Let's Stop Pretending that Obamacare is Socialism

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posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 09:46 PM
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A Socialist policy would be legislation that seeks to create a collectivist "solution" to a "problem" through the state at the expense of private interests. Admittedly, the original notions kicked around including the "Public Option" had a slightly more Socialistic bent and could have been seen as an important first step towards implementing a national health care system in the European/Canadian style. The final version of Obamacare is, in fact, a grotesque love letter to corporate interests in America. Its fundamentals were drafted by the Heritage Foundation and it is designed to help accelerate the consolidation of wealth in the upper 15%. Below is a list of gifts (some obvious others more covert) to the corporatocracy.

1. Forced participation in private health insurance plans. This should have sunk the bill as it is a direct violation of the commerce clause, but Chief Justice Roberts helped to bypass that by essentially re-writing the legislation from the bench. This should give you an idea of how much the Right Wing power brokers in this country wanted this thing to pass. Now, I also believe that the administration cut a deal with Roberts that they would softball on a wide range of pet social issues in exchange for his compliance, but that's a bit more speculative and not relevant to this post.

What this forced participation does it drive millions of dollars into the coffers of private insurance companies. Not just the money that you and I spend out of our own pockets, but the money spent by employers (those who opt to continue using full time workers), AND the...

2. ...Millions of dollars in government subsidies that will being "going to" low income households. Too many people are thinking about this plan in terms of hard earned tax dollars being given to the unemployed, the working poor, and various other "leeching" bogeymen that the Corporatocracy has conditioned them to fear over the years. That's nonsense. These subsidies are going to multi-billion dollar corporations in exchange for providing low quality, high-deductible insurance policies to largely healthy people who have little need or use for the plans at this time.

3. Millions more in subsidies to help pay the cost of higher risk patients. The government is going to do away with pre-existing condition exclusions and medical underwriting. That was a big part of the initial plan, and the fact that the government was essentially requiring insurance companies to make bad business decisions provided those companies with ample leverage to have the government underwrite costs. Hence the mandate and these subsidies. Let us not forget that the hundreds of thousands of dollars that you or I would have to pay for life-saving treatments often gets cut down by 70-80% after private insurance companies are through negotiating.

4. The Government as Scapegoat. This is huge, and it's a major reason why our Theatre of the Absurd Troupe on Capitol Hill is spending so much time and money making it seem that this milquetoast piece of legislation is the most intrusive thing ever to come out Washington. Anything bad about insurance moving forward will be pinned onto Obamacare. Doctors claiming they can't keep practicing if they accept the negotiated rate for services? Must be Obamacare. Nevermind that private insurance companies have long played the exact same hardball on pricing. Obamacare Death Panels! Let's just ignore that private insurance companies have for years put themselves in the position of telling your doctors what drugs they should prescribe, what procedures will be covered, and what tests are permissible. Moving forward, all the horrid crap that insurance companies have done for YEARS can be laid squarely at the feet of Federal Government.

Now, those 4 are the big obvious ways that Obamacare is a boon to the insurance industry that wrote it. Let's look at a couple of more insidious benefits to business owners.

5. Justifying the slashing of labor costs. I've talked about this before. We have reached a technological point in this country where the 40 hour work week is an obsolete antique, a product of a bygone era when population and technology were such that we needed a large percentage of our population working at least 40 hours to produce NECESSARY goods and services. This is no longer the case. Automation, the internet, and outsourcing, have spawned a country where people fill their 40 hour work week with more padding and busywork than ever before. This is because the powers that be could not risk a world in which people could simultaneously pay for the necessities of life AND have the time and energy to better their lot in life. This has left business owners of every shape and size with a social obligation to offer 40 hour work weeks.

At no point in the world's history have so few people been able to produce so much. Yet, if an employer cuts hours and staff purely in the name of greater efficiency and profit, they are demonized and productivity suffers. Now that they can point to the Obamacare bogeyman, businesses are free to pull all the horrific crap that they have wanted to do for years, all while playing the victim rather than the robber baron.

6. Reducing costs for employers. A sub-set of five, really, but the simple fact that employers can cut hours (or use "temps" and staffing agencies, another loophole in this massive cash giveaway) and avoid, not only the cost of providing health care, but also bypass the relatively nominal penalties involved with not offering benefits, this is going to end up fattening the bottom line of many companies.

7. The Bogeyman made real. In post recession America, the prospect of unemployment has been enough to keep plenty of people locked in jobs that they hate, doing more work for functionally less money. With Obamacare bogeyman on the horizon, that strangehold is only going to strengthen. Those who are in gigs with benefits will fear that they will never find another position that offers health insurance. Full timers will hear tales of landscape littered with part time work.

Plus all the weird little bits of language they scattered in there to keep people on high alert. The talk of in-home checks and all of that. The Government has been actively trolling the CT community for years. Bush I referenced the "New World Order", Clinton was in tight with the Bilderbegs, Bush/Cheney unleashed the Patriot Act, Obama's been a bit more subtle, signing 23 executive orders on gun control in the wake of Newtown. They know how to tweak people. But don't worry, they won't take your guns. They'll also never quite give you an excuse to open fire. They want you tense and worried but remaining in your homes, not in the streets. Everything is Under Control.

We are entering into a new era of indentured servitude and it will not be that we are beholden to the state like in Socialist or Communist regime. We will be at the mercy of our corporate overlords. The industrial machine will keep the people weak and scared. While the government beats the drums of war and nationalism (though we like to call it American Exceptionalism). This is not Socialism. This is not Communism. This is far closer to Fascism than any of the Leftist -isms being bandied about these days.

At least, that's my 2 cents.
edit on 29-9-2013 by RobertAntonWeishaupt because: Word choice




posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt
 


And in the end, it won't really matter. The PTB at the highest levels of this thing know how bad it can be allowed to get. They have carefully weighed and measured the point at which the system might become unstable. They won't let that happen.

For them, too much relies on us staying reasonably productive, somewhat healthy, and just content enough to sit back and watch our TV's.

We always seem to be on the verge of collapse. They like it that way. Fear and Quiet Desperation are their tools of choice. Rage and Not-So-Quiet Desperation would be the killers, and they will always keep the masses from that tipping point.



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt
 





This is far closer to Fascism than any of the Leftist -isms being bandied about these days.


Fascism IS a "Leftism" ATS


+9 more 
posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by Carreau
 


Most formal definitions of Fascism will disagree with you there. If one interprets Right Wing philosophy entirely by an emphasis on individual freedom, and Left Wing philosophy as based entirely on state intrusion, you would be correct. However, Fascism's nationalistic, militaristic, isolationist and reactionary leanings have it traditionally considered as a Right Wing philosophy. It is, historically, opposed to true Socialism and Communism (two philosophies associated with the left) and as such is typically considered to be Right Wing.

All this is kind of immaterial to the point of my original post. If all you read of interest in there was a distinction between left vs right wing philosophies, than I am afraid you are far too sucked in to the theatre of the damned duopoly that passes for political discourse in this country.
edit on 29-9-2013 by RobertAntonWeishaupt because: Grammar



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt
 


I was simply correcting a topic of another current thread that talks about the mistake made by many that fascism is a "right" ideology, when if fact it is left. And yes the ACA is a power grab and not social medicine anyone paying attention would know that. Nothing you posted is new or a revelation. Not noted in your thread is the fact that the Dems who claim that the Repubs are corp pimps, but it was the Dem who passed the law and a dem pres who signed it. There is no "left" and "right" any longer.

I know that, do you?



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 10:17 PM
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reply to post by Carreau
 


Indeed I do. It's kind of the point of the thread. I point out the problems with the ACA. It should be clear, therefore, that anyone pushing for (regardless of the letter next to their name) it is a corporate shill. Also, anyone fighting it as Socialism is either an idiot or disingenuous.

Most of the Anti-ACA threads I see on here play up the "government takeover" or "Socialism" angles. That is why I took the time to outline it in the context of a massive gift to the Corporatocracy. I'm not under the delusion that this is new or groundbreaking info, just something that should be more clearly put into the conversation.

My concern is that no one on either side of the aisle is fighting it on rational grounds, and the Socialism canard in particular is especially irritating since something more Socialistic would, in my opinion, have been better than this particular nightmare we've been given.



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 10:20 PM
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RobertAntonWeishaupt
6. Reducing costs for employers. A sub-set of five, really, but the simple fact that employers can cut hours (or use "temps" and staffing agencies, another loophole in this massive cash giveaway) and avoid, not only the cost of providing health care, but also bypass the relatively nominal penalties involved with not offering benefits, this is going to end up fattening the bottom line of many companies.


This is the part that gets to me. They cut back the hours... or drop covering employees altogether... which basically takes a job valued at 45k a year due to "benefits" and "flips the script" so to speak to stop paying the benefits thereby forcing the employees to pay after taxes in the marketplace... all in the name of the marketplace is cheaper than what we offer. So will they be handing out raises to make up the difference in their money saved? Doubt it.

The final result is the working class infighting with itself while corporate profits and the elite get all the money... and no one will complain because they think they are getting a deal. The 1% wins again.




posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by Volund
 


Bingo! And all the while our beloved "Job Creators" will lament the fact that they "have to cut back hours" because of big bad Obamacare. We'll hear all kinds of reports about lost hours and fewer full time jobs, but the MSM will be strangely quiet on the fattening bottom lines as productivity continues to grow. Still, if we keep an eye on the Dow, we'll be able to see what's up.

The stock market tells us nothing about the real economy, but it lets us know exactly how well the Corporatocracy is doing.
edit on 29-9-2013 by RobertAntonWeishaupt because: Grammar



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt
 


Look we are in total agreement that the ACA is crap from top to bottom and for the same reasons. I have no disagreement with you on the subject at all. Which is why I didn't mention anything else about it in my post.

I find it humorous that your biggest gripe with others attacking the ACA calling it Socialist when it isn't, while in the same post you misuse the term Fascist. Your point about calling something Socialist when it isn't because someone changes the definition of the word holds true for Fascism. Just because the Left has labeled another to the right they disagree with a Fascist doesn't change the real meaning of the word, it's still a Leftist ideology.



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 10:35 PM
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RobertAntonWeishaupt
reply to post by Volund
 


Bingo! And all the while our beloved "Job Creators" will lament the fact that they "have to cut back hours" because of big bad Obamacare. We'll hear all kinds of reports about lost hours and fewer full time jobs, but the MSM will be strangely quiet on the fattening bottom lines as productivity continues to grow. Still, if we keep an eye on the Dow, we'll be able to see what's up.

The stock market tells us nothing about the real economy, but it lets us know exactly how well the Corporatocracy is doing.
edit on 29-9-2013 by RobertAntonWeishaupt because: Grammar


Here is the Department of Labor Website that is full of useful things on this subject including new posters they should have hung up by now
DoL Website

And this is the part that kills me, there is a link to the form our employers were supposed to give us... but guess what, everyone I know or am acquainted with just got a vague letter they were forced to sign saying they understood what the employer had to offer and that they knew about the Marketplace. So who signed off what with these bogus letters? Check this form out because the information they were supposed to provide may send you over the top
Form for all employers offering healthcare

This is going to be an interesting week, for many reasons.
edit on 29-9-2013 by Volund because: it's grammar as usual



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 10:41 PM
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ObamaCare is Corporatist.

Corporations pimp out the Lobbyists.

Lobbyists pimp out the Politicians.

All of them post their polekats on every corner of the intersection so their armored cars can get to the bank deposit windows unabated.

The concepts of corporatism use many Marxist concepts.

PPACA=

P-iss
P-oor
A-ll
C-orporatist
A-genda




posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 10:46 PM
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We have socialist health care in Canada. Well Canada is socialistic. But the healthcare part I'm okay with. Because say your broke your arm. Do you have to also go broke and get 30,000 dollar bill because you didn't have coverage? That's dumb. Here you break an arm they repair it. You get into a car crash that leave you hospitalized for a month, no problem it's all covered for free. You cut off a limb, they sow it back on for free. In the states my understanding is you might get it done, but if you do then you go broke as a result. that's so dumb for such an advanced society. Like when I've been to the states I see such prestign everything. There malls are the best, there streets are perfect, there cars are perfect, everyones high fashion everyone seems to have money. But they don't even have health care? How dumb is that. All it is is big phrama has brainwashed everyone for so long to believe they should never allow for free healthcare. So they you got all these people that have never even tried it but think it's no good. How dumb is that. Obma care sounds pretty good if people are gonna get free healthcare.

And if you dont' believe me well it's just too bad. You'll soon have these guys knocking at your door with your new obama care!

edit on 29-9-2013 by spartacus699 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by Carreau
 


How is fascism a leftist ideology? Traditionally fascism is placed on the far-right of the political spectrum. Fascism takes principles from both the left and the right of the spectrum, but most definitely falls on the far right.

Nietzsche would laugh in your face if you told him fascism was a leftist ideology. And Orwell would be laughing too, if he saw how words got tossed around nowadays. Sick, sad laughter.



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 11:53 PM
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TinkerHaus
reply to post by Carreau
 


How is fascism a leftist ideology? Traditionally fascism is placed on the far-right of the political spectrum. Fascism takes principles from both the left and the right of the spectrum, but most definitely falls on the far right.

Nietzsche would laugh in your face if you told him fascism was a leftist ideology. And Orwell would be laughing too, if he saw how words got tossed around nowadays. Sick, sad laughter.




As a rule...

Most of the malarkey about fascism being 'right wing' *always* emanates from left wing sources.

Many of those left wing sources are well hidden, and will always 'bite' when confronted.

They fight hard when the agenda is exposed.

And like a gila monster, won't let go until sundown.



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 11:57 PM
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reply to post by spartacus699
 


But we aren't getting free healthcare. We are just mandated to PURCHASE insurance. And for many, those insurance premiums are going up. There are going to be co-pays.

All it does is mandate people have health insurance and limit your care. And care will NOT be equal.

I WISH we were getting what Canada has!



posted on Sep, 29 2013 @ 11:59 PM
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TinkerHaus
reply to post by Carreau
 


How is fascism a leftist ideology? Traditionally fascism is placed on the far-right of the political spectrum. Fascism takes principles from both the left and the right of the spectrum, but most definitely falls on the far right.

Nietzsche would laugh in your face if you told him fascism was a leftist ideology. And Orwell would be laughing too, if he saw how words got tossed around nowadays. Sick, sad laughter.

I know I have come to understand a slightly different interpretation of what fascism actually is but, the original term was associated with Mussolini's authoritarian control over all aspects of society, it is a form of totalitarianism. I consider non-smoking laws fascist as they make criminal a clearly non-criminal act for purposes loosely defined as 'our benefit'. Sounds a heck of a lot like socialism to me.



posted on Sep, 30 2013 @ 12:34 AM
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reply to post by spartacus699
 


You are sadly misinformed if you think obama are means any kind of free healthcare. It does not! As a working single mother I now will have to pay for insurance through my company or pay 1 per cent of my gross income for not having healthcare even though I make less than 12dollars an hour with multiple children I do not qualify for subsidy because my employer provides an insurance at 10per cent my gross income. So healthy me who has not seen a doctor once in the last ten years has to pay for a service I do not need . Nothing is free. Working poor and poverty level ppl will take a big hit because most states opted f2f.fh o take the federal program with no Medicaid enhancements. Meaning if you weren't eligible before Your still not .



posted on Sep, 30 2013 @ 01:11 AM
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reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt
 


Exactly. This is corporatized healthcare.
This "controversy" and left / right bs is just for show.
It's a facade to hide what is essentially a fascist (in the classical definition) healthcare system.
They all truly want it, because they are all corporatists - the American people don't get to
choose on any of the largest issues.

They throw us scraps to squabble over and call it freedom.
Well, it's more free than some things have been, that's true and I'm glad of that, but the notion of freedom they sold us never existed. We get to pick between solutions A & B when the available solutions are A - Z and 1-9. Mostly it's just frustrating when you / we know there are a lot of other options that we are not allowed to choose, democratically or otherwise. I'm not even anti-corporation, but corporatism is something else entirely. It really seems to me that it's all at least partially scripted years in advance.

And what's worse is that if you bring up any actual thoughts on obamacare, the left wingers will throw a fit because you hate the poor and obama. with the same questions the right wingers will also throw a fit about how you must be commie pos. All with the same damn question. Maybe it's not the questions that are a problem. Maybe it's everyone who sees the world through the false dem / rep paradigm.



posted on Sep, 30 2013 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by greencmp
 





Italian Fascism gravitated to the right in the early 1920s.[44][45] A major element of fascism that has been deemed as clearly far-right is its goal to promote the right of claimed superior people to dominate while purging society of claimed inferior elements.[46]
Benito Mussolini in 1919 described fascism as a movement that would strike "against the backwardness of the right and the destructiveness of the left".[47][48] Later the Italian Fascists described fascism as a right-wing ideology in the political program The Doctrine of Fascism, stating: "We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right,' a fascist century."[49][50] Mussolini stated that fascism's position on the political spectrum was not a serious issue to fascists:

Fascism, sitting on the right, could also have sat on the mountain of the center ... These words in any case do not have a fixed and unchanged meaning: they do have a variable subject to location, time and spirit. We don't give a damn about these empty terminologies and we despise those who are terrorized by these words.[51]


The word "fascism" tends to be used for whatever purpose the user would like, but the fact of the matter is that almost all fascist regimes at some point move far to the right. Even Hitler's Nazi Germany was on the far right of the political spectrum, according to most scholars and philosophers.

The major problem with true socialism is that it always turns into oppressive authoritarianism.

Regardless of these intricate details, the OP was very on target. In my opinion these labels and classifications are just a method to divide people and are mostly arbitrary.



edit on 30-9-2013 by TinkerHaus because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 30 2013 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt
 


I did not vet the following but sounds about right to me:
Your hospital Medicare admittance has just changed under Obama Care. You must be admitted by your primary Physician in order for Medicare to pay for it! If you are admitted by an emergency room doctor it is treated as outpatient care where hospital costs are not covered. This is only the tip of the iceberg for Obama Care. Just wait to see what happen in 2013 & 2014!


Age 76 Today, I went to the Dr. for my monthly B12 shot that I have been getting for a number of years. The nurse came and got me, got out the needle filled and ready to go then looked at the computer and got very quiet and asked if I was prepared to pay for it. I said no that my insurance takes care of it.


She said, that Medicare had turned it down and went to talk to my Dr. about it. 15 minutes later she came back and said, she was sorry but they had tried every-thing they could but Medicare is beginning to turn many things away for seniors because of the projected Obama Care coming in. She was brushing at tears and said, "Someday they too will get old, I am so very sorry!!"

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO LIKE THIS...


At age 76 when you most need it, you are not eligible for cancer treatment
* see page 272


What Nancy Pelosi didn't want us to know until after the healthcare bill was passed. Remember she said, "We have to pass the Bill so that we can see what's in it."



Well, here it is.


Obama Care Highlighted by Page Number


THE CARE BILL HB 3200
JUDGE KITHIL IS THE 2ND OFFICIAL WHO HAS OUTLINED THESE PARTS OF THE CARE BILL.
Judge Kithil of Marble Falls, TX - highlighted the most egregious pages of HB3200.

Please read this ....... especially the reference to pages 58 & 59

JUDGE KITHIL wrote:
**
Page 50/section 152: The bill will provide insurance to all non-U.S. residents, even if they are here illegally.

**
Page 58 and 59: The government will have real-time access to an individual's bank account and will have the authority to make electronic fund transfers from those accounts.

**
Page 65/section 164: The plan will be subsidized (by the government) for all union members, union retirees and for community organizations (such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now - ACORN).

**
Page 203/line 14-15: The tax imposed under this section will not be treated as a tax. (How could anybody in their right mind come up with that?)

**
Page 241 and 253: Doctors will all be paid the same regardless of specialty, and the government will set all doctors' fees.

**
Page 272. section 1145: Cancer hospital will ration care according to the patient's age.

**
Page 317 and 321: The government will impose a prohibition on hospital expansion; however, communities may petition for an exception.


**
Page 425, line 4-12: The government mandates advance-care planning consultations. Those on Social Security will be required to attend an "end-of-life planning" seminar every five years. (Death counseling...)

**
Page 429, line 13-25: The government will specify which doctors can write an end-of-life order.

HAD ENOUGH???? Judge Kithil then goes on to identify:

"Finally, it is specifically stated that this bill will not apply to members of Congress.” ~ Honorable David Kithilof Marble Falls, Texas

Only in America does "Health Care Reform" begin with the hiring of 16,500 new IRS agents tasked with determining whether your insurance policy merits a fine.

The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the
vigilant, the active, the brave... --Patrick Henry--





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