Perspectology

After an extended break from ATS I come back with a refreshing new perspective...and consequently a fun new study that has helped me greatly and hopefully others as well.

That is what I call perspectology...or the study of perspective. I didn't really realize what I was doing all these years on ATS participating in a few thousand threads and witnessing several thousand more arguments until I left...At the time I had no idea what I was subconsciously studying here. I was studying some of the most far out, abstract, out of the box, conceptual perspectives the internet has to offer.

The threads and consequent posts are so 180 degrees from one another sometimes its hard to believe were all on the same planet and plane of existence...but then again its pretty obvious that even though physically were sharing the same general perspective here on earth...we all have very specific distinct and unique mental perspectives and interpretations of this earthly experience...


The Foundation of an Argument:

A bicycle tire is spinning in the middle of a room. You are on one side of the tire and your best friend on the other. We'll call your perspective (A) and your friend's perspective (B). The tire will be a NEUTRAL object in the room and well label it (C)

From your perspective (A) the tire is spinning clockwise lets say...
From your friends perspective (B) the tire is spinning counter clockwise...

The argument: Which way is the tire spinning? And who is right?

I find people fall in one of 3 categories in how they answer the argument:

1) Self-reference perspective: doesn't consider the reality of their counter perspective.
2) Outside-reference perspective: dismisses their own perspective and entertains the counter perspective.
3) Axis-reference perspective: is aware of the absurdity of the argument as it entertains both perspectives.

There are some variations of these as some are axis reference manipulators. People who know the absurdity of the argument but try to manipulate or influence you out of your perspective and into theirs for a whole host of reasons.

The idea behind this thought experiment is to illustrate through a physical example with a truly neutral 3rd party (the tire) that perspective does indeed determine what we like to call "reality".

Reality being this not so rigid and linear thing that we usually think it is and it certainly isn't a universal concept with a universal understanding...its an interpretation of which we have more than 7 billion...

This same concept can be applied within this image as well:
Is the cube face (A) or (B)???


how we answer these questions plays a huge role in how we interpret the Neutrality around us.

All of this goes even further when you apply the duality based concepts of understanding to this...yin and yang...up and down...left or right...good or bad...etc...

there are ALL individual interpretation by which there is NO neutral truth...the concept of truth and reality is defined through the perspectives we chose to hold...and we are either knowingly or unknowingly making these mental perspective choices in relation to all that is outside of us.

This is basically psychological relativity...

I will leave on this note to see how this is digested and hopefully we get some great discussion from this. I have about 15 other examples and illustrations I will post after a discussion gets going and when the examples become relevant. Until then this is a good basic point to start the conversation hopefully!


Edit to add one more:


which way is this image spinning?

Very interesting. Could we see some more of those examples you mentioned? These things are trippy.

reply to post by Sly1one


This is interesting.

I sometimes picture things spinning in opposite directions by changing perspective, not sure why, just trips me out maybe.

This could easily be applied to the chemtrail debate A) chemtrails B) contrails C) large amounts of man made clouds that something should be done about.

But isn't there also a truth to things that is irrelevant of perspective? Facts, when something appears the same from all angles and those who see different are wrong. Say a person sees me and mistakes me for someone else and I am unable to convince them otherwise, they are still wrong and their perspective is an illusion.

So I think you have a valid point but I also believe, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.

Some elements in the picture are spinning in one direction, while others spin in the opposite direction. If the picture is viewed as a 3-Dimensional object, and the white parts considered the object and the black the background it would seem that the white parts are expanding out from the middle and creating some kind of tube or vortex.

Edit:
I am actually tempted to say that nothing is spinning. Some objects might be moving, but it's doesn't require a spinning motion to create this effect. Just a few frames moving back and forth would suffice.

I can almost always find several different perspectives to an issue.
In most cases, I like to point out that the perspective you have is according to your intents.
If you want to get to one goal eventually, you will find one perspective more effective for that than another (which is better adapted to getting to a different result).

primalfractal
reply to post by Sly1one

 

But isn't there also a truth to things that is irrelevant of perspective? Facts, when something appears the same from all angles and those who see different are wrong. Say a person sees me and mistakes me for someone else and I am unable to convince them otherwise, they are still wrong and their perspective is an illusion.

So I think you have a valid point but I also believe, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.

edit on 2-10-2013 by primalfractal because: (no reason given)

It SEEMS as though there is an outside orientation that is the correct orientation to something...we call this the "TRUTH"...I'm not sold on this idea quite yet as there is this huge variable called "interpretation".

Personally I get the feeling that this 3D world we call "real" is just one hell of an illusion that we can't see past due to our limited perspective...color spectrum etc...

because of our limited perspective we come up with interesting "tools" that we think are factual....like the concept of TIME...which is really dynamic and once again...changes depending on perspective, much like...illusions.

Our perspective is for the most part limited to a grain of sand...we send probes and satellites out from this grain of sand and WHALA...a new perspective forms and all that we once knew...changes once again. Very few have the ability to see these perspectives MENTALLY without having to physically go there...Einstein was notorious for this and he called them thought experiments. Its how he came up with Relativity...he would think of the perspective of a photon travelling at light speed through the cosmos etc.

The expanding perspective being the ability to view earth from outside of it...astronauts call this the overview effect.


So while there SEEMS to be a truth outside of us it also seems like a dynamic "truth" that keeps changing...but really IT doesn't change...WE DO...our perspectives change based on how we orient ourselves to things...

Einstein's relativity involved physics...perspectology is much like psychological relativity. Psychology being as much a part of the reality we are experiencing as anything else.

Here are some other examples:

The hollow mask effect:




What I find really interesting is here
:www.newscientist.com...

I used to work heavily with Schizophrenics so this bit intrigues me as they are apparently capable of seeing through the "illusion" which implies some kind of visual aspect of mental states.

The illusion is that the mask is always convex or 3D. When in objective reality it is both simultaneously. Interestingly enough the objective reality seems to always be of paradox or contradiction...we tend to think of this "reality" as this OR that...instead of this AND that.

Another example of perspective bending "reality":
The impossible triangle...
Perspective (A)

Perspective (B)


the impossibility of perspective (A) is shattered from perspective (B). The impossibility of perspective (A) is reinforced when no other perspectives are explored...meaning you stay put and don't explore the conundrum. This LIMITED perspective is similar in many regards to the condition humanity is in from its very limited Earthly perspective, color spectrum, sound frequencies, etc...our senses have several limitations and to explore beyond those requires special devices...and these devices are what is helping us understand "reality" on a whole new level.

example:
Perspective (A)

Perspective (B)


Here is another:


example:
Perspective (A)

Perspective (B)


Now for those saying that the above illusions are contrived I agree however...they WORK and they work because of a limited perspective...which on the micro level...that is exactly what we have here on earth as human beings...a very limited perspective.

Some other illustrations of perspective warping:


is this a profile or a head on?


arrows going in or out?


arrows going up or down?


is the image moving or not?



rotating right or left?


white horses or black horses...


naturally all the above are BOTH...they are this AND that...but you can also fall into the illusion and it could appear and be interpreted as this or that.

If we get more convo on this I'm saving some of the coolest examples for last.

Mads1987
Just a few frames moving back and forth would suffice.

edit on 06/06/12 by Mads1987 because: (no reason given)

edit on 06/06/12 by Mads1987 because: (no reason given)

Just thought I would add that I made the gif you are talking about in the OP and I made it using only 3 frames. So very intuitive on your part

reply to post by Sly1one


Haha, thank you - and well done by the way!

reply to post by Sly1one


Your thread, which is an important one I might add, reminds me of an idea I had back in 2011.

Imagine for a moment that contradictions aren't something that are inexorably wrong and invalid (dialetheism).

Instead think about what a contradiction is as it relates to human plasticity.

In 2010 maybe I loved the Yankees, but in 2011? Maybe I'm so fed up with them that I decide. "Meh they suck!"

This is an honest to god contradiction, but is it false?

Someone who knows me would probably call me on it.

The truth is it can be true or false. And the more you get to thinking about it the more you start to realize that all a contradiction is "is when all things change." (i.e. a computer byte represented by 1111 1111 flipped to 0000 0000)

Bearing that in mind I took the idea a step further and wrote this quick essay.

"A Thought On Contradictions and Truth"

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on it because you're definitely thinking along the same lines of how I arrived at the idea- especially with respect to "Axis-reference perspective."

reply to post by Xtraeme


I really like your thread and some of the examples you gave...while I am focusing on visual/optical illusion based example you were focusing on verbal communication and mental conceptual definition based examples.

Anyhow, if you think of all the variables involved perspective wise..it makes less sense to try and find a universal truth...as the perspective can flip/flop between qualities...

What I find particularly intriguing is the implications for control/manipulation of reality once one realizes they aren't beholden to their convictions lest they become a hypocrite by their own definition...that how they view and interpret the world and themselves is completely up to them and none else.

Reminds me of the saying whatever you believe...you are correct and incorrect. The statement implies that your reality is real to you but leaves room to acknowledge that isn't necessarily the case for others...one mans trash is another mans treasure comes to mind.

Another intriguing aspect is that we seem to replicate the duality from duality. Computers and the binary system are a extremely fundamental duality based system of comparative states...ON or OFF...electronics, lights, and experiences...the yin and yang interpretive system we have accepting and rejecting simultaneously.

in computers the flow of electrons or lack there of creates the on and off states...these state producing functions...not much different than how we navigate life...(+) and (-)being of individual interpretation...individual life paths/decisions chosen by navigating a series of (+) and (-) judgement...

I will do this because its (+) and will not do this because its (-) the experience is a result of these duality based judgement...

crusades/wars launched through the judgement of evil...a choice of belief that determines actions. Even though the (N) or axis-reference perspective realizes that both side of any conflict self-reference themselves as (+) and outer-reference as (-).

our decisions and choices hinging our our perspectives that reinforces our polarized judgement that move us through this plane of experience.

Reminds me a little bit of Pythagoras a2+b2=c2....but instead of calculating the third side of a triangle you are calculating relative perspectives...where A and B are interchangeable just as our judgement of good and evil...Hitler thought what he was doing was for the greater good...he had a severe case of self-reference perspective...some could argue the current US government has an even more severe case of self-reference perspective.

reply to post by Sly1one


I wish I didn't have to run because we definitely need to chat more. There is a 4th and 5th category beyond self-reference, outside-reference, and axis-reference. Basically we can break up axis-reference into two other possibilities (which gets to your idea of how "we seem to replicate the duality from duality.") The fourth you can think of as the "nihilist perspective" that rejects (+ exclusive or -), (+ or -), as well as (+ and -), and insists none of the above. The last is an omni-perpsective that accepts all positions as having validity.

wikipedia.org...

If you have the time I strongly recommend checking the last two links in the second post of the other thread. I'll come back later because this is a subject that I think has major ramifications for how we interact as humans.

reply to post by Xtraeme


Looking forward to your return. I have several other examples I would like to explore with you as well...a couple in particular being Schrodinger's cat...and the double slit experiential.

I will read through the links you suggested in the mean time

Excellent thread. Thanks for sharing.

Michael Talbot gives an interview on Thinking Allowed that I would recommend (Particularly the points he gives on perspective). Talbot's book is an amazing work as well.

reply to post by Sly1one


" which way is this image spinning? "

It is Spinning Clock Wise , and Counter Clock Wise . It is a Vortex .

reply to post by usernamehere


I've read the holographic universe at least 3 times now...and yes it is amazing. I also recommend this youtube series on it.



a great movie concept about this is The 13th floor, which I personally love.

Thanks for sharing!!

reply to post by Zanti Misfit




Very good it is a vortex I made this image with about 60 layers and only 3 frames.

EVERYTHING about this image is in a ratio of 3. even the amount of frames and layers used to make the animation.

I composed the layers of a square starting at 900x900pixels.

Each layer reduced the size of the square by 33% and rotated it by 33 degrees in relation to the previous layer.

I can tell you that this image pretty much made itself...I had no idea what it was going to look like as I was creating it...I was just following the numbers and ratios of 3,6,9.

this image was reduced to 600x600 for posting purposes.

Sly1one

primalfractal
reply to post by Sly1one

 

But isn't there also a truth to things that is irrelevant of perspective? Facts, when something appears the same from all angles and those who see different are wrong. Say a person sees me and mistakes me for someone else and I am unable to convince them otherwise, they are still wrong and their perspective is an illusion.

So I think you have a valid point but I also believe, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.

edit on 2-10-2013 by primalfractal because: (no reason given)

It SEEMS as though there is an outside orientation that is the correct orientation to something...we call this the "TRUTH"...I'm not sold on this idea quite yet as there is this huge variable called "interpretation".

Personally I get the feeling that this 3D world we call "real" is just one hell of an illusion that we can't see past due to our limited perspective...color spectrum etc...

because of our limited perspective we come up with interesting "tools" that we think are factual....like the concept of TIME...which is really dynamic and once again...changes depending on perspective, much like...illusions.

Our perspective is for the most part limited to a grain of sand...we send probes and satellites out from this grain of sand and WHALA...a new perspective forms and all that we once knew...changes once again. Very few have the ability to see these perspectives MENTALLY without having to physically go there...Einstein was notorious for this and he called them thought experiments. Its how he came up with Relativity...he would think of the perspective of a photon travelling at light speed through the cosmos etc.

The expanding perspective being the ability to view earth from outside of it...astronauts call this the overview effect.


So while there SEEMS to be a truth outside of us it also seems like a dynamic "truth" that keeps changing...but really IT doesn't change...WE DO...our perspectives change based on how we orient ourselves to things...

Einstein's relativity involved physics...perspectology is much like psychological relativity. Psychology being as much a part of the reality we are experiencing as anything else.

Cool video, would be amazing to see the earth from up there.

Certainly anything we see as "truth" is likely only a part of something bigger we don't yet comprehend... the bigger truth. Agree we live in an illusion, full of more illusions but I think there is also an underlying reality.

Doesn't illusion, or "not truth" posit the existence of truth from the perspective of duality?

In my example I referenced myself and my own internal perception of who I am against someone else's outside perspective in order to avoid the paradox.

Seen the Chaplin vid before and find it fascinating, I wonder if schizophrenia allows you to see through illusions and if this is connected to mystical states, especially in Siberian and Australian shamanism, its a lot like controlled schizophrenia apparently. We even add a protruding nose?

I think the illusions are actually in a different category to the giffs and the bike wheel, which exhibit true duality, although the illusions are interesting in regards to perception to.

Cant perceive it spinning both ways at the same time, wonder if its possible.

Zanti Misfit
reply to post by Sly1one

 

" which way is this image spinning? "

It is Spinning Clock Wise , and Counter Clock Wise . It is a Vortex .

I can get the lady to reverse every turn.

If I circle my finger in front of my nose I can almost hold the perception of both directions at once, but not quite, still get the off/on, gonna keep trying, could balance the brain maybe... or give me a headache

Definately got me thinking, thanks.

reply to post by primalfractal


Yes the concept of Reality and Illusion define each-other only by their 180 degree relationship so you are correct that if everything is an illusion a "reality" has to be somewhere...and that is where I feel the double-slit experiment comes into play a bit.

Lets say that before a choice, decision, or belief is made there is a "zone of contemplation" which in this example will be an analogy for the wave funcion. This zone of contemplation hasn't made any conclusions about anything yet and is the most objective and neutral your mental space can be...its kinda like axis-reference perspective all interpretations or potentialities are equally possible at this point.

From this zone of contemplation or axis of consciousness we decided to MOVE out of that neutral objective space and into a duality based judgement. this judgement finalizes the choice, decision, or belief and pretty much collapses the wave function into a particle experience.

The difference between illusion and reality being merely a degree of judgement or lack there of...they are merely two different states...one contemplative and the other defined.

There are 3 parts to which we were only aware of 2
From which we had a (TOT) "this OR that" perspective...
From the 3rd pov its apparent it is also (TAT) this AND that...

Its like you and your neighbor are arguing over a 6 foot fence about who has the greenest grass...and all you have is a small peep hole in the fence from which to view each-others yards...

Due to their inherent lack of higher-perspectives they will be making judgement s, decisions, choices from their lower perspectives and their interpretation of this limited perspective is very REAL to them...because they are within the limited space.

The guy sitting on the fence is getting a front row lesson in perspective...from the most objective neutral perspective possible. Hes also probably laughing at the crusade they are both launching and defending on one another...