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gun crime ( uk )

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posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by shorty
I thought you could work that out yourself.


-


No, why not just admit that the only thing you know about how these things are done here, never mind over there, is next to nothing.

You obviously have never been near an election poll count in your life here and you have no idea about the security measures that are in place.

You would have to be living the most laughable fantasy to imagine the Police in the UK (who are responsible for much - though not all - of the security arrangements) would go along (nationwide) with any attempt to fraud the vote.

So come on, you made the claim, how do you imagine this happening here, hmmm?




posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 03:28 PM
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I cant say that i have sat down and watched a count have you? Now please explain to me what happening exactly then.

What i was simply saying is the same type of intimidation and vote buying could be done here.



posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 05:09 PM
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'Crime Gangs Have One of World's Deadliest Guns'
This gun came from europe how many more are?

One possible reason for the small increase in gun related crime might have something to do with the entry of new members into the EU. As more countries join, especially those where guns are much easier to come by, people from those countries come here to the UK. Speaking from experience here, there are many more Russian sounding people round where i live just recently, i say Russian, but it's Polish, Hungarian, Lithuanian [it all has that Ivan sound to it even if it isnt the same]. Maybe when they enter the country with all their belongings thier sneaking in the odd gun here and there to sell on the black market.

Percentages and government figures i really have a hard time with because they rise and fall and then occasionally turn out to be incorrect or the true figures are not reported, and the public are left with conflicting commenets and opinions from those we are meant to trust.

Saying that i still do not except that the UK has a gun problem. Not because i reside in a wealthy or middle class environment, but because i frequent some of the meanest streets the UK has to offer and guns arent the problem. Youre more likely to get jooked or battered to death.



posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by shorty
I cant say that i have sat down and watched a count have you?


- Yes.
Several times actually.


Now please explain to me what happening exactly then.


- No I will not.

Instead trolling or expecting to be spoon-fed go and look it up yourself and educate yourself about the ins and outs of how elections are done in the UK.

.....especially before you come out with such ludicrous and foolish ill-informed pronouncements about the ease with which you imagine such a massive electoral fraud could be performed in the UK.

You come here giving the impression you have an interest in British politics so go and learn something about it all.
If you do actually shift your own rear to do it you might actually learn something about it.....

......and in future you might then have at least half a clue as to what you are making these daft lofty comments about!


What i was simply saying is the same type of intimidation and vote buying could be done here.


- On a country-wide scale, here in the UK, to steal an election, with no-one noticing it?

Yeah right.


(they could not, afterall, even get away with it in the Ukraine, could they, hmm?)



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 09:24 AM
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- Yes.


Then i advice you to get a social life.




- No I will not.


Fine, dont. I have looked it up and got no were fast. YOU TRY IT!!!!!




Instead trolling or expecting to be spoon-fed


Trolling? How the hell am i trolling????? I also think there is a differance between asking to be spoon fed and asking you to explain your argument dont you. How often do you ask me for links? you have in the past. So whats the differance.




.....especially before you come out with such ludicrous and foolish ill-informed pronouncements about the ease with which you imagine such a massive electoral fraud could be performed in the UK.


Maybe im wring.

But if it can be done there why not here especially when the Labout gov are going to get a helluva lot out of it?



- On a country-wide scale, here in the UK, to steal an election, with no-one noticing it?


So when did i say no-one would notice it?


******



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by shorty
Then i advice you to get a social life.


- Funny.
My social life is just fine shorty, don't you worry about it.

But your quip is kind of illuminating.
You see, whether it's an ordinary/ interesting/funny/odd/sad etc 'line of business' to you or not, someone has to do it if we are to remain a relatively free society.
The nuts and bolts of the way it actaully operates is very unglamourous but nevertheless have to be 'done'.

Unfortunately it is life, real life and your ability to have a decent social life kind of depends on the people you condescend to in that manner; maybe one day you might even grow up enough to show some appreciation for those that carry out these tasks (many completely voluntary and unpaid) on your behalf.

The arrogance of youth, huh?


Fine, dont. I have looked it up and got no were fast. YOU TRY IT!!!!!


- Try looking up a variety of relevant sources then eh?
I'd the proime one to start with would be your your local electoral office; cor, you must have reallylooked high and low if you missed them
!

......course you wouldn't be trolling on this would you shorty, hmm?


It's a public office....you can phone them or visit them in person.

Pretty easy stuff. Right?

......if you really do have the slightest genuine interest in how it actually works.


Trolling? How the hell am i trolling?????


- Coooo yeah, how does trolling work, eh?
By asking other people to race round proving everything, quibbling every possible point - even those widely known - and having them do all the easy leg work and responding with a mere "ok" at the end of it; maybe?



I also think there is a differance between asking to be spoon fed and asking you to explain your argument dont you. How often do you ask me for links? you have in the past. So whats the differance.


- Unless you make a wild and outrageous claim (like Blair's trechery for instance) I very rarely ask you for a link, correct?


Maybe im wring.


- The word is 'wrong' and yes you are.


But if it can be done there why not here especially when the Labout gov are going to get a helluva lot out of it?


- Er maybe because genuinely open, free and fair elections (particularly ones involving multiple parties and opposing competing candidates) are not part of the recent political tradition over there compared to here, hmm?

As for what you imagine "Labour are going to get out of it"?

What, is that any different to what anyone else would get out of it?

Do you have the slightest idea how many non-political people are involved in UK elections and the security of them?

Of course not, but, that doesn't stop you slinging uninformed idiotic opinion and accusation around, does it?

Maybe if we get the 'Diebold' machines in (without a proper audit proceedure) like they have in the USA you'll have something to worry about.


So when did i say no-one would notice it?


- So are you saying they'd attempt to steal the election knowing they'd be 100% certain to be caught out?

As if.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 11:12 AM
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Thats not trollling.....

Wait a minute am i replieing to this crap???



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 05:19 PM
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There is a growing culture of fear. Younger people may grow up thinking that guns are commonplace. There is a growing gang culture with these gangs often armed with baseball bats and knives.


I think this is a key issue facing the UK, the almost sociopathic culture of violence and antisocial behaviour and the lack of real political will to actually deal with it. This is far more frightening than any stats on gun crime but if the two manage to combine in any substantial sense that's terrifying.



- I would agree with that.
I just simply can't go along with comments that get this so totally out of proportion and claim the sky is falling down when we still have - as we always have had - a very very low level of gun crime in the UK.
To do otherwise seems absurd and a complete departure from reality to me.


Up to a point I agree but I seem to remember not so many years ago how politicians and social commentators chided people for their fear of violent crime and antisocial behaviour, how in real terms it was far lower than people imagined. Now, at least where I live, it seems to be everywhere. Granted, with regards to gun crime, the sky is not falling but I hope this trend is nipped in the bud.


[edit on 8-12-2004 by ubermunche]



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by ubermunche
I seem to remember not so many years ago how politicians and social commentators chided people for their fear of violent crime and antisocial behaviour, how in real terms it was far lower than people imagined.


- That is one of the interesting - if perverse - outcomes to all of this.

Crime doubled under the last tory gov and in their final years as they actually saw it fall no matter what they said about it no-one believed them, just as many refuse to believe it now.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey


Crime doubled under the last tory gov and in their final years as they actually saw it fall no matter what they said about it no-one believed them, just as many refuse to believe it now.


Yes by the kast tory gov, thats last tory gov. Not the possible future tory gov.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by shorty
Not the possible future tory gov.


- shorty matey firstly this was specifically referring to past events and secondly......when are you going to wake up?

There isn't going to be a future tory gov.

They're going to lose heavily in the coming poll, after that who knows?

That would mean the earliest that there could be would be in 2009 - 10. (and given the advantages the first past the post electoral system gives to a landslide-winning party even that looks unlikely, yes, even now!)

Ss, any bets on their imploding self-destruction and a scattering to the winds?

(and far more interesting, what are they going to do if the Lib-Dems decapitate the tory party.....several big names up for the chop!
....it'll be the most interesting story of the night, you mark my words.)



[edit on 9-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 10:25 AM
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No way is Labour going to win by a landslide, they will win but not by a land slide.

How was this specifcly refearing to past events.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 10:31 AM
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Originally posted by shorty
No way is Labour going to win by a landslide, they will win but not by a land slide.


- Well Ok, we shall all see soon enough.


How was this specifcly refearing to past events.


- I was replying to what ubermunche said this 8/12/04 11.19pm - "I seem to remember not so many years ago how politicians and social commentators chided people for their fear of violent crime and antisocial behaviour, how in real terms it was far lower than people imagined."



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by shorty
No way is Labour going to win by a landslide, they will win but not by a land slide.


- Well Ok, we shall all see soon enough.


How was this specifcly refearing to past events.


- I was replying to what ubermunche said this 8/12/04 11.19pm - "I seem to remember not so many years ago how politicians and social commentators chided people for their fear of violent crime and antisocial behaviour, how in real terms it was far lower than people imagined."



We shall see.

And the past ref bit fair enough i obviouusly didn't read the thread properly.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by shorty
We shall see.


- Indeed. Any bets on the timing?

I still reckon may with oct an outside bet......I think all that snap feb stuff is merely a little gamesmanship to wrong-foot and use up the oppositions resources a little.


And the past ref bit fair enough i obviouusly didn't read the thread properly.


- No worries, it's easy done.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 08:36 AM
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OK, on topic, I've done a little bit of digging around on Nationmaster, a sprawling website, full of statistical information gathered from many countries around the world.

I began researching under the assertion that the problem and magnitutde of gun crime in this country is being over-exagerated, for the sake of fearmongering.

Some stats then: -

For comparison, I've used the USA, as it is a culturally similar country, with a well documented gun crime problem.

First off, total number of murders: -

USA - 12,658
UK - 850

Those figures per capita: -

USA - 0.04 per 1000
UK - 0.01 per 1000


Number of Murders with firearms: -

USA - 8,259
UK - 62

So, that means that 7.3% of UK murders were commited with a firearm, whereas for our cousins in America, 67.4% of murder victims met their end from the barrel of a gun. That is an absolutely huge percentage difference, amplified by the sheer numbers of murders in the USA compared with UK.

I still believe that gun crime in this country is greatly over-exagerated. That isn't to say that I would advocate 'burying of heads in sand' over the issue, because if people are dying, then it definitely is an issue. Lets put it into perspective though; You are much safer from guns here in the UK than you are in the US and most European countries.

[edit on 14-12-2004 by Paul]



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by Paul
I still believe that gun crime in this country is greatly over-exagerated.


The reason it is over exagerated in the UK is that people live in less living area than in America. This means news spreads quicker and the chinese whispers effect comes into play.

I hope that made sense to somebody



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 10:01 PM
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Under my desk, I have a revolver and a pistol, both loaded. On my desk, I have two loaded 15 round magazines. I like it that way and I feel sorry for those who lack the right to be similarly armed in their homes.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Under my desk, I have a revolver and a pistol, both loaded. On my desk, I have two loaded 15 round magazines. I like it that way and I feel sorry for those who lack the right to be similarly armed in their homes.


I'm guessing you live in America then


I don't know why you feel sorry for us people who don't need to carry firearms with us. Maybe you could explain?



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard

Originally posted by Paul
I still believe that gun crime in this country is greatly over-exagerated.


The reason it is over exagerated in the UK is that people live in less living area than in America. This means news spreads quicker and the chinese whispers effect comes into play.

I hope that made sense to somebody


Your point made good sense UK Wizard, but where do you suppose most of American gun crime is commited, and would it therefore not have a similar effect as it does here?



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