Mark 4:11-12 : The myth that Jesus came to save all sinners

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
- Mark 4:11-12

Clearly, Jesus intended that only a select few get his message.
He was preventing the others from being forgiven, which is pretty ironic considering Christians believe Jesus came to save everybody from sin. If this verse wasn't the result of a mistranslation or textual corruption, then I don't know why Jesus did such a thing, but I fully believe that Jesus knew what he was doing.

Either way, I have three simple questions for Christians, especially those who believe that Jesus came to save all sinners.

1. Why didn't Jesus want the others to convert and be forgiven of their sins?
2. How could a Christian honestly say that Jesus came to save everybody from sin, when he clearly didn't want some to be forgiven of their sins?
3. If those same people accepted that Jesus died on the cross for their sins (according to sin sacrifice theology), wouldn't that foil Jesus' plan to keep them from being forgiven?

I believe these are some extremely simple questions that can be addressed directly, so please do so.


Discuss!

1. Why didn't Jesus want the others to convert and be forgiven of their sins?
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First Yahoshua didn't convert anyone before the crucifixion. Convert means turn to .It is essentially the same meaning as repent..change.Salvation/deliverance is a process of change/growth not an event that changes someone instantly.

Forgiven is another poorly understood word in context.It doesn't mean pardon of guilt.Everyone is accountable for all they do.Forgiveness means .. freed from bondage..
These words have much different connotations than what they were written or meant.It ties in with this whole passage.Yahoshua deliberately was withholding the meaning because the father told him to only teach in parables(He ONLY did what the father said) that no one would understand(and still don't).They can only be revealed by the father.

The disciples didn't even know what the parables where about until later.Yahoshua clearly said ..do not throw your pearls before the swine.The blind (the religious) we to remain blind until the father "drew" them.It has always been the same.

Flesh and blood cannot reveal these things only the father can.That is exactly what Yahoshua told Peter when he asked him who Peter thought Yahoshua was.Yahoshua response has nothing to do with the false doctrine of the RCC that Peter is the rock /foundation of the church.That is proof how only the father can reveal the truth and man makes up religion.He has given the religious over to a strong delusion that they would believe a lie..religion.All religion.
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2. How could a Christian honestly say that Jesus came to save everybody from sin, when he clearly didn't want some to be forgiven of their sins?
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The Christian doctrine of this is false.They say with their lips that Jesus is "savior but don't know because they believe in hell and Jesus only saves some from hell. Nothing could be further from the Truth ...which is a false doctrine all it's own.Yahoshua's name is the nature of God and means God is salvation.There are a multitude of scriptures that clearly state Yahoshua is the savior of ALL mankind... not some.

Again he is saving all mankind however the majority of the many are called are not be saved now to the point of forgiveness.The are still bound in bondage to religion.The many are called that remain hell believers will not be forgiven in this age nor the one to come because they commit blasphemy of the Holy spirit.They will receive salvation and be freed from bondage but not now.They are blinded to this by the strong delusion of religion and believe they serve God.It is the same now as it was then.

3. If those same people accepted that Jesus died on the cross for their sins (according to sin sacrifice theology), wouldn't that foil Jesus' plan to keep them from being forgiven?

Believing a doctrine doesn't mean anything.That isn't what saves anyone. By grace(the action of salvation) through faith (God given faith) is mankind saved.Mankind can do NOTHING to be saved.God is doing it all.There is nothing anyone can do anymore than a zygote can cause it's growth and birth.

Mankind has NO idea what is going on and is in complete ignorance until God reveals himself and that revelation is NEVER through religion.Religion is the sin(falling short of the mark of perfection/maturity) God is saving/curing mankind of.

That is all in the parables of Yahoshua.The parable of the soils and seed being the cornerstone parable which your original passage is in relationship to.

Yahoshua is the seed..the living word of God... that is sown in ALL of mankind.The different soils are the different stages of salvation.Until the seed is sown in the good soil they have no ears to hear revelation from the father.

Yahoshua's death was not the barbaric blood sacrifice the Christians believe. He was murdered because mankind hates God.The religious would do the same thing today.There was no magic in Yahoshuas blood or DNA as the mystics falsely believe.
Yahoshua was the seed..the second Adam..the spirit man sown in the soil(dirt which mean adamah..man).He died just like a seed must die before it becomes a tree so it can produce fruit and that fruit produces more good trees and more good fruit..on and on.

He was doing what God has always done..caused life to be born from himself.Yahoshua is the seed being sown in all mankind to be born anew...in spirit.It is as simple and infinitely complicated as that.Just like physical birth was "miraculous but it is now known so was this birth be known.But not until they are born anew and mature.

The disciples were the first fruit from the first fruit(Yahoshua the seed)..they are the first fruit that matured to KNOW God.Preaching The gospel is a proclamation of what is happening ..the Kingdom of God is In your midst it doesn't "cause" it like the religious believe by proselytizing their false religion.God is doing it all.The miracle of birth in everyone all in their own order.

This is all hidden to those that are blind and will continue to be.It will be argued endlessly with hermeneutics, exegesis, eschatology and theology not even invented but it will all be wrong....revelation ONLY comes by the "living" word of God..from the father.It is NOT in the scriptures or anywhere to be found by mans futile efforts of religion.

Yahoshua has not failed in the least.The Kingdom of God is being formed in your midst as the seed whether its sown in soil that is wayside,rocky or thistles and thorns or good.That's the gospel.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Meaning: (Them - with Jesus), the one's who have been following and learning from Jesus already know the truth and understand, (Them - non-followers of Jesus) Jesus speaks in parables, this is done so that they may seek truth and understanding.

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Meaning: (Them - non-followers of Jesus), if they seek and find truth and understanding in what Jesus was teaching, they to will be converted and sins forgiven.

Bottom Line: Everyone has the chance to be converted and forgiven, but it requires seeking truth and understanding from the teachings of Jesus, which is within the Bible. His dying on the cross is to cover for those sins of the one's converted.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Rather simple to answer if you had bothered to even read Mark 3. Taking a verse or two out of context in order to start a discussion is blatant baiting at worst and ignorance of the word at best. Read the book and even try to get a rudimentary understanding rather than start an argument.

I will not provide you with the answer to your questions. It is up to you to read for yourself as the answers are clearly stated in the book.

reply to post by pstrron

Rather simple to answer if you had bothered to even read Mark 3.

I have more than a passing acquaintance with Christianity and the gospels. So please stop with the posturing and address the questions, thank you.

The premise is simple, if Jesus came to save everybody from sin, then why was Jesus trying to make sure some people DON'T get forgiven of their sins. And, no I'm not looking for a convoluted interpretation of chapter 3 to answer a dilemma in chapter 4.

I will not provide you with the answer to your questions. It is up to you to read for yourself as the answers are clearly stated in the book.

The answer in the book is that Jesus did not come to "save everybody from sin", or Jesus would not have prevented those people from being forgiven.

reply to post by Shdak

Everyone has the chance to be converted and forgiven, but it requires seeking truth and understanding from the teachings of Jesus, which is within the Bible. His dying on the cross is to cover for those sins of the one's converted.

Theres a problem with that. Jesus made sure that not everybody understood his parables.

So Jesus did not give those people a chance to convert and be forgiven, instead he made sure that they remain in sin, and therefore unforgiven. Its not exactly something to be expected from someone who is supposed to save everybody from sin.

reply to post by Rex282


I appreciate the time and effort you have put into your reply, but I'll just address some of your points.

There are a multitude of scriptures that clearly state Yahoshua is the savior of ALL mankind... not some.

I'd like to believe that, but if he was the savior of all mankind, why was he trying to prevent those people from converting and being forgiven of their sins.

The are still bound in bondage to religion.The many are called that remain hell believers will not be forgiven in this age nor the one to come because they commit blasphemy of the Holy spirit.They will receive salvation and be freed from bondage but not now.They are blinded to this by the strong delusion of religion and believe they serve God.It is the same now as it was then.

"Bondage of religion"? "delusion of religion"?
You seem to have a problem with religion... but what do you think believing in God and having a holy book is? I'm sorry, you are speaking from your own opinion.

And you say that those who believe in hell aren't going to be forgiven? Then why does the Bible teach about hell, causing people to believe in hell in the first place?

Yahoshua's death was not the barbaric blood sacrifice the Christians believe. He was murdered because mankind hates God.

I agree Jesus' "death" according to the Bible was not a sacrifice, but rather an execution because some people wanted him dead. But murdered because "mankind hates God" is a little.... over-dramatic. There were plenty of people who love God.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I'll repeat, the questions posted are extremely simple :

1. Why didn't Jesus want the others to convert and be forgiven of their sins?

2. How could a Christian honestly say that Jesus came to save everybody from sin, when he clearly didn't want some to be forgiven of their sins?

3. If those same people accepted that Jesus died on the cross for their sins (according to sin sacrifice theology), wouldn't that foil Jesus' plan to keep them from being forgiven?

All these can be answered directly, without convoluted theology and guesswork.

Personally, I'd be wary of any "savior from sin" who picks and chooses who he wants to "save". But its clear that Jesus never came to "save everybody from sin", or he wouldn't have prevented those people from being forgiven of their sin.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


For the same reason this verse states that we were not ready yet.

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

3000 years (3 Days) must pass before salvation is given. That is the three days that passes to raise the temple that was destroyed in the first century. I am not referring to the material temple. This was Jesus body. To die for our sins and raise on the third day, three thousand years must pass.

Hosea 6

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Israel was revived after two days (1948), then after three days, they are raised. In the mean time, the saints from the church will rise.

Hebrews 9

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Why do so many miss the fact that we will not find salvation until the end of another 1000 years? Simple. You must be born again. Your person will live once. The soul that all persons come from lives forever. We, who are many, are ONE loaf.

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

Just as your body is one body made of many cells, the Son of God is many persons from one soul. Just as the Son of God is many persons, God is ONE God. We are all cut from the same loaf.

You WILL be born again and again. Salvation from the process comes at the end.

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Because Christ gave of Himself, we are alive today as individuals. That overall temple will once again rise as the ARK that takes us home from the flood of baptism. The flood story of Noah is only a parable of this process of gathering the clean and unclean beasts. The clean beasts are the house of Israel. The unclean are the gentiles. Notice that he took unclean beasts in various numbers, but clean two by two. Who was really saved on that ark? Noah and his family represent eight and not twelve.

In the wilderness with Moses, how many made it to the other side? The next generation made it after 40 years. Most of the first generation died. Moses was forced to stay on the other side.

All of this has meaning to the end of the story for mankind, but we don't really see the meaning ourselves. We can speculate, but not fully know until all things are explained over the next 1000 years while Satan is bound. The book of Enoch has a parable about the beasts of the field. Each is a comparison to mankind.

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

I'll repeat, the questions posted are extremely simple :

1. Why didn't Jesus want the others to convert and be forgiven of their sins?

2. How could a Christian honestly say that Jesus came to save everybody from sin, when he clearly didn't want some to be forgiven of their sins?

3. If those same people accepted that Jesus died on the cross for their sins (according to sin sacrifice theology), wouldn't that foil Jesus' plan to keep them from being forgiven?

All these can be answered directly, without convoluted theology and guesswork.

Personally, I'd be wary of any "savior from sin" who picks and chooses who he wants to "save". But its clear that Jesus never came to "save everybody from sin", or he wouldn't have prevented those people from being forgiven of their sin.

edit on 30-9-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Answer to 1,2 & 3...

Whoever interpreted/reinterpreted said concepts (including the illuminated on these boards) needed built-in obsolescence/repeat customers/push&pull...

Saviour mechanisms are not needed when there is no adversary...and claiming the ALMIGHTINESS of GOD - then claiming an adversary worthy to come even close to challenge is denying ALMIGHTINESS...some might want to think about this...but then, we wouldn't want the carnival house of horrors to collapse, would we?...

Å99

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I'm sorry, I didn't ask for a theology lesson. Those scriptures are unrelated to the verse in question and really does not address the 3 questions I raised.

Let me simplify... why would Jesus, "savior from sin", try to make sure that some people don't get forgiven from their sin?

And how come all those people who preach about being saved from sin by Jesus, don't quote those verses in Mark 4? Its a scriptural anomaly that is left out by evangelists and preachers, because it doesn't sit well with the plot that Jesus was supposed to "save all". The only logical answer is that Jesus was simply not on a mission to "save everybody from sin".

Why would Jesus take the effort to prevent some people from being forgiven only to give them an easy way of being "saved" by his "sacrifice"? It makes zero sense.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


"The only logical answer is that Jesus was simply not on a mission to "save everybody from sin"." Quote sk0rpi0n

...or that the interpretation of 'sin' used like a Jenga block to hold all this together is erroneous...

Å99

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Read my last post to get what I will say next. If the Son of God formed Adam, then Adam held the seeds of humanity to follow. We, who are many, are from ONE loaf. What happens next after Adam?

Genesis 6

6 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

Other Sons of God spread seed on Earth. Now there are more loaves present in the system. We also get this story from Enoch. Are there direct parallels? How many years does God give mankind before judgment? 120. That's in Jubilee years. 120 X 50 is 6000. What did Enoch say?

Enoch One

s. And the Lord said unto Michael: Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves 12 with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is 13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and 14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemnedand destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all 15 generations. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because 16 they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore.

Examine the process. 70 generations is the precession of the Earth divided by 360. 29520 years divided by 360 is 72. A generation of that precession is 72. Take 70 X 72 and you get 5040. That leaves Enoch's age past Adam to add. 5040 + 950 is 6000.

Next in this progression is the flood. The flood kills off most of the Nephilim and Noah's family is saved. Did this actually happen, or was the flood code for baptism on earth? The point is to save those who repent and allow the flood to carry off the others when fire comes to cleanse the Earth. The plant of righteousness appeared 2000 years ago. His main focus was to reveal the truth behind baptism. The flood of waters is that process. Many of my past threads outline this flood of souls to Earth as a refinery. You must be born again. You are locked in darkness because you are a cross between Angel and beast. We are the children of the watchers. We are offered salvation if we allow the refinement to occur. Each of the eight that were saved on the Ark represents a Son of God. The beasts that ride along are their children that are saved from the process. In the end, this is a large part of humanity if we repent. Each of us have an angel in heaven facing God.

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Keep in mind, this is all parable. It is not stating that we are literally in a flood. Our soul enters this place as an image (matrix). We are here as a shadow of our soul above. That souls is an Angel facing God. We are the children below being raised back to God. For whatever reason, other Sons of God spread their seed among this field. This is the problem that is being solved. It's rebellion against God. We find this in the Virgin of the World document.

Then, having summoned to these splendid regions of ether the souls of every
grade, He said to them: "O souls, beautiful children of my breath and of my care, you
whom I have produced with my hands, in order to consecrate you to my universe, hear
my words as a law: – Quit not the place assigned to you by my will. The abode which
awaits you is heaven, with its galaxy of stars and its thrones of virtue. If you attempt
any transgression against my decree, I swear by my sacred breath, by that elixir of
which I formed you, and by my creative hands, that I will speedily forge for you chains
and cast you into punishment."

Just as Adam and Eve were given a directive to keep away from technology (Fruit of Knowledge), the Sons were told to keep within the domain God set for them to reside. Instead, they moved above from planet to planet and galaxy to galaxy.

Forthwith, O my Son, proud of their work, they were not afraid to transgress the
Divine law, and, in spite of the prohibition, they receded from their appointed limits. Not
willing to remain longer in the same abode, they moved ceaselessly, and repose
seemed to them death. (1)
But, O my Son – (thus Hermes informed me) – their conduct could not escape
the eye of the Lord God of all things; He minded to punish them, and to prepare for
them hard bonds. The Ruler and Master of the universe resolved then for the penance
of the souls, to mould the human organism, and having called me to
(p. 9)
Him, said Hermes, He spoke in this wise: – "O soul of my soul, holy thought of my
thought, how long shall earthly Nature remain sad? How long shall the creation already
produced continue inactive and without praise? Bring hither before me all the Gods of
heaven."

Put it all together and you see the overall picture. We are the Children of various principalities and powers above. God is giving them a chance to repent. In the end, we reflect our Angel above. Below, we have the opportunity to move our own seed back to the Son of God that is righteous. We are grafted in to the original, even if we are one of the unclean beasts.

simple, he didn't come to save everyone, he was a builder from a a backwater town who voiced his opinions in a period of political turmoil, these ideals became a movement far bigger than himself giving the poor Jews from Galilee and Judea something to believe in while under the crushing roman and elitist aristocratic Jews rule,not unlike today's standards!
Was the supernatural involved? well thats where faith comes into play.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


...it appears Skorp, that there exist a type of human,
what would appear "normal" to ús, outwardly,
but types, which perhaps we d call a "walk-in",
whose essence will Never, ever Submit.

.. 'forgiving them ' would be like ' forgiving the devil '
[since obviously those walk-ins are from that source]

hope that makes sense.

I know some people end up interpreting various verses in whatever way they decide to and for whatever reasoning. Which isn't always accurate. Also people get so bogged down sometimes with the interpretation of various verses to try and microscopically figure it all out. The simple answer is unless your a theologian where it's important to your career that you understand every aspect of every single verse in multiple launguages then all that really isn't extremely important. I'm not saying we shouldn't know our scripture either. But to say for example base your entire faith and or reason for beliving on one verse is just moronic.

Like it says the world was created in 7 days. So is that like 7 days literally or figuratively? And frankly I have no idea. Unless maybe somehow it was all done with God just pressing a fast forward button. Then when we read it we look back and see that maybe it took much longer than 7 days only that we didn't know that he pressed fast forward. so then it literally could easily be 7 days. We weren't there and therefore we'll never know. But again to base your whole faith on say for example that one verse is stupid. You shouldn't even base anything on verses. You start by simple letting go of your stupid pride and ego that's keeping you trapped, and imprisoned. Then once you do that you can actually consider getting on your knees and just saying to the creator "I don't know who you are, I'm confused, but I want to get to know you, please show me who you are and come into my life". That's where you start. But you'll never get to that point but picking apart scripture and trying to figure out what fits your agenda and what doesn't. It doesn't work that way at all.

It's like your a sims character in the sims game. And now you want to talk to the person at the computer who's just designed you as a characture. So talk to him and try and let him know that you're ready to get to know him. And when he sees your humble and honestly wanting to talk to him, then he'll listen and he'll show you who he is. But you got to humble yoruself. Your just a man. You could be deleted as quickly as you press delete to your facebook account or to your sims characture. So talk to him and stop being just a dumb character caught in the matrix.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Put it all together and you see the overall picture.

No, your nebulous and hazy post is personal theology and it is something that you have created for yourself. It doesn't address the issue I presented.

Here, let me simplify it even further.
If a famous vegetarian enjoys a juicy steak in public, would you still think of him as a vegetarian?

Similarly, Jesus in Christian theology is supposed to save everybody from sins. But in the verses I posted in the OP, Jesus is actually preventing some people from getting a chance to be forgiven of their sins.
Would you still think of him as a "savior from sin"?

Examine the process. 70 generations is the precession of the Earth divided by 360. 29520 years divided by 360 is 72. A generation of that precession is 72. Take 70 X 72 and you get 5040. That leaves Enoch's age past Adam to add. 5040 + 950 is 6000.

Why do I get the feeling that you are just copy pasting material from your other threads?
Also 5040+950= 5990.

How about you at least admit you don't know? Concocting an answer doesn't help anything.

When the student is ready for higher level awareness and understanding then the master comes. Until then limitations and disconnection.

Why should the master talk and explain when the student is to busy with lower level awareness to see the message for what it is.

sk0rpi0n
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
- Mark 4:11-12

Clearly, Jesus intended that only a select few get his message.
He was preventing the others from being forgiven, which is pretty ironic considering Christians believe Jesus came to save everybody from sin.

Actually, no, he came to save everyone who comes to him. Saving everyone would be universal salvation and most Christians do not teach that.

You do realize that, in Mark 12, Jesus is simply quoting Isaiah, right?

He said, “Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.” (Isaiah 6:9-10 NIV)

Taken out of context it easy to draw those conclusions. Suffice to say Jesus wants all to be saved, but knew all would not be. He also knew the devil would do such a good job mudding the waters of truth that he could make that statement. I know people who accepted Jesus saving ransom, but then rejected him later in life by there actions. He also knew those types of people would exist too, he knew he could never save everybody, nevertheless it was available to all. Once saved always saved is false dogma, conjured up by prolific sinners who refuse to even try to change. There is a big difference between disqualifying major sin and minor sin. See 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11. Jesus knew people would choose to disqualify themselves by practicing major sin. If some falls victim to a major sin but then stops, the ransom covers that. What it doesn't cover is perpetual major sin where the person knows it's wrong and never even tries to stop. As the scriptures says "that's what you were".