Obamacare enforcement, does anyone actually believe this?

This is an interesting issue which has become muddled (to say the least) by both sides during the bickering.

www.usatoday.com...

Midway down the article is a series of statements from the IRS regarding the enforcement of the penalties/taxes/dowry, whatever they conveniently call it depending on which court they're arguing in front of.

Shulman, April 5, 2010:I think there's a couple important points that I would make, though, about our role in health reform. One is that these are not the kinds of things — check the box whether you're here or not [whether you have bought insurance] — that we send agents out about. These are things where you get a letter from us. Second is Congress was very careful to make sure that there was nothing too punitive in this bill. … First of all, there's no criminal sanctions for not paying this, and there's no ability to levy a bank account or do seizures, some of the other tools.

But then, we see this:

Shulman, April 5, 2010: My belief is while some people may play with the kind of question that was asked, the vast majority of American people have a healthy respect for the law and want to be compliant with their tax obligations and whatever else the law holds. People will get letters from us. We can actually do collection if need be. People can get offsets of their tax returns in future years, so there's a variety of ways for us to focus on things like fraud, things like abuse, and we're gonna run a balanced program.

Note the bolded portion above. Collection? Hmm... First of all, the rest of the statement is complete bullsquat. The majority of us would send photocopies of our middle fingers to the IRS every year if they didn't have tools like liens, levys, garnishments, siezures, and ultimately prison. There's a reason the tax man is viewed with hatred and bile by most of us. Beyond that, what does IRS collection entail?

Searching for that, I discovered this:
www.irs.gov...

That document lays out the entire IRS collection process... note that in all aspects it involves levys, liens, and siezures. It also can involve the court system. Funny thing about courts, once they order you to pay something, refusal by you to do so leads to contempt of court and jail time. Note that the IRS isn't sending you to jail, the court is sending you to jail for refusal of a court order. Seems nitpicky... but then our entire law is just a big pile of nits to pick through.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


This is another one of those things it should be interesting to see play out for legal issues. I was surprised but rather happy to find the Missouri (and others) State Constitution specifically prohibits jail or any incarceration related to debt. The wording is more formal, of course, but the meaning is absolute and impossible to miss. The exception being...Court ordered fines, fees and levies. So....will it simply take the courts to order it?

Err...but then, another part of the Missouri Constitution (and other states now) specifically prohibits, by state law, any agency or entity inside our state from cooperating with the exchanges or other key parts of Obamacare. To add to that, it is also illegal to levy fines, penalties or other means of punishment for failure to comply with federal direction on this issue.

All that to say...State law says, very specifically, we don't mind because it doesn't matter. Obama has said..equally clearly, HE doesn't mind because WE don't matter ...and it'll be done anyway, whether we, as a state, cooperate or not.

So...How does that leave us poor folk in Misery and other states for the question of the moment? How does enforcement work, where enforcement is against the law?

They can say whatever they want but the fact is the supreme court has ruled that the penalty for not buying insurance is not a fine, it`s a TAX.
There are laws in place that dictate how the IRS can collect taxes including, seizure of property and assets,wage garnishment,and other nasty things.The IRS has never been shy about using every legal means to collect taxes and I don`t think they are going differentiate between the obamacare tax and any other tax when it comes to collecting.
Unless there has been specific language inserted in the obamacare law that exempts the obamacare tax from the normal means of collection then the IRS will be using the same means to collect the obamacare tax as they use to collect any other tax.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


They're going to take all your stuff to pay the "fines", and you still aren't going to have any "health care."

If you think that's bad - just wait till all of the low-information voters find out about the mandatory home visits - if you're under 21 with a baby, if someone in your house smokes cigarettes, if your kid isn't doing well in school - those idiots who wanted this crap are going to have a huge eye opening experience.

Keep the gov't shutdown until this crap is defunded and laid to rest.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


States rights VS federal government rights, wow the last time we came to this crossroad bad things happened,lets hope it doesn`t come to that this time.

Here is a screen capture from Healthcare.gov's Facebook page, where a guy is telling what popped up when he hit the OPT OUT button....



What he says is this for those whom can't read his comment.

“I actually made it through this morning at 8:00 A.M. I have a preexisting condition (Type 1 Diabetes) and my income base was 45K-55K annually I chose tier 2 “Silver Plan” and my monthly premiums came out to $597.00 with $13,988 yearly deductible!!! There is NO POSSIBLE way that I can afford this so I “opt-out” and chose to continue along with no insurance.

I received an email tonight at 5:00 P.M. informing me that my fine would be $4,037 and could be attached to my yearly income tax return. Then you make it to the “REPERCUSSIONS PORTION” for “non-payment” of yearly fine. First, your drivers license will be suspended until paid, and if you go 24 consecutive months with “Non-Payment” and you happen to be a home owner, you will have a federal tax lien placed on your home. You can agree to give your bank information so that they can easy “Automatically withdraw” your “penalties” weekly, bi-weekly or monthly! This by no means is “Free” or even “Affordable.”

I am curious if anyone on ATS hit the Opt Out button and if something like this popped up and they received this email, as this person claimed......

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The problem with that is federal tax charges are considered by the SCOTUS to fall under the supremecy clause. They will prosecute in a federal court and, to be honest, laws like what Missouri has passed will probably be at the core of many of the poor saps that see prison time. A lot of freedom loving people will believe that they can safely thumb their nose at the bastards in DC because their state protects them only to discover that the federal courts don't give a damn about states and their rights.

Plus, the law regarding debtors prison in the USA has been completely raped by the courts. Debtors prisons are more prevalent than ever, even though the law claims they don't exist and aren't legal in this country. The game they play is to imprison people for violations of a court order. An example being Richard Hatch of Survivor fame: www.taxgirl.com...

This time, Hatch turned himself into U.S. marshals in Rhode Island to serve time as a penalty for failing to comply with the judge’s orders. He had been ordered to refile his 2000 and 2001 taxes and pay what he owed but he has not done so.

That's debtor prison right there... except the feds use "failure to comply with a court order" as a loophole by which they can resume England's medival practice of throwing people into jail for their debts to the Crown.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


The Globalist Gangsters use false labels to their benefit. Let's all stop using their fake labels, this alone has power. From here on out it's called ObamaKill

It is a more appropriate name. It's killing our elderly, it's killing our economy, it's killing businesses, it's killing our freedom, it's killing our privacy, it's now OFFICIALLY as far as I'm concerned called OBAMAKILL.

Oh, and the new world order is now called the Zionist World Order.

The USA was founded as a country that left and was fighting the corrupt Anglo Judaio World model of serfdom, poverty, and slavery. Here we are going right back into their hands, going right back into what our ancestors fought to get away from. The USA has been taken. We are now back under the evil British Zionist Empire where there is no accountability between leader and peasant. The American Model is dead and tyranny rises in it's place.

reply to post by burdman30ott6

Yeah...what you say there about the special status of tax collection above all other things in Government is what I'm afraid makes all the difference. There was certainly nothing accidental or arbitrary about picking the revenue collection agency for a medical program. They chose the one agency most completely above ALL law to check or control their actions in this area.

It's a heck of a catch-22 here, isn't it? If the law is followed, this simply cannot work. Too many states are opt-out and with a hard attitude of non-compliance to fully fund what has to be funded. Yet, as you note, "If the law is followed" leaves oceans of expanse to read in ways around this.

So people like me are stuck I guess. Can't go forward, can't back up. I break state law one way and federal law the other. Well... phooey. Days like this can make a teetoaller go on a bender.

If you normally get taxes back, then you get a smaller return to pay for Obamacare. If you have to pay every year already (like I do) then it's added to the debt you already owe. So, in short, if you owe the IRS and don't make payments (in which case they add interest and penalties) they will do the exact same thing they have always done. IE, send threatening letters to seize your assets, garnish your wages etc. Just because the tax they call Obamacare is added to the mix, doesn't mean their policy is going to suddenly change.

This is just going to make things worse for those who are already struggling with the IRS and those who depend on hefty returns every year as well.

Edit: This could be eventually a good thing leading the end of the IRS. Once masses of people realize how screwed they are going to be by the IRS, then I predict a LOT of people will want it to end.

Is the Health care decent in debtors prison?
I mean "Everyone" will have coverage right?
Keeps it honest.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


Simple solution.

Follow the law.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

this will be a State rights Issue and an IRS issue ,

if you're in a State that refuses to buy in, will you be forced to pay in the fines issued by the IRS? will the person fall under Fed jurestion?

This is one issue no one has brought up. It is like this: the State says you need not to buy or pay, but you still pay Fed taxes and this is a tax by the Fed Gov, will the State pay for non compliant persons in their State?

I did get a kick out of CBS news last night when they said Utah was one that has Obama care , we do not, we opted out, it will be interesting to see how this is enforced, by the IRS

reply to post by AlienScience


Yeah that's fine and dandy, but if the Facebook post is true, following the law is going to bankrupt a lot of people....

TorqueyThePig
reply to post by AlienScience

 

Yeah that's fine and dandy, but if the Facebook post is true, following the law is going to bankrupt a lot of people....

edit on 2-10-2013 by TorqueyThePig because: (no reason given)

Well, by all means, believe the facebook post...no reason that wouldn't be true...on the internet.

Follow the law, there are no excuses not to. If you don't and you end up in jail, that is your own choice.

AlienScience

TorqueyThePig
reply to post by AlienScience

 

Yeah that's fine and dandy, but if the Facebook post is true, following the law is going to bankrupt a lot of people....

edit on 2-10-2013 by TorqueyThePig because: (no reason given)

Well, by all means, believe the facebook post...no reason that wouldn't be true...on the internet.

Follow the law, there are no excuses not to. If you don't and you end up in jail, that is your own choice.

no it isn't our choice, that's the point, we don't have a friggin choice, non whatsoever. that's okay though as i don't see this abortion going very far anyway, heck it will be bankrupt in less than a year and shut down for that reason. most people are not going to sign up for this horse dung until well after the penalties outweigh the fees and by then it will be a thing of the past.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


I think I am going to start a new thread.
I shall name it "Macman and others told you all so". (Not directed to you)

Myself, Beezer, Slayer and many others have been on here for some time telling people what was going to happen.

I am not surprised by any of this.

reply to post by LittleBlackEagle


So your theory is that "most people" are going to go without health insurance and instead pay a fine that is a couple thousand dollars less than what the insurance will cost?

I'm not sure if you understand this or not, but you paying the fine is more beneficial to the ACA than you purchasing insurance. The ACA gets direct funding from you and you get zero benefits.

Good plan, let me know how that works out.

reply to post by seeker1963


for an affordable care act obamacare sure doesn`t seem to be very affordable.
It`s a poverty tax plain and simple.