We do??!! We will??!! News to me. For some strange reason you assume that we wring our hands hoping for failure so that we can feel vindicated. You are drawing conclusions without any kind of support of your claims. I'm actually a little insulted that you would even say this.

Statements like this make no sense, write it again so I know what you are implying.

Why do you feel the need to align those in disagreement with war with these people? You are losing credibility very quickly here...

umm, they're terrorists.

.....and I don't blame him one little bit. If this account is true, right or wrong, I'd have done the same thing were I faced with the same situation.
*yawn*

You are going to have to define "They" in this sentence. I certainly don't regard him as anything but a terrorist. The whole Israel/Palestine mess is more than I wish to debate, as I believe both are dreadfully guilty of horrible things, regardless of who is defending what.

If you wish to debate this, ok fine. If you insist on continuing to make illogical blanket statements and accusations, you may as well just tell everyone that you don't know what you are talking about and want so badly to be a part of this conversation that you would resort to insults and ignorant innuendo.
I have said this before and will say it again, I wish we had never gotten mixed up in this mess, but we are there, so let’s get the job done so our soldiers can come home. My issues are not with them but with our leadership.

BG

Beergoggles,


I can understand your viewpoint some, I am doing some research on Radical Islam ($50 in books) so that I can more fully understand why we are in Iraq. I was for the war fro the get go, but you must understand that we are at war, and whether anyones admitts it, Saddam was part of that war.

As for the soldier, I too would have done that if my friend was just killed by a booby trapped or a faking insurgent.

I started to make this reply in a private U2U to you ed, but decided to take it like a man and do it in the forum.

This argument/debate is getting out of hand.

Through our discussions I am starting to understand your views also. While I do not necessarily subscribe to them, I admit that I do have a better understanding for what you are trying to get across and I respect you for standing for your beliefs.

If there is a way to separate the religious and political aspects of this debate, I believe that the discussion will take a turn towards civility and maybe I will learn something.
It is in the religious aspect of this where things get ugly. Oddly enough, I am neither Christian nor Muslim, and yet I will generally defend the rights of either to practice their views and abhor generalizations concerning beliefs. I am neither a pacifist nor a “peacenick”, believe me, I just disagree with the way things were done.

Respectfully,
BG

Stop right there Radical Islam might have let you understand the Afghani conflict (remember the taliban or that down the memory hole already), but the fact that you are studying it to understand Iraq shows you have lapped up all of the spin the papers have been pushing your way!
Iraq under Saddam was one of the most western and secular states in the region! Ok now that Saddam has gone all the repressed Molsems are coming out from under their rocks.. but the resistance is just that, RESISTANCE TO AN OCCUPYING FORCE and therefore has PRIMARALY nothing to do with fundementalism allthough that dose have a small role somewhere.

[edit on 17/11/2004 by Corinthas]

Beergoggles

I'm just using the same blanketing comments that most of the liberals on ATS use against Conservatives like ed and I. I can understand that this doesn't imply to all liberals. It is "them" who seem hell bent on placing all conservatives in the "blinded by hate war monger" category.

For the most part that thread was more a crack on the media and those going along with the ride. Can you tell me the last time you heard any good news about our troops over there? I'm pretty sure some good stuff is happening, you'll just never hear about unless you dig for hours and hours through the internet.

and by the way, my credibility was already questioned after my very first post here at ATS. You know why? Because I said I disagree. I said I was voting for Bush. I said I was a Republican.

But I stuck around because I for some reason couldn't handle seeing my president ridiculed unabashed, someone had to stay here to make sure their cracks and jokes and half-truth facts were kept in check.

Hey ed, have you heard about E. Gores new hate speech he gave the other night? Looks like the liberals are resorting to an all time low

The pacifism right now is a way to accentuate people's disgust with the unjust war. If Iraqi warships were cruising just off shore San Fran, and Iraqi paratroopers dropping in NJ, you'd see same college kids fighting to death to defend the great nation that the US is.

What is self-destruction and doom for America, to borrow your phrase, is continuing to be a proxy army to Israel, be subservient to Ariel Sharon and therefore produce policies in the Middle East that create million enemies by the hour. Physically eliminating the Muslim population doesn't seem possible, unless you, Edsinger, resort to construction of concentration camps, which I'm sure you are considering.


[edit on 17-11-2004 by Aelita]

I have not read all the responses, nor am I going to....I already know it'll be the same rhetoric from both sides.....especially from certain people. What I want to say though, is this "peacenik" crap is just that....BS! I'm so sick of it. There must be balance in all things. You can not have a nation full of nothing but kill, kill, kill....yes, I think any intelligent human being knows that there are times when one MUST without a doubt fight for what's right or to defend family and home, freedoms, but by no means is every fight that the U.S. gets into coverable by those descriptions. There has to be your so called "peaceniks" which is a bit of a childish, and ridiculous way to describe someone by the way...as I doubt there exist "any" true "peaceniks" in this country. As much as one can spit out this peacenik bs...one can do just the opposite too, and back and forth and back again......There must be people who defend peacefulness, there must be those that care about our air, our water.....because perhaps some do not have children or grandchildren and just spout off the typical bs about, "I don't care, I won't be around by then", many of us do and I for just one of many, care about the world my grandchildren will have to live in. If there were not those that care about peace, environment etc....those that don't would have the planet and it's inhabitants, human and animal kingdom....doomed. We need both sides of this argument to keep balance, so stop labeling and name calling. It is changing nothing and both sides will not change.

EDIT: Well for Pete's sake...I just noticed who started this whole thread. Nuff said. I'm getting to where I don't even read what he says anymore ....it's all the same crap wraped up differently

[edit on 11/17/2004 by LadyV]

Do you have a link to E. Gores speech? and who is E. Gores? eeyore? I didn't realize that he was involved in this mess.

BG

Just reading some of the posts here in relation to the justification of entering Iraq ( yes is ee-rak, not eye-rak!!) and imposing western political theory and the false pretense of 'Democracy' on a country which, for thousands of years survived quite well with a process of Tribal representation...and quite frankly, I am appalled that there are a number of neo-conservative 'Fascists' out there who are still believing the rubbish that their administration is brainwashing them with...

I think that some of you guys need to watch the BBC's 'Politics of Fear' series - which, through all intents and purposes, I can provide on a DVD (courtesy of the very generous 'Spyke - cheers matey!!)

If some of you can try and look past the wranglings of your 'Republican Fox Network' and see the administration for what it really is, then one would see the 'Leibensraum' type politics that these nutty evangelists are adopting....

God help us in the rest of the world - now even Colin Powell has gone!!

NO kidding? With a Christain as his top aide? (Aziz)

Saddam alos funded some of these terrorists and gave them refuge. You seem to not care about that one. He also plotted against the Unites States in every way he could which is somewhat understandable as we held him accountable. This resistance is not just to US troops occupying Iraq, it is a chance for Islamic Fundementalism to attack America on its home turf. Remember Osama wants to show that America is weak and cannot take sustained casulties, which by the reactions of most on the board (he might be right). This war will not end in Iraq, nor Afghanistan. It will only win when it is either crushed or we meet Osama's (or his replacement) critera. read his declaration of war on the united states in 1998 and what his terms are.






Nope post a link....






So what we abandon Isreal? The UN set it up and as soon as it declared itself, it was attacked and continued to be until the US made it so militarily strong that the only way to wipe the Isrealis from the map is terrorism. THe whole arab world cannot defeat them militarily..

Isreal has my support........They offered the Palestinians damn near everything and yet they said no.

You hate Jews dont you?

I agree, however, I think the point was that they offered everything but what the Palestinians really wanted.

BG

Which is the complete distruction of the Jewish state, Arafat said so many times. This outcome is unacceptable imho.

edsinger:

PROVE Saddam funded various terrorists. You keep parroting the same old stupid lies that have been disproven for months now, of which you're obviously totally oblivious.



Um, no. This resistance IS to the U.S. troops. Why would you say that the British suffer PHENOMENALLY less casualties than the United States military? Are all these "insurgents" also Islamiz fundamentalists? No, most of them ARE followers of Islam, yes, but they just want their country back and are willing to die for it.

0.5% of the resistance is murdering scum, the rest are people with no other choice as they see it, imho.


I am a "peacenik". I think war is wrong, brutal, and mostly unnecessary. ESPECIALLY this one.

Your arguments are the same tired reruns, ed, you never seem to learn anything new, and your mind remains as closed and as empty as ever.



Well how exciting, if not accurate. "In every way he could"? What does that mean, exactly? Proof please.

Have a good day.

jako

Oh really? Like you ahve all the answers huh? Stupid lies that you choose to call as such, hmmm. You dont think he funded them? You really ask that question? Look for the threads on oil-for-food for one. Disproven my ass!






Well the Brits get less for 2 reasons, one they have 10 times LESS troops there, 2nd, they are in #e areas, not Sunni....except for a small unit recently.




Only 0.5%? You have to be kidding right?




I think you are way off base, but admitting you are a peacenick means that your perspective is set....



[edit on 18-11-2004 by edsinger]

[edit on 18-11-2004 by edsinger]

small unit??
850 is small?
compared to what? the 7th cav?
also way off base?
BTW can i ask how the US people are represented if the pres picks his cabinet?

[edit on 18-11-2004 by devilwasp]

[edit on 18-11-2004 by devilwasp]

I'm not a hippie or a tree-hugger or a feminist. I'm not a liberal.

I'm a Constitutionalist and a Christian.

Having said that, I find it pretty hypocritical that we're forcing freedom (haha) on Iraq (and violating the Constitution to do so) and our freedoms are being taken away here at home.

What is wrong with this picture?

Wow 850! I didnt think that unit was that big, sorry.

Look the Brits got the South (primarily #e) The Sunnis are the ones that lost power remember. Look I am taking nothing away from the Brits contribution, just the question was asked about the difference in casulty rates.

Well we live in a bad world dear, we can only wait until HIS return to see true peace....

Live by the Gun and Die by the gun.

Ever have a bullet go by your face? It's like you feel a grashopper go by you at lightning speed, with no sound. You can only feel the vibration. Then seconds later you hear a pop pop pop like fireworks.

That's what it's like. Lot's of gangs where I grew up and I rolled with one too. I can fight I can kill and I'm not afraid to either. Shooting eachother in the streets is stupid though. If you have a gun but no political ideology you should be only a hunter of animals but sadly many of our citizens in the USA just have guns for having guns (aka protection, power and so on...)

EdSinger I am not a Peacenick nor a Pacifist. If you could label me as anything you would have to label me either an enemy or a true patriot. However you come to judge me by you will only have these 2 options.

Not at all, just misguided is what I feel you are, but you are so entitled.