Father disowns daughter in epic letter when she kicks out her gay son

WorthlessServant
When something is illegal, it discourages the behavior. Is it so difficult to understand that? Making something legal therefore enables the behavior or no longer discourages it.

And since there is nothing wrong with homosexuality ... since it is a natural event in nature ... since those people deserve the same rights as everyone else ... since it doesn't hurt you in the least bit .... then GOOD! Legalize it. It's about time our laws reflected some evolution and maturity in this matter.

reply to post by BigfootNZ


Firstly.... you have misquoted me a few times. I didnt speak of 'love'!

Secondly, You missed my point. I am not here trying to deny homosexuality. I am simply asking 'why does it exist in the first place'. Nobody looks into the cause, only the justification. This is ignorant.

As humans we have the ability to fully understand ourselves and the environment from other perspectives.

We are the only species that has the ability to self-destruct. Why is this not a trait among other species?

Im not gonna argue.

combatmaster
reply to post by BigfootNZ

 

Firstly.... you have misquoted me a few times. I didnt speak of 'love'!

Secondly, You missed my point. I am not here trying to deny homosexuality. I am simply asking 'why does it exist in the first place'. Nobody looks into the cause, only the justification. This is ignorant.

As humans we have the ability to fully understand ourselves and the environment from other perspectives.

We are the only species that has the ability to self-destruct. Why is this not a trait among other species?

Im not gonna argue.

Its all in how we utilize abstract thought with logic. We are more capable of abstract thought, it would seem, than most animals.

The difficult part in discussing such things is that none of us really has a context for the "animal mind". We can't even successfully discern between our ego, our psyche, and that other "inner being" that some call "the true self" or "the soul".

reply to post by Christian Voice


I'm facing that situation right now. I have 4 boys(all grown actually) My youngest two(twins) raised differently that the older two. My four know how my wife and I feel about that kind of lifestyle and raised ours as Christians.

My oldest called me to warn us that one of the youngest was ready to "come out". I have known for a while that the appearance tended to say "gay". I ACTUALLY SURPRISED MY WIFE AND BOYS

I told them that I would never disown my gay son, but my belief system says that he can't bring that lifestyle into my home. He is always welcome, but alone.

I was told that it would change the family gatherings if I didn't allow that behavior during the holidays.

I said, both of us made choices...He to indulge in that behavior and decide not to come home for the holidays, and I in saying I wouldn't allow that behavior in my house. Immoral, disgusting, aberrant, selfish behavior. Love my son always....Hate the behavior always.

P.S. As an aside my son hasn't told my wife(who is in denial) of his lifestyle choice..She doesn't want to hear it, and says if she does....she will want to move from her lifelong hometown.

FlyersFan
And since there is nothing wrong with homosexuality ... since it is a natural event in nature ... since those people deserve the same rights as everyone else ... since it doesn't hurt you in the least bit .... then GOOD! Legalize it. It's about time our laws reflected some evolution and maturity in this matter.

Lol, right.. It's also "natural" to be nude, move in a troop, and fight the strongest male for the right to reproduce. Very.. evolved and mature.

dakota1s2
reply to post by Christian Voice

 

I'm facing that situation right now. I have 4 boys(all grown actually) My youngest two(twins) raised differently that the older two. My four know how my wife and I feel about that kind of lifestyle and raised ours as Christians.

My oldest called me to warn us that one of the youngest was ready to "come out". I have known for a while that the appearance tended to say "gay". I ACTUALLY SURPRISED MY WIFE AND BOYS

I told them that I would never disown my gay son, but my belief system says that he can't bring that lifestyle into my home. He is always welcome, but alone.

I was told that it would change the family gatherings if I didn't allow that behavior during the holidays.

I said, both of us made choices...He to indulge in that behavior and decide not to come home for the holidays, and I in saying I wouldn't allow that behavior in my house. Immoral, disgusting, aberrant, selfish behavior. Love my son always....Hate the behavior always.

P.S. As an aside my son hasn't told my wife(who is in denial) of his lifestyle choice..She doesn't want to hear it, and says if she does....she will want to move from her lifelong hometown.

edit on 7-10-2013 by dakota1s2 because: (no reason given)

Your family will be destroyed by your choice. If you are fine with that, because of your principles, then you are fine with that. However, if I may judge your behavior in the same way you judge your sons (from man to man, father to father....each of us with gay sons).....what you are doing is a bigger abomination than if all 4 of your sons were gay.

If you really want to have trouble sleeping at night, look up the suicide rates for young men going through what you son is going through (being effectively disowned by his family). And to help prevent that, all you have to do is love your son unconditionally....even if it disgusts you.

You forgot to quote me in context so i will do it for you.

WorthlessServant
. . . If the government revoked incest laws i will put ANY money down that people would start marrying their siblings, even though it is generally frowned upon. If the government revoked polygamy laws, i will again put ANY money down that people would start to have more than one wife, even though it is generally understood that you should have one marital partner.

FlyersFan
And since there is nothing wrong with homosexuality ... since it is a natural event in nature ... since those people deserve the same rights as everyone else ... since it doesn't hurt you in the least bit .... then GOOD! Legalize it. It's about time our laws reflected some evolution and maturity in this matter.

It also doesn't harm anyone to have more than one wife, and it doesn't harm anyone to make incest marriage legal too right? I mean what, lets be mature about this and if someone wants to marry their siblings they should have the right to do so. It also doesn't hurt anyone if someone runs streaking through a football crowd, since they simply want to experience the freedom of the air between their loins.

Just because these things don't directly hurt another person, doesn't mean there isn't a long term effect on society.

It's amazing how repugnant the human species can be. I'm beginning to suspect that we're closer to the bottom of the evolutionary ladder than experts would have us believe. No master species of the world would so easily denigrate its own. You may as well stick your finger in a meat grinder.

bigfatfurrytexan

combatmaster
reply to post by BigfootNZ

 

Firstly.... you have misquoted me a few times. I didnt speak of 'love'!

Secondly, You missed my point. I am not here trying to deny homosexuality. I am simply asking 'why does it exist in the first place'. Nobody looks into the cause, only the justification. This is ignorant.

As humans we have the ability to fully understand ourselves and the environment from other perspectives.

We are the only species that has the ability to self-destruct. Why is this not a trait among other species?

Im not gonna argue.

Its all in how we utilize abstract thought with logic. We are more capable of abstract thought, it would seem, than most animals.

The difficult part in discussing such things is that none of us really has a context for the "animal mind". We can't even successfully discern between our ego, our psyche, and that other "inner being" that some call "the true self" or "the soul".

Exactly.... and the ability to identify and comprehend such a 'misunderstanding' is what makes humans so unique on this planet compared to other species. It is like a catch 22 we cannot fully grasp, but at the same time ignore.

WorthlessServant
It also doesn't harm anyone to have more than one wife, and it doesn't harm anyone to make incest marriage legal too right?

I think it sets up armchair-pedantic strawmen when a discussion cannot stay to the topic but must enforce that every other possible topic in the world also by proxy be globally allowed or disallowed if this topical focus were. I understand it is reasonable sometimes to create analogies however since every situation is context-specific, it mostly serves to muddy and emotionalize arguments like this.

It also doesn't hurt anyone if someone runs streaking through a football crowd

You moved into the what-affects-innocent-onlookers territory with that proxy which takes it outside any fair realm for this discussion. At least your first two were things which are specific to the individuals involved, although the incest argument has so many layers of issues it is inappropriate to apply here.

Just because these things don't directly hurt another person, doesn't mean there isn't a long term effect on society.

I would agree it's possible that everything has a long-term effect on society. However, I'm not sure you can give any decent modern studies on populations with these legally-allowed behaviors which would suggest that they were a bad effect on society -- can you? I don't know of any but I don't normally study this topic. Depending on the detail, some things would always be quite uncommon, but might actually have a decent effect on 'society' in the long run.

I tend to think that allowing 'long-term official marital commitment' from people is a positive, and that allowing everything from health and life insurance coverage to hospital visitation rights to estate inheritance rights, for spouses -- regardless of gender -- is a positive thing.

It is true that legalizing gay civil unions or marriage or whatever would change society in that it would allow these things. But since I can personally see no reason for withholding such things from individuals in that situation aside from outright prejudice -- of the same sort that one would apply to someone for being tall, or fat, or a given religion, or any other thing that is sometimes used as a point of bias in our society -- then I don't see why "changing society" in this case is a bad thing.

I would think if anything, society should be evolving toward a social model that simultaneously encourages individual integrity, family commitment, and discourages arbitrary segregation (which one might as well call social-criminalization). The former lead to a stronger culture and the latter leads to more of the same hatred, crime and misery that humanity is still, all these millennia later, trying to grow out of.

And failing, perhaps partly due to the resistant percentage of our society who cannot fathom or allow a world without prejudice.

dakota1s2
reply to post by Christian Voice

 

I'm facing that situation right now. I have 4 boys(all grown actually) My youngest two(twins) raised differently that the older two. My four know how my wife and I feel about that kind of lifestyle and raised ours as Christians.

My oldest called me to warn us that one of the youngest was ready to "come out". I have known for a while that the appearance tended to say "gay". I ACTUALLY SURPRISED MY WIFE AND BOYS

I told them that I would never disown my gay son, but my belief system says that he can't bring that lifestyle into my home. He is always welcome, but alone.

Would you treat him differently if he were in a heterosexual relationship? If the answer is yes, do you have the money for his psychological therapy? Because you'll be responsible for the damage.

I was told that it would change the family gatherings if I didn't allow that behavior during the holidays.

I said, both of us made choices...He to indulge in that behavior and decide not to come home for the holidays, and I in saying I wouldn't allow that behavior in my house. Immoral, disgusting, aberrant, selfish behavior. Love my son always....Hate the behavior always.

How ironic. Immoral, disgusting, aberrant, and, most of all, SELFISH, are the exact words anyone with a good head on their shoulders would use to describe your ridiculous behaviour on judging you own child at such a fragile period of his life.

They would use them to describe homosexuality if their last name was Phelps and they picketed soldiers' funerals.

reply to post by WorthlessServant

STRAW MAN. And yes, you said that it should be a mature discussion.
So let's not use straw man arguments. Okay?

I realized (this morning's enlightenment) that in responding to the points of comment I find issue with, I failed to respond to the larger context.

This is a difficult situation and it's fair to recognize that. Sometimes a parent loves their kid like crazy and it hurts them on several levels. Often they have a lot of their own ego in play about what others think which makes it much worse.

It isn't fair to beat up on someone for being honest about what they're going through with that, and I apologize if I have unintentionally done so. I mean it's fair to address the points at issue but having these issues does not make them a bad person, it just makes them a person right in the midst of a very challenging situation in life. It's HARD to transition through this stuff. More for some than others.

Every person eventually goes through something that is hard for them to deal with, something which forces them to face their fears, prejudices or limitations, and situations they don't know how to handle. This is one version, not the only version. There are quite a few other things that you can discover about a family member that are sometimes so much worse as to make a person desperately wish it were only a matter of someone's sexual orientation to deal with...

It is ok for parents to be initially frustrated, confused, upset, they are going to be, this is totally normal, you can't change that part. Nearly every parent in that situation is going to go through that. It's one thing to address the problem points. It's another to make it seem like their "turbulence" is itself wrong. It's more like "unavoidable" for most.

I tend to think every human should have a counselor (not religious) anyway, but I think when someone runs into situations in their life that are really challenging in a way nothing has been before, especially when it relates to immediate family, this can be even more helpful. Sometimes, just having someone objective who is not personally affected (like family) or emotionally impelled for other reasons (like people on the internet often, or others in the church) can be really great.

This is a comment I realized was bothering me:

I was told that it would change the family gatherings if I didn't allow that behavior during the holidays.

Think about that for a minute.

Are we expecting your son to be having sex for the crowd? Because the only homosexual thing specific to "behavior" is sex. In the average family gathering how many people actually "act out" sexual behavior? Unless your family is way more promiscuous than mine, and given you're religious they're probably not, this would be rare. Spouses/girlfriends at our family gatherings merely sit next to each other, and often barely that as we tend to segregate by gender and by age group in various rooms and activities.

The rest of it looks an amazing amount like "being a human being." You know, with friends and family. Sometimes the 'friend' happens to be a partner, much like sometimes a female friend happens to be a partner for a man, but this is just people sitting around talking, eating, watching the game, doing dishes, teasing the kids, same-ol' typical family holiday stuff.

If by behavior this is being extended to mean something like "Might hold someone's hand or have their arm around them," then you know, even though I think this should be ok myself (and try to recall most people newly open with this need the support of their partner in public situations), if it's really that tough for everyone at least initially, maybe you can just outright ask your son to "More-gradually introduce the family to this over a period of time" and make it very plain what you mean without being insulting, and if you think you can't, or he's oversensitive, then write it down carefully in a card perhaps, don't risk a verbal conversation causing lifetime hurt due to the inflammatory nature of emotions.

This is not to say that you can make a moratorium like some ancient dancing no closer than six inches law, nor can you fairly demand anything permanently. But it's fair to say that if you love your son and I'm sure you do, and he loves you and I'm sure he does, then I believe you could work together, and if that requires a little bit of compromise while the entire family adapts to this new element which is likely uncomfortable for everybody, I think if you're willing to do it that way -- and I mean compromise, not "give him conditional demands" which is a totally different thing, the underlying emphasis here being to make it clear you love him and want to work with him on what will best allow you to continue to have a loving family and relationship with him -- then maybe it could be good. It is worth trying.

In other words, if you think of this like a business issue, the important point is that you both have the same goals: you both love each other and you both want to have a loving family. It is in the best interests of both of you to recognize the situation, whatever it is, and find a way to maintain a good relationship between you and a loving family overall. There is no need for things to be one extreme or the other. An entire family or even a single parent does not have to throw away their religious beliefs or join the gay parade just to accept that their son or daughter has different preferences for a partner.

Some things are a matter of compromise, not always permanently. If you are willing to meet your son halfway on this and sincerely work toward accepting him and whomever he chooses to make his family, perhaps he would be willing to make an effort toward that also. I suspect he would far rather have that, than have rejection from those he loves most.

When my cousin the manly-man suddenly had a male partner (as opposed to a never ending string of skanky women he treated badly), the first few family gatherings were a little uncomfortable here and there -- everyone was kind to them, but after a few events, discomfort was over. Nobody cared after that. At first it was new for everyone, the family hadn't had anybody gay before and nobody knew how to behave about it. But after awhile you realize there is no way to behave about it because it's not any different than anything or anybody else. It was us standing around bug-eyed because cousin-hottie wasn't with a woman anymore, it wasn't really him, he and his partner sat on the back porch with a beer and talked to the other guys, which looked exactly like he had behaved at every other family holiday for the previous 20 years.

I believe the father of a family has a powerful role to play, similar to a CEO. I believe the father's strength of will and expansive warmth are what form the anchor and foundation for a family, those two things being equally important. I hope you can set a strong emphasis on love and family, and make clear to anyone asking or observing that this is what you consider important in life. How you respond is not just about you and your son -- it will affect your wife, your other 3 sons, and the extended family too, including your grandchildren and events for the next 40 years. There is a responsibility here, to see the bigger picture and longer term vision of how your response has a domino-effect on everyone.

My father married 5 times. I'm a minor sociologist just from having so many families. Nothing is more important than a loving and extended family. The world of hurt you set up for so many otherwise... trust me. "Love rules."

reply to post by RedCairo


Well...a wise person would be one who sought out their fears and prejudices. Confront them on your terms, before you are stuck with a philosophical quandry while you are in an intellectually rattled state.

I understand that it may seem hedonistic....but if the goal is to "know thyself", then you must first challenge yourself.

On an upnote: the memories you are left with are...priceless(? if that is the correct word).

ETA: on having a "counselor"...yes. I have 2: a mom and a wife. Sometimes my sons, too. We all discuss our issues together and take a group approach. My mom isn't looped in often (she is disabled/living with us). But absolutely, for me, my counselor is my wife. And I am hers.

BFFT: FWIW I was actually responding to a couple others on the thread not you since you seem to have it together just fine already. (I want to use a smiley face. But they look stupid now so I won't.)

What came across as quite interesting was a kind of shift in power, implied both by the OP's letter (whether authentic or not), and by the thread discussions.

Those who are intolerant based on ideology may be treated with equal intolerance.

Yet, the astounding thing is some don't even realize this, and they are still on their imaginary thrones, imagining only they get to decide who should live where, who runs family gatherings and who should be accepted or not.

The implied message actually says that social status is earned by example.
Homophobes also run the risk of being excluded from certain situations, and families may eventually decide to meet behind their backs.
Especially as fundamentalism has led to a growing resentment towards social crusaders.
Nobody wants to be with a meddling, authoritarian bore.

Perhaps that's a message they should also consider - point a finger, and three more point right back.

halfoldman
What came across as quite interesting was a kind of shift in power, implied both by the OP's letter (whether authentic or not), and by the thread discussions.

Those who are intolerant based on ideology may be treated with equal intolerance.

Yet, the astounding thing is some don't even realize this, and they are still on their imaginary thrones, imagining only they get to decide who should live where, who runs family gatherings and who should be accepted or not.

The implied message actually says that social status is earned by example.
Homophobes also run the risk of being excluded from certain situations, and families may eventually decide to meet behind their backs.
Especially as fundamentalism has led to a growing resentment towards social crusaders.
Nobody wants to be with a meddling, authoritarian bore.

Perhaps that's a message they should also consider - point a finger, and three more point right back.

edit on 8-10-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

Although this might be slightly off-topic, I feel it is relevant to the thread, because it relates to intolerance itself.

One thing I have ALWAYS been in awe at, and found fascinating, is just HOW MUCH people with hate in their hearts, and people who are judgemental, harsh, or intolerant, MISS OUT ON LIFE.

See, what they don't realize....is that many of us who are intuitive, empathetic, and open-hearted.....we respond so negatively to hate and intolerance, that we often close down around those who are, shy away, and generally avoid their company.

And here is the real kicker....many of these hateful types don't realize how quickly others pick up on it. We notice it RIGHT AWAY, the way you treat your children, the way you treat your wife, the way you act to those who aren't of the same race, socio-economic background, or those who don't attend YOUR church.

The thing is....those of us, who have so MUCH TO OFFER, we don't always argue with you, or write you a letter resigning from your company or friendship. We simply avoid your company.....and if you hateful types realized just HOW MANY opportunities in life you have missed out of on, because the majority of the people around you can smell your hate and fear from a mile away, you would drop dead out of shock.

I have noticed this time and time again throughout my life.....the hateful and prideful types, the racist and judgmental types....they always wonder why they suffer from poor relationships, or why things don't go their way...or why their children despise them...or their wife left them.....or why even though they are "perfect christians" or however they see themselves....they generally are miserable and unfulfilled.

Here is a secret the rest of the world knows. The reason WHY people avoid you, people who have known you for a long time, and people who just meet you alike....the reason is because although your hate and fear and prejudice might not be apparent to YOU......it is apparent to US.



I guess it took longer than I thought to make this point, and so the "too long, didn't read version:"

If you are hateful, prejudice, racist, bigoted, etc...... all of us who are kind spirited and accepting of others, we NOTICE IT RIGHT AWAY. You guys have missed out on SO MUCH that I couldn't begin to explain it in this thread, the very closeness you can feel with a human who truly trusts you....many of you will never get to experience

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Unconditionally is how I love.... As I said in my post, He is always welcome in my home just as yesterday he was..

My family will never disintegrate with my decision to not have the lifestyle in my home..You don't know me or my family

dakota1s2
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Unconditionally is how I love.... As I said in my post, He is always welcome in my home just as yesterday he was..

My family will never disintegrate with my decision to not have the lifestyle in my home..You don't know me or my family

I hope it doesn't.

But I have grown up in the buckle of the bible belt. And could make a rather long list of families I knew personally that have had their foundations shattered by various tragedies that could ahve been avoided.

Now, I think you may not understand what "unconditionally" means. Because your condition is, "So long as he don't bring that in my house".

Good luck. I really am pulling for you.

One other thing: be mindful that "lifestyle" is a huge misnomer. It is no more a lifestyle for him than your marriage to your wife is. Its just him doing what comes natural to him. Now, you may say, "I believe its a choice", which many will say, "No, it is not". So, are you really willing to stake something so important as your son on "believe", instead of "know"? Belief should not always be a substitution for knowledge....and until someone can declare with definitive proof that homosexuality is a "lifestyle" rather than a state of being, all you have are beliefs.