Do our ufolology conspiracies leave room for something novel?

My questions are at the end of this post. I'd appreciate other peoples' (serious) thoughts.

I probably should have done this years ago, but usually I visit this forum briefly and then forget for a few years. Kind of a cognitive dissonance, in part because I consider paranoia bad for my psychology, and in part because I don't much like focusing on certain topics as they seem to invoke some... resistance in me.

Recently I started reworking a case study I wrote nearly 20 years ago, as I'm going to post it on amazon next year (it's been on the web since '96), and as a side effect of being buried in the topic of aliens-entities-and-weirdness again, I allowed myself to diverge from the safety of a vitamin C thread here at ATS to get involved in a long thread about 'people who claim alien contact.' The thread brought me here far more often and for awhile. Now and then when I had some extra time I'd look around at some of the other threads.

I found an old thread today about the 'Aviary.' Started around page 18 because some link I followed started there. Got rather lost and missed pages... too many topics and too long. By the time I'd gotten through many pages of it though, I realized: I'm so lost! Good god, I thought the ufology topic was horribly confusing and weird circa 1994 when I took a peek into the CompuServe world, but I think either it's way worse now or I just had no idea the scope of it before.

I have to admit it's kind of irritating. I mean like the subject isn't bewildering enough, right? We have to add all these other topics into it too, from microwaves talking to the center of your brain microtubules to psyops experiments (or were those the same) to... whatever. Actually all these threads get so contentious with so many lawyer like details and hemming and hawing around everything that sometimes I realize I know less after reading them than more.

I don't think I would ever have heard of the Aviary term except a million years ago (ok, I exaggerate), some guy who called himself "Brother Blue" had a website where he talked about that kind of stuff, with a page on various people, although that is not all that he posted on apparently. Somehow he ended up making a page on me, due to the case study I'd posted in '96. I eventually met him by email and phone, and I really rather liked him personally, but he ended up meeting some of the people he talked about (in the 'Aviary') which true to intell (I've discovered) tend to be charismatic and intelligent, and convinced him he was paranoid for no reason whatever and I think pretty much ruined his interest in the topic at large. I think. This was a long time ago and I may not remember clearly. I can't even remember his name now.

Anyway, I read some of the other stuff on his site as a result, and realized that some of the people I'd encountered as a result of my interest in 'remote viewing' were oddly popular in 'crossover' social fields you might say, like ufology and mind control. But I figure most people just don't realize that even secret intell agents can be wanna-be's, and that's probably overdramatized... I find it difficult to believe half the technologies claimed actually exist, or that half that uber-geeks are anywhere near the evil overlords everyone (including them) probably wish they were. Not saying none of them do or none of them are, of course, I don't know, just saying that some of it seems overwrought.

Anyway, I was getting more depressed by the minute reading when I stopped and asked myself why. I mean, some of my experiences have been consistent for probably 20-30 years. It's not like I have any reason to doubt that certain elements I suppose you might call "of jungian individuation" aren't valid for me. (Because really, it would be freaking depressing to imagine I've been deluding myself about a large percentage of my personal, meaningful inner experience my entire life.) And I have as much doubt as anybody about the source of a lot of my odd experiences during the 93-95 era, well probably even more doubt and more cause of cynicism than most people, come to think of it. But I realized the depressing thing was that it seems like all the contention makes such a pile of chaos in the middle that it seems like there's no room left. What I mean is:

Isn't it possible that there is more to an emergent property of our species consciousness than we realize? Because many of the 'anomalous experience' elements ring with ancient stuff.

Isn't it possible that aside from all the lies and tricks (of which I'm sure there is no end), there is something more to reality than we realize?

Isn't it possible that we are losing the "human" element of the actual people experiencing "anomalous things" in our obsessive quest to determine which overly-human psyche-hacker is responsible for allegedly fake experiences?

The same could be asked about the long list of assumptions about "aliens" and what we assume we know of them.

Is there no room left at all for wonder about the nature of human experience and personal reality, for there being something that we don't already "assume we know everything about" and are just looking for the factoid proof point details on?

Because for something that to me seems like one of the biggest mysteries in my life, it sure seems like so many people are certain they've got everything figured out. I find that part even more mysterious than some of the truly mysterious things.

Is there still room in the 'war of conspiracies' for mystery and the truly unknown?

reply to post by RedCairo


Nothing ever comes from conspiracy theories. Nothing.

Just leave this site never come back.

Start your own consciousness organize plan and execute. Be the change you want in the world.

What type of attention has ATS got in the real world.

We prove and debunk conspiracies and nothing comes from it.

The only thing ATS has done publicly is reveal the address and phone number of a supposed crisis actor.
The world turns their nose up at us. What is the point other than to ttalk to like minded people about it, want change and do nothing.

Yada yada yada. I am a slave to technology. That is why I am here point blank period. I want to leave this site and make a difference but I cant. I am not a leader. Neither are you or you would be organizing plannin and executing...

Until the next pointless thread comes along...I bid you good bye

No...

The internet has made everyone an expert.

Five minutes on YouTube can explain every mystery known to man.

Please immediately form some pre-conceived notions.

It really helps when you start a thread.

You met Blue Resonant Human (Brother Blue) and you can't remember his name? Darn! That cat was brilliant. I've been trying to track him down:

Who Was/Is Blue Resonant Human?

As far as I can tell he never backed down nor was otherwise convinced that his writings were off track. Maybe you could elaborate on that?

The Aviary? That subject certainly requires some work and a dedicated attention span, but it's not that difficult. That's not to say it's never complex. That gist of that thread is more about the damage done to ufology than it is about solving the so far unsolvable riddle and acts as a warning.

My point was that some members of the so-called Aviary are all about some ufological disinformation as well as the abuse of those of us who seek the truth. Maybe pg 1 would have been a better starting place:

The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs

Would you mind sharing your own experiences--or the paper that you reference--with us here?

eso322
reply to post by RedCairo

 

Nothing ever comes from conspiracy theories. Nothing.

I suspect, the whole population of Iraq might beg to differ with you on that assumption.

To the OP. Yes, I think I have decent if not comprehensive handle, on much of the human side of the UFO equation.

As for the UFOs themselves and by UFOs, i mean those that are not misidentified astronomical objects, human made flying vehicles etc well, some are Earthlites, some are probably sophisticated internal hallucinations, some might well be projected hallucinations produced by a non human intelligence. some might well be actual craft not produced by a human intelligence, some might be as yet, unknown living organisms,some could a mixture of more than one of those previously listed and that's where, it would seem, we are currently at.

FireMoon
As for the UFOs themselves and by UFOs, i mean those that are not misidentified astronomical objects, human made flying vehicles etc well, some are Earthlites, some are probably sophisticated internal hallucinations, some might well be projected hallucinations produced by a non human intelligence. some might well be actual craft not produced by a human intelligence, some might be as yet, unknown living organisms,some could a mixture of more than one of those previously listed and that's where, it would seem, we are currently at.

THAT would be the absolutely most brilliant, concise, and comprehensive ufological state-of-the-union thread on ATS. Bravo, FireMoon.

Seriously, that paragraph should be a thread.

reply to post by RedCairo


Now, look here. I have had just about enough of all this. Let me boil the UFO issue down to its important components. The only thing about the entire topic which needs answering, more examination, more thought, effort, time, and energy sunk into it, is scientifically PROVING claims that are made, beyond the ability of reasonable people to doubt them.

This has never been adequately focused on in my estimation, in the entire history of the subject.

We need LESS room for imagination, and more room for facts, less for flights of fancy, and more for hard science, less space for the meditators and hippies, and more for the lab coats and the test tubes. There is already MORE than enough attention paid to story tellers, the deluded, and those who wish to make money on the lecture circuit .

Now we need to take all the flim flam, all the fantastical stories and awesome tales, and fire lasers at them, pass current through them, apply acids to them, run them through a gas chromatograph mass spectrometer, and do REAL work to find out what's going on up there, without government involvement, AND without the "assistance" offered by the kind of wheatgrass munching, d-bags who think that you can call a UFO down by thinking positive thoughts, or any of that holistic mumbo jumbo.

Imagination is GREAT! It allows fiction to be created, and is necessary on the part of readers in order for it to be enjoyed. But it does not answer questions in as straight forward a manner as does proper investigation and examination, and right now, fiction outweighs fact in terms of how well they are supported by UFOlogy as a field, and those who work within it. Imagination is alive and well, and needs no help to flourish at this point. It is reality that takes a kicking these days.

reply to post by RedCairo


Gene Roddenberry had it figured out!...

very good read, a thinker about the behavior of "knowing"!

Imagination is alive and well, and needs no help to flourish at this point. It is reality that takes a kicking these days.

I think they could both use some props.

The only thing about the entire topic which needs answering, more examination, more thought, effort, time, and energy sunk into it, is scientifically PROVING claims

Hmmn. Well, since

a) My personal interest is my personal experiences and the possibly not-quite-so-space-alien-or-microwave-tech-or-babbling-lunacy nature of them, and

b) Unless historical, empirical and 'suggestive' evidence is taken seriously, the chances for proving something like 'allegedly-alien contact' are so close to "astronomically improbable" without THEM volunteering it, that it's hard to be optimistic about this at all...

That doesn't leave a lot of room for anything though.

And in its way, that is not much different than looking for the government black ops conspiracy to explain the mind control delusion, or the planet those buggers keep coming from to levitate cows and people, or whatever -- by which I mean, it is "one assumed answer that people think they already know and are merely looking to confirm."

The very expectation that it's as physically practical for science as say, a bowling alley, already concludes (and excludes) a huge amount about the phenomenon, before we have any data suggesting anything like that.

Pre-choosing the answer by filtering only to data which matches the most hoped-for (easiest) model doesn't really change the underlying nature of anything, it just makes it easier to ignore uncomfortable questions and even more uncomfortably non-lego-shaped data pieces.

Seems to me...

reply to post by RedCairo


I think genuine forensic analysis of some scenes which have allegedly been involved with UFO landings and so on, could actually yeild some very interesting results, if that is, a citizen lead group were to actually go out there and look at them properly, i.e. in a controled and professional manner.

I am talking about taking soil samples, samples from effected tree and plant matter (crushed, or ripped) geiger readings, elecromagnetic readings, multi spectral analysis, using actual science to determine what may or may not have happened in a given location. This is never done to an acceptable degree, because the money that should be spent on equiping and employing professionals to do this work, gets spent on some hacks latest crappy book, or subscription to an even crappier news letter or magazine on the topic.

It is madness to say that nothing can be learned by the scientific process in these matters, utter madness. Things which happen in the physical universe can always be learned about by way of scientific investigation, indeed, that is the ONLY way to learn. It is how you learned to walk without falling, eat without choking, fart without crapping yourself and a whole host of other trial and error experiments which lead to your own current understanding of yourself, and the way you relate to your physical universe. Just because these things happen subconciously does not make that any less true, and it applies just as much to the currently unexplained phenomena of UFO, as anything else in the cosmos.

I don't think we are at the apex of our scientific processes or models. They will grow and change as we humanity, learns and grows and changes. Eventually, we will have breakthroughs that will do much to explain the paranormal. I hope, anyways. If we make it.

That being said, I find the world in it's entirety novel. Of course, I choose to do this. I become very depressed and anxious when I take it all too seriously. We each, independently a tiny blip on the make of thousands of years of ingenuity. I don't think we collectively give ourselves enough credit, and wilfully choose to disparage one another in a prideful attempt to stroke our own genius. You can't find better comedy than that - on any big screen anywhere!

Until proof is set forth apart from my personal experiences - I HAVE to treat the subject novel. For if I do not, I am called names, threatened with forced detainment by those who claim to know my own mind better, and TOLD it's novel. Until we change how we treat one another, I will always approach the paranormal novelly. For my own preservation. The situation in it's current state - demands it. So yeah, hurry up science. Break the veil and show the world proof of it's existence. Other realities working unseen right alongside us. It would be nice to discuss what was once paranormal - now proven to be part of reality. When that happens, then and only , will I treat it un-novelly.

CdT

Lack of hard/physical evidence (I don't consider blurry pictures and video as 'hard evidence') leads me to conclude that UFOs/Saucers are not physical phenomena.
That's not to say they aren't 'real'. I agree with John Keel's theory (Mothman Prophecies) that *someone* ('something') is out there messing with us. I've noticed a pattern of emotional traum to some witnesses. For an old school explanation, maybe saucers/aliens are demonic.
A lot of people have wasted a lot of time chasing this stuff.

I don't think Aliens would be primarily involved in conspiracies per say, other then being government/political scandals, corporate corruption, and military events. Unless actual alien technology has been captured then reversed engineered for a better understanding in an attempt to replicate it, as well as for mass production.

As for world doomdays effort like Y2K and 2012, seems to have declined drastically.

Mainly, it just antics, and symbolism gets dissected to usually invoke fear or a point. Usually it has something to with Goats in subtle imagery.

Not only that, it just the spirit of the times or the lack of a better word, the "Zeitgeist".

RedCairo

Is there still room in the 'war of conspiracies' for mystery and the truly unknown?

Not really, because we want to establish facts and not expand the fiction?

Well, perhaps that actually explains it in a way.

That culturally we are not really open to new ideas on it at this point, not because we are not open to new ideas in general, but because there is already so much chaos and confusion, that any new idea feels like the last straw.

So we're more willing to go with something known even if it's not really accurate or even if it doesn't even work for figuring it out, than something unknown. That is actually not an uncommon thing in sociology/psychology I suppose, so it makes sense to see it here.

We're looking for the keys a block from where we dropped them because the light is better here.

Thanks for your input everyone, I appreciate all the responses.

reply to post by RedCairo


I am not sure what your specific experiences are, nor what your specific viewpoints are. That aside, it would seem that you have a similar understanding to me.

My view: i work with a lot of various sommaliers and sundry "wine experts". The first thing to know when dealing with these folks: ignore them. They take a mix of conventional wisdom (to advise on pairings) mixed with a whole handful of made up nonsense.

Same with any "experts". So ignore them. Read the facts and make your own determinations.

CirqueDeTruth
I don't think we are at the apex of our scientific processes or models. They will grow and change as we humanity, learns and grows and changes. Eventually, we will have breakthroughs that will do much to explain the paranormal. I hope, anyways. If we make it.

I have often considered that "they" may stay invisible until such point that we can find them. I am not certain that the government knows much more than we do. So it would be interesting....

RedCairo
Well, perhaps that actually explains it in a way.

That culturally we are not really open to new ideas on it at this point, not because we are not open to new ideas in general, but because there is already so much chaos and confusion, that any new idea feels like the last straw.

So we're more willing to go with something known even if it's not really accurate or even if it doesn't even work for figuring it out, than something unknown. That is actually not an uncommon thing in sociology/psychology I suppose, so it makes sense to see it here.

We're looking for the keys a block from where we dropped them because the light is better here.

Thanks for your input everyone, I appreciate all the responses.

I would disagree with that, culturally new ideas are great, we live in the internet age, and there has never been a better time for new ideas.

So; new is fine, but it needs substance to it in order to have value. If there is nothing to chew over there is nothing to discuss, nothing to evaluate and therefore the reasonable response is to discard it, hence the need for verifiable evidence. That's the hook for any theory or mystery.

Most stuff in ufology seems to have nothing, and where it does, they trend towards being outright hoaxes (take your pick) or erroneous (I'm thinking solway firth spaceman www.abovetopsecret.com... ). I think it's reasonable that people are a little jaded now compared to say 1994

However, you come across as both intelligent and well written (Combined with that you are talking about putting a book on Amazon, I suspect you have some kind of professional background involving writing?), so surely you realise all of the above already?

I admit to being curious as to where you are angling with this considering that your own experiences appear to not be measurable or verifiable in any way and as such would be a difficult story to sell to a ufology community in the current day? Or were your original questions generally posed with no context in mind?

However, you come across as both intelligent and well written (Combined with that you are talking about putting a book on Amazon, I suspect you have some kind of professional background involving writing?),

Naw. I have a real job, heh. It's just a long boring case study I wrote for a friend nearly 20 years ago (been on the internet free all this time) and that my best friend after many years of effort has convinced me to make more formal. I've had a lot of feedback on it over time that encouraged me to think it was worth the effort. I don't expect to actually make any money on it, unless time vs. income at about .003 cents an hour counts...

I do write fiction on occasion over the last couple decades but have never tried to publish anything. (One I'm working on currently, finished but in draft form, is a sort of post-post apocalyptic novel. Nothing woo in it. Others have some paranormal elements. One not complete is loosely based on my case study experiences.) I'd like to get around to doing so (publishing). I've been a single mom and my job often requires far more than fulltime work, so to be honest I just haven't really had the time or energy to focus on anything outside job and kid and some webstuff and (equally boring to others) blogging. Kid is 17 now and, when she is not giving me the occasional attack of rage or panic, is not requiring nearly the time investment she used to until just recently, so I'm finally getting the ability to do more of something for me.

so surely you realise all of the above already?

I agree that outside spirituality (which is no explanation for anything, but cabala traditions have a surreal [to the point of rather mind boggling] correlation to my experiences despite I have no interest in that 'religion'), and theoretical physics [which alas are only theory and we have no science yet on how this interacts with human perception], combined with what I'll call 'interference' factors [the latter being a somewhat too common unhealthy fascination with experimental psychology and technology on the part of our people and possibly others], there does not seem to be a viable model to contain such experiences.

I tend to consider the above pretty viable though, but unfortunately difficult to work through since it mostly results in either wide-eyed woo (for the spirit), secret occult (for the QBLH), and mind-control paranoia (for the interference).

I admit to being curious as to where you are angling with this considering that your own experiences appear to not be measurable or verifiable in any way and as such would be a difficult story to sell to a ufology community in the current day?

Not my goal at all (or I wouldn't have written something to be informative instead of entertaining, and wouldn't have had it free online all this time). Aside from which I think it ended up sounding more like a psychological case study than anything else, despite clear physiological symptoms. I don't really have anything vested in there being one answer instead of another on such matters. I don't know the answer(ssss) myself.

Actually, I don't much like what little I've seen of the 'ufology community' so probably the last thing I'd want to do is anything 'geared to' that genre... my experiences merely are what they are and as many of them have nothing to do with that field (if not more) than do.

I read a couple Vallee books I liked, and one by Richard Thompson (on Vedic history vs. modern lore) I loved. I was blown away when I found the Walton account (in the 90s, though it was new to me) as it had similarities with some of my experiences. I didn't much like the Jacobs book I read back in '95 or so, although some elements were disturbingly similar to a few of my own, but that mostly just upset me because I didn't like the model he has it in. I talked with some people about the topic for about 1.5-2 years back in the mid 90s, some of whom I respected a great deal but they seldom if ever posted public things, and many of whom I considered psychologically unstable, who seemed to feel obliged to post as publicly as possible lol. I'm a little cynical about info obtained via hypnosis, though I admit some of the elements on occasion match what I believe to be genuine experiences of my own and these were not usually related to so-called aliens at all.

And I mostly find the idea of aliens-from-space hilariously entertaining but unlikely to be the situation, although nothing is impossible and perhaps 'everything' is going on, hence the immense confusion on the topic.

Or were your original questions generally posed with no context in mind?

Mostly just a knee-jerk reaction to reading a couple threads on ATS where everyone seemed to feel they absolutely KNEW(tm) the reason, cause, answer, etc. behind such experiences, and since the going theories don't seem to be getting anybody anywhere, I just wondered if there was any hope at all for something better.

It seems like if the models that are dominating the 'ufology field' aren't leading anywhere that maybe some different models are needed (although perhaps the real problem is that the models most likely to be key, such as physics, we simply do not have the science to support at this time).

But it seems unlikely we're going to get any new models or ideas on the topic when either everyone-already-knows-the-answer or, of course, is arguing there is no answer because there's no experience (outside insanity or fraud) to begin with.

I was just curious to others' thoughts on it in general. I didn't really have a context besides the one given.

Peace.