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
* Hindus: 676,000
* Zoroastrians: 384,000
+ Hindu martyrs: 20M
+ Buddhist martyrs: 10M
+ Jewish: 9M
+ Ethnoreligious: 6M
+ Sikh: 2M
+ Baha'i: 1M
+ Other religious martyrs: 5M

users.erols.com...

Total number of religious martyrs throughout history = 203 million

Religion divides and compells people to conflict with different religions. If religion didn't cause all this conflict I don't think there would be 203 million religious martyrs in the known history of man.

- Attero

[edit on 14-11-2004 by Attero Auctorita]

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
Thanks for the warning, TC. You just proved my point.

How about you explain to me why you had to have Ocelot give me the warning instead of you doing it yourself? And for what may I ask? Bashing? Seems like you would be guilty of that as well, but you're a mod, doesn't mean you have to be honest or have integrity...

Im sorry how did I get introduced into this whole situation?

Originally posted by Ocelot
Im sorry how did I get introduced into this whole situation?

I saw your avatar Ocelot, YOU USED THE FORCE.

BTW, I'm not your father.

Attero Auctorita

there is a very distinct diffrence between christian martyrs and moslem ones.

christian ones are killed by people disagreeing with them

moslem ones kill themselves along with those who disagree

Originally posted by TheRepublic
Attero Auctorita

there is a very distinct diffrence between christian martyrs and moslem ones.

christian ones are killed by people disagreeing with them

moslem ones kill themselves along with those who disagree

Wow, did you get past the Western Press?

Originally posted by intrepid
I saw your avatar Ocelot, YOU USED THE FORCE.

BTW, I'm not your father.

Ahhhh damnit!! That must have been it. Sometimes I use my force powers without realizing it.

what does the western press have to do with it?

Originally posted by TheRepublic
Attero Auctorita

there is a very distinct diffrence between christian martyrs and moslem ones.

christian ones are killed by people disagreeing with them

moslem ones kill themselves along with those who disagree

Well that's interesting and all, you seem to think i'm singling out Christians as the worst.

- Attero

Originally posted by TheRepublic
what does the western press have to do with it?

Originally posted by TheRepublic
Attero Auctorita

there is a very distinct diffrence between christian martyrs and moslem ones.

christian ones are killed by people disagreeing with them

moslem ones kill themselves along with those who disagree

Your quote. You DO know that there is more than 200 countries on the face of the planet?

You only see what is put before you. I deny it.

well i relize the press distorts thing belive me, but all i can comment is what i do see and this is what ive seen.

accounts of martyrs in the bible (not western media)
jesus, or
the stoning of stephen
(please no pot jokes)


and what ive seen first hand
a plane flying into the world trade center (although i saw it on western media)
but i did see the pentagon burning with my own eyes.

I see exactly what DontTreadOnMe is talking about happening right here on the board. We're bickering over whether our beliefs are better that others. "Who so-ever judges others shall be judged also by others". This country was built on tolerance of others beliefs so long as they don't intrude on your rights. Why were we doing it in this past election. You don't see atheist knocking on your door, but you do see some religious groups doing it. Folks, this is a wake-up call to all Americans, we've got to rise above political BS and Religious division and bring constitutional power back to the people as to protect those beliefs. Big media and Big Corporations keep throwing out noise to keep the masses preoccupied while they haul off with our liberties. Think about this, what else went on while we listened to the Peterson case and Fallusia being liberated. Listen to Unfiltered on Air America Radio tomorrow morning for the list of stories that get lost on Friday evenings.

What is interesting is that liberals are perceived as non-christians and weak, and somehow a danger to free society, because they do not want to force their religious belief with laws.

A lot of democrats, liberals, lefties (call them what you want) are religious, go to church, pray to God, believe in Jesus, republicans are not the only religious people in USA.
The difference is, republicans want to see their belief institutionalized as LAW, applicable to ALL who live in USA, regardless of their religious beliefs, while liberals want to keep religious belief a PERSONAL thing, a personal choice.

I think it was Thomas Crowne who mentioned a few posts up that the founding fathers were christians and that they wanted USA to be christian nation. I assume by that he means that laws of the country are based on Bible.
Well, the founding fathers lived a few 100 years ago, when white people butchered natives who then became 2nd class citizens in their own country, half of founding fathers probably owned slaves too.
In the year 2004, the present day, the reality is, western societies have turned into MULTICULTURAL society (there is no way around that fact), where all races have equal rights, where religions are mixed, and not all believe in Jesus of the 4 officialy recognised Gospels of the Bible, King James Translation.
Sooner or later people will have to accept the fact that their religious belief is their PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEF, and not the absolute truth. Just because you believe in something doesn't make it so and it doesn't give you the right to force it on others who don't believe it... regardless of the fact that some people who lived a few 100 years ago said differently. They didn't live in the year 2004.
Societies evolve, they change with times, they addapt to new things. If you fail to do that, you stagnate. You remain on the level of less advanced society.

Before somebody understands this the wrong way, I know that republicans accept people of other faiths and that these people are allowed to practice their religion freely, constitution and all that. That is not the issue here. The issue is, ONE religion forcing their belief and polarizing society through laws.

If we cannot accept that our religious belief is not LAW to other humans who don't believe in it, then how the hell are we supposed to accept alien culture from another planet that we will eventually encounter in this vast universe? Do you think that they will carry a Bible with them and believe in Jesus?

No matter how you twist and turn it, religion is the cause of a whole lot of problems. Actually, a more correct term would be practicing religion in society.
While society is constantly evolving, religion often stays behind and it takes a while before the official representatives of religions accept the change. That always creates the divide between those who are conservative and liberal.
Eventualy they all come to the same place, but there are always new issues that arise, creating new polarisation of society.

Multiculturalism does not destroy anybody's values. You are not forced to become them, you are not forced to become gay, you are just forced to change your view of society and accept the fact that your belief is NOT everybody's belief and law.

The true peace and freedom will come when all countries on earth accept this and separate religion from legislative business.

wow, i go to sleep for the night, and this thread goes from donttreadonme asking a simple question, to some members going on a bashing spree.....
and im sorry if my first post sounded like i was leaning towards one side or another, im not, i was just using that as an example. now that thats said........

after reading through everyone's posts, i can see why religion is tearing our nation apart. a lot of people feel that their religion is better than the next guys, now im not saying everyone, just a lot. and as to use another example, we saw it this past election, i was watching the local news here, and people said they were voting for Bush because he was a christian, and because his religious beliefs need to be the beliefs of the country. that kinda made me mad. they should not have been voting for him based soley on religion.

religion is definatly tearing our nation apart. i feel that everyone has the right to choose their religion, lifestyle, whatever. i dont think anything should be forced upon us that we dont want. i think that everyone needs to accept other's religions (and im not saying you have to like their religion) and just go back to daily life, and not worry about what god your neighbor is praying to.

this is kinda a tricky subject for me. I was raised born again christian, i dont really follow or believe it any more. i believe that there is a higher power, but i dont feel that i have to go to church to believe in him. my sister went the complete opposite way. she is wiccan now. so i have learned to accept and embrace her for who she is. i dont' like her religion, but i still love her anyways.

if everyone just learns to get along with, and deal with eachothers beliefs, our nation wouldnt be in the shape that its in, religion wise. i know our nation has many other problems........ but these are my thoughts and views on religion.

edited for better readability

[edit on 11/15/2004 by smilingsarah82]

I'd say the real worry about this is the rarely challenged idea that 'evangelical fundamentalism' is 'Christianity'.

It isn't.
It is - however large it has grown in the USA - a tiny sect within the overall 'Christian' religion.

Like all 'we're 100% right, you're 100% wrong' ideologies they are, IMO, a potential very very dangerous menace.

.....and for those who see this as exaggerated and they never done no-one no harm - unlike those Muslims - I suggest you study a little just what role evangelical fundamentalism has played in the northern Ireland conflict in the last 50yrs.

Ian Paisley (laughably assigned the title 'Doctor' thanks to a couple of essays and the - 'kerrrrr-ching!' - rattle of coin, from the Bob Jones 'university'.......segregation a speciality, until very very recently) played a significant role in inspiring 'loyalist' terrorism in the sectarian strife that tore NI apart.

Go read what that lunatics themselves say.
Check out the ideas of RJ Rushdooney, Pat Robertsdon, Ralph Reed, Jerry - Fartwell - Fallwell et al and tell me they're just a bunch of harmless believers.

They're not.
The 'leadership of the 'religious right' (ludicrously and self-agrandisingly labelling itself the 'moral majority') have an agenda which far from being 'mainstream' would scare the general populace rigid.....if they had the guts to actually discuss publicly their, er, shall we say more 'unusual theological ideas' publicly?

IMHO there can only be serious trouble ahead if this mix of politics and religion once again achieves real power and develops.

It's happened so many times in the past, there'll be no surprises just the same old intolerant religious fascism as it ever was.


[edit on 15-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

To me, if is perfectly acceptable for one to consider their religious believes, praying for God's guidance, and even going into the political arena if they feel that God desires that of them.

But when it comes to debates in the legisalture, or political debates, if one cannot support their views using logic and reason, well, don't bother bringing God into the picture. Since others are not obligated by any law to accept your God or your believes in the matter. To me their claim that our founding fathers created this nation as a christian nation is just an attempt to claim that thier posistion automatically deserves more consideration and acceptance simply because they cannot say anything else. As far as they are concerned, God says it is so, and so it is....and their thought process hasn't gone much farther than that. They have no logical argument and must resort to such claims.

And, well, I said pray for God's guidance, not having preists and pastors guiding you into that decision!!

And, well, some things are considered illegal in this country, others unethical....DeLay seems to have been involved in both in his attempt to gain the Religious Right their political power.
Maybe they haven't read that verse in the Bible that states God will abase those who exalt themselves?

I heard somewhere that there has been an increase in church attendance, but it is mostly in those fundalmentalist churches......
I think every religion can be broken down into two groups, one strives to live the life that they feel God would have them live and concentrates on what is needed to change themselves to that lifestyle. They tend to believe that God, in his time, will take care of those around them.
The other seems to feel that God has charged them with changing the world to fit their image of heaven...and so, they strive to change the laws, change the people's habits, ect. To me, these fundaalmentalist christians are more similar to the taliban in their views that they are their moderate christian counterparts in this country.
They don't want any type of birth control.
They don't want any type of divorce.
They don't want there to be any type of resemblance of equality between women and men. And, they insist that women should always be veiwed a notch lower than the men.
And, well, since it is devine profidence that men should rule over women, it must also be divine profidence that some men should also rule over those men veiwed to be a notch lower than them..... Thus the idea that half the population of america doesn't deserve a living wage, while "God's elect" deserve million dollar/year salaries. Those other people should of went to college, or worked harder, or shouldn't have had their kids...whatever excuse if necessary to prevent their view of the world from being revealed as a sham.

We keep hearing about how the democrats have shot themselves in the foot but well, what about those "elistist" republicans running around calling us all lazy because they have managed to let our economy get so out of control that careers we've had for decades just don't make the grade anymore. We should have went to college?? NO, my husband didn't go to college, he spent over 20 years learning a trade that is needed to keep every machine in this country running. He's paid taxes all those years, a portion of which, I bet, some of those elitists have used to help them get through college and earn that degree.
Their elitist attitude mixed in with their religious veiws has left a bad taste in my mouth and a strong desire never to vote republican again!!!

Not to mention creating a deep divide in the party itself as the true conservatives wonder just what the heck is going on.

Originally posted by smilingsarah82
wow, i go to sleep for the night, and this thread goes from donttreadonme asking a simple question, to some members going on a bashing spree.....
and im sorry if my first post sounded like i was leaning towards one side or another, im not, i was just using that as an example. now that thats said........

after reading through everyone's posts, i can see why religion is tearing our nation apart. *snip*

And, perhaps my original intent was not adequately presented. Not only are there major religious differences in this country, but they are encouraged, by at the very least the media. And, I submit, even the two political parties themselves.
Look ate how the media leads us around. As an earlier posted noted, the excess coverage in the Scot Peterson case, disregarding more important events in the country/world.

Again: our religious differences are encouraged to keep dissension alive and well in the country. This dissension enables those who rule to more effectively pursing their agenda.
A divided nation cannot effectively govern itself. We are too busy arging about how we are different when we should be looking for commonalities.

[edit on 15-11-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]