Here's What To Do If You're In Public And Bullets Start To Fly

A few things that you may not know.

In several States you are not allowed to move to gain a tactical advantage. This is where "Stand Your Ground" laws come into the picture.

You are not there to apprehend. You are only allowed to defend yourself and others that are near-by. This being said, keep shooting until either the attacker goes down or you run out of ammo, then run. Reloading can get you into trouble in some States as it is considered increasing your advantage. The reasonong is that if you have time to reload, you have time to run.

An AR-15, AK-47 or any other "assault" type weapon is at a disadvantage in a close in situation. Under 75 feet a pistol is the way to go. If the attacker is further that 75 feet away, you should be running not shooting.

If you ever get into a situation like the one we are discussing, remember one thing. When it is all over and if you survive, there are going to be people who will second guess your every move. Even if you were armed and did nothing, you can still be tried in the "Court of Public Opinion". People are going to have hours to decide what you should have done, while you had only seconds to act. Some reporter, politician or anti-gun activist is going to try to find something to further their agenda and if you get in the way, they won't hesitate to run all over you.

antar
...fear mongering rhetoric...

What's the point? Do you know what the chance are that you'd be caught in a public shooting? You have a better chance of being attacked by a bull shark in freshwater while being struck by lightening. Should we all prepare to wear shark-proof suits and lear to deionize our bodies to reduce the risk?

reply to post by antar


You should make a thread on what to do if you get hit by lightning, since you have a better chance of that happening than being caught in the middle of a public shooting spree.

reply to post by SadistNocturne


Well that is a good point. What is not good is how the kids ate nutella and honey sandwiches at my comp and now, the keyboard is HORRIBLE and thick, raised.

Ok back to your post, did you read the post from the Lady I believe she was from South Africa? How in a restaurant when a brick was thrown through the window she grabbed her child and took cover while the rest of the patrons just sat there dumbfounded? I think or I wonder if the people who become mesmerized, stunned, immobile become the targets more so than those who either fight back or flee, take cover or hide?

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


My Son has been struck by lightening so I hear what you are saying, I want to learn as much as I can about what people know, what they do to survive and to help others to as well, especially loved ones. I know that there is no fixed answer and i am not being unrealistic in attempting to understand this subject better, to be more prepared mentally to respond physically rather than react out of shock and stunning.

reply to post by Xterrain


With as many people 'thinking' collectively about all the violence happening in the world, and that the hive mentality could push things to a point where war is inevitable, but before that random acts of terror would happen first if what we have seen in the middle east has something to teach us.

I cant recall or remember what your post was other than sharks, lightning and making fun of me, patronizing me for wanting to gain insight to a difficult subject to discuss or consider hitting home.

reply to post by JIMC5499


Interesting, good to know. I appreciate the heads up.

reply to post by antar

to be more prepared mentally to respond physically rather than react out of shock and stunning.

That is the thing. But initially people are as prepared for your scenario as they are a car crash. It happens real sudden, is noisy and the initial reaction is fear. Some panic, some freeze.
What people first discover who aren't that familiar with firearms is that they are real loud. If someone unloads a gun or guns nearby the first thing you notice is ringing in your ears. If real close to discharges, the smell of cordite fills the air.

If your ears are ringing and you smell cordite you are in extreme danger. It is best at this point to do what someone said, dive for cover. Dive under or behind something. Do it like your life depended on it... it does.

I mean drop. The ringing in your ears and cordite smell has convinced you it isn't firecrackers or a car backfiring. If you are inside, the next best thing to being trapped inside with a deranged toad on autopilot is to get the flock out of there.

But not right away. You are on the floor with your head up, fixed gaze, trying to assess what is happening, where the danger is coming from and what others are doing about it.

If others are up and running all in one direction...

There was an incident where a guy drove thru a plate glass window at a restaurant, jumped out of the cab and began shooting people. In the back of the restaurant the people were trapped except for more plate glass. Someone threw a chair thru the window and a number of people escaped that way.

If the shooting is a bit further off (when outside) you will hear a different sound if the bullets are coming at you. It is the sound of the bullet before the shot. Crack-thump is the sound of the bullet then the sound of the shot. If you can count quickly between those two sounds, each number you reach is approximately 100 yards. Crack---123---thump means three hundred yards between you and the shooter. If simultaneous then they are close.

There is so much to relate and nobody (except veterans ) can tell instantly whats going on. A good book on the subject is a military manual written by Rex Applegate titled, "Kill or get Killed", written for soldiers in WWII facing combat in small unit operations. I know I know. But that sudden mad minute scenario is exactly what the book was written for. Lots of experience went into it from killing Japanese and Germans in all kind of close quarter situations. Pistol, knife and shoulder arms are covered as well as defensive techniques, disarming and even riot and crowd control. If its taught to the individual infantryman and police officer then its in there.

cdn.paladin-press.com...

antar
Ok back to your post, did you read the post from the Lady I believe she was from South Africa? How in a restaurant when a brick was thrown through the window she grabbed her child and took cover while the rest of the patrons just sat there dumbfounded? I think or I wonder if the people who become mesmerized, stunned, immobile become the targets more so than those who either fight back or flee, take cover or hide?

I can only imagine, if I were "looking for targets", a stunned one would be easier than one who was taking cover...



- SN

reply to post by antar

antar

......do you think it better that the Mother with the baby , the elderly person, the student be given the chance to learn how to cope with and stay focused and calm in a shooter scenario verses not discussing it at all and being taken by shock and surprise if they find themselves in this situation?

Since I never even implied that this was something which shouldn't be discussed, I'm unsure of the reasoning behind asking such a question. Of course it's better to at least be somewhat prepared, as opposed to freaking out and running around in circles like a headless chicken.




I just think that anyone/everyone who reads this, needs to fully understand that these are not definitive guidelines. They are suggestions, and nothing more.

Here's What To Do *Consider If You're In Public And Bullets Start To Fly

There are many determining factors which should be taken into consideration before reaching any type of conclusion regarding which is the absolute best move to make next.

reply to post by Biigs

Biigs
To anyone with a gun permit and a gun on them at the time, follow the same rules as above only if you can, shoot the bad guy.

That why people carry personal guns right?

I thought people carried them because it makes them look cool.
(Some people anyways. not all.)

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


I don't know about that. I have been robbed, shot at and returned fire. I have been pulled out of my car by a police officer and led to cover because of a man on a roof with a gun. I have been pulled into a building by a police officer, because of a man seen with a gun.(false alarm janitor hunting pidgeons with a BB gun) While working as a store clerk I have had a knife pulled on me, I pulled a gun, got fired and the store owner refused to prosecute. A man tried to assault our receptionist, outside my office, until I came out with a gun drawn.

I'd say that you are right about the chances of being involved in something like Columbine, Sandy Hook or something like it, but, I'd prefer to be prepared.

As you say about the chances of being struck by lightning, but, a park ranger in West Virginia has been struck by lightining something like 6 times.

BrokenCircles
reply to post by Biigs

 

Biigs
To anyone with a gun permit and a gun on them at the time, follow the same rules as above only if you can, shoot the bad guy.

That why people carry personal guns right?

I thought people carried them because it makes them look cool.
(Some people anyways. not all.)

In states that have concealed carry, you are around people who are carrying guns all day long. A very small minority of people carrying guns carry them openly. I guess the vast majority are not concerned with looking cool.

I'm so glad you shared this. There was a bomb threat at a local middle school a couple of weeks ago so I asked my child - "do you guys do drills?" He said just fire drills. I asked him what he would do if he heard bullets. He paused and looked stumped but then said "probably hide". So I told him to get on the floor and even play dead - just be still. He then said, "and cover my head". I thought about that and then realized he was thinking of some training he received if a bear were to attack - at a park we visited they taught kids this. I'm not sure if that would help much if someone was shooting people so haven't really addressed that in full. I would think it would draw more attention. He and I talked about how unlikely this is but it's better to have a plan and not need it than....(we know the rest of that saying).

We went over "what not to do" and tried to keep it light hearted in order to make an unlikely but frightening scenario a bit easier to take in - ...do not go investigate - " hey....what's that?....fireworks, etc". He got into the conversation more with what kids actually might do. Usually doesn't want to talk about things like this so helped to get him involved so if it were to happen he would remember.

If in the bathroom lock door, put feet up, and sit tight. Or crawl out a window and run away. If in hallways run and hide if time, etc. he asked if that had ever happened and I told him about Sandy Hook. I only told him how some died and some were more lucky and had time to hide. He became quiet after that and we changed the subject. I really think they should do more than fire drills in schools - even an earthquake drill teaches kids to get down so any drill other than "line up to go outside" seems reasonable. But since they don't I'll revisit this list and make sure I have covered all points.

antar
reply to post by Cuervo

 

Excellent point, so if you have a legal permit and something goes down, and you are trying to help save lives, how do you stay alive once the LEOS arrive?

When we had a shooting here in Utah at one of our malls, the guy with his CW, who took down the gunman, actually called his wife and told her to call the police and give them a description of what he was wearing so they would know he had a weapon and was not the shooter. After taking down the gunman, he had the gun away from him when police arrived.

It's all context. It all depends on the situation. There's no one right thing to do.

However, there is a universal constant - dumpsters. A dumpster is essentially bullet-proof. When I was infantry we had a guy get a couple of live rounds and lose his s# Full Metal Jacket style and start shooting when we were in formation. Tagged a sergeant. In about 4.2 milliseconds, the entire platoon was down the alley, in the dumpster, or behind the dumpster, except my platoon Sgt Griffin who took the guy's rifle away and butt stroked him in a clean, efficient and military fashion.

If you're not Griffin, run away. Or jump into a dumpster. That's ALWAYS good advice.

But, man, the rest is so contextual. Is it an inside or outside shooting? How open is the area? Is there cover? How long has it been going on? How many of them does there seem to be? Who are you with? Who do you have to protect? What are they armed with? What's the shooting picture? Can you get a good position? I don't think there's a way to cookbook the thing.

reply to post by antar


And/or after finding the right situation for ambush, pull your preferred ccw and wait or go looking for targets whatever.

reply to post by antar


Common sense but you are missing something of great importance. Kill the MOFO....

The situation is a lot different in a used car lot when three or four of your buddies are armed and you've served together. In that case, two lay down suppressive fire while two advance to new cover nearer the target, until one or more of you have a shooting position and you take him out.

It's way different in an open mall with nothing to hide behind, lots of kids and people standing there or running in circles, no way to get a clear shot and you've got a wife and two shrieking panicky kids who have stopped doing what you say and are milling about in panic and randomly running toward the shooter while you frantically try to grab them and get them under control.

Different still in a rock concert. Or a restaurant. Or a subway car. Or a Publix.

No offense to the OP, but while obviously there is a problem with firearm related casualties in the US, I think the risk of being shot is blown way out of proportion by MSM, but even more so by threads on ATS just like this.

Take a look at the official statistics here:

www.cdc.gov...

"Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 33,687
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.9
All firearm deaths
Number of deaths: 31,672
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.3"

So, this basically means that if firearm deaths were normalized across the entire population, you should be just as worried about getting on the freeway as being shot in some type of incident.

However, this statistic needs to be more closely dissected.

I can pull up stats on this if anyone is interested, but a significant number of these firearm deaths are:

1) From suicides.

2) From cases of domestic violence in the home (shot by someone you know well in a troubled home).

3) Accidents from people or children messing around with guns and --- ooops!

The total number of firearm deaths from random public shooting scenarios is much, much, much lower.

I am not trying to trivialize this issue or say this isn't a problem. I'm just saying that there are bigger and more important things to worry about than this.

If I gave statistics on the number of people who die due to lack of proper healthcare, who otherwise could have been saved, it would far exceed the numbers above.

So, if you are worried about what to do in some type of unimaginably rare public shooting scenario, you should be much more worried if you don't have proper health insurance and aren't getting regular and proper healthcare.

It would do greater good for the public safety if we focused more on what could be done to improve public transportation and reduce drunk driving, then to do "drills" on how to better survive a public shooting incident.

And it would do even more greater good if we improved healthcare in a significant way.