after 1997 when bliar banned guns after
the UK saw the worst shooting ever ( man kills kids in school )
has gun crime gone worse or is it getting better.

since in urban area's Gun culture is in a big rise?

has blairs stance worked?
since that was one of the key issues in 1997

[edit on 14-11-2004 by bodrul]

Wise up.

Gun crime is a tiny in the UK.

It is so tiny it could double and it would still be (compared to most of the world) tiny.

Realise.

[edit on 14-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

You have the right to an opinion. You stand by the bent lap dog Blair many dont but people are going to vote him in again because in reality these small partys wont get in which has left us with Torry, New Labour and boarderline Lib dem. The Torrys previous record will stop them getting, few people want that Lib bloke in and so we are left with a guy who will probably fix the vote in order to get in.

Tony Blair has made many bad mistakes. Gun crime being one and it has got worse. Its been on the rise greatly, more often is it on the news, radio and T.V. Blairs mistakes and lap dog traits have god England into a helluva lot of bother, we support the U.S at every turn and he claims we live in a damocracy, he says we have freedom of speech but Blair has removed our tongs.

It doesn't seem like gun crime is that big of a problem in the UK.
In most gun crimes, the weapons weren't even fired and in the cases where they were fired, it was usually at property not people.

Maybe so but there is still an increase.

Inner city in London and major cities across the UK have major gun crime problems. I watched a debate on a politics show on BBC one a few months ago, they discussed how easy it is to get a gun in this country.

- As do we all shorty.



- If you are referring to the UKIP type small parties, well, there's a reason for that....people have heard their 1-dimensional, heavily slanted politics and just don't 'buy' it.



- ....and how, in the UK, could this "fix" be successfully accomplished shorty?
Have you ever been to an election count?
Do you have the remotest idea what it would require and how many people would have to be 'in' on it?
It's just not feasible.



- You see this is where things start to get funny here.

It is a matter of fact that the UK has a very low level of gun crime (not to mention crime generally) as compared to similar countries in the developed world.

That is not about opinion. That is the fact of the matter.

You can then go on to draw and form opinions about that level of gun crime and it's rise or fall etc......but the factual low level of the gun crime itself has nothing to do with 'opinion'.



- What bother is that then?
Where is your lack of free speech?
Where is the loss of democracy.....especially with the general election just around the corner?

Do you see no value in the atlantic alliance at all?
That also seems pretty unusual IMO considering you also seem to think Europe and the EU are some sort of scary threatening thing.

You have an unusual vision for the UK shorty. No alliances and no friends except those totally on 'our terms'......you sure you're not a Bush fan?

This is how i see it.

Its all scare mongering to make you think there is a problem so you will be more aware.

Crime is very low in this country and so it should be given its size and the number of police and their little helpers out on the street.

i read a while back, although i do not remember the source that Los Angeles high schools alone have more gun crime that our cities.

So while it's still low shouldn't we start to tackle it, not only the gun crime but the gun culture where a gun is seen by some as a must have accessory. Besides that violent crime is on the increase guns might kill you but so can being stabbed or beaten to death.

Home Office - Gun Crime



It says there is a drop in crime by 15% for homicides and 13% for robberies but it then says we have seen an unacceptable rise in gun crime

Maybe i've just read it wrong, but the homeoffice is saying two things that contradict each other.

Also i think the majority of gun crime is proberly un-recorded due to gang warfare, concealed weapons etc






[edit on 5-12-2004 by UK Wizard]

- No, I don't think that is contradictory at all.

On the one hand there is the correct and accurate assessment of how things stand right now (that the UK has a very very low level of gun crime) and on the other is the comment that the 'rise' that has been seen is unacceptable.

That seems perfectly consistant to me.

What's the problem?



- That may be true UK Wizard.....but if that is so one must also recognise that it was always probably so; in fact today's British crime 'gangs' are nothing like as high profile as those of the past.

But even so any gun-toting gangs of today have their counterparts of yesterday too (the Krays and the Richardsons etc etc) in an age when many many more young and middle-aged criminal men had far greater experience of firearms in the UK due to WW2 & the Korean war.

I'm not saying they are nothing to worry about but compared to 30 - 40yrs ago these boys are nothing like the problem.

.....and still our levels of gun crime were low then as they are low now.

Michael Howard and todays tory party; whinning and wailing that Labour have not cured all Britain's ills in 7.5yrs even though they failed to manage it in their 19yr 'go' at the job

[edit on 5-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

I'm going to disagree with you slightly on this. In the bad old days these criminal gangs and families operated in a far more discriminateing, insular way. Gangs and gun violence tended to be far more specific and directed, ie rival gangs fighting it out amongst each other, these days the gunculture seems to have bled out from the more covert, organised criminal element to the more undisciplined street gangs who operate in a far more indiscriminate manner endangering members of the public, guns are also increasingly being used in street robberies and house breaking, the kind of crimes that affect the general public. Ok it's a small increase at the moment but it''s a worrying trend. I still believe though that's it's violent crime that has the most impact on our society. Innocent people being killed for kicks. That needs to be stamped out.

So none of you really answered the question. Has gun crime increased or decreased since the UK's gun ban?

sminkeypinkey, I understand what you are saying, that it small to begin with, but how about the percentages since 1997. You can’t compare your gun crime numbers to many other countries, but you can compare the percentages and show if the gun ban helped or hurt. Even if it has only gone up 2% a year, it is still a rise, and it has probably been long enough to tell if it is a fluke or a result of tighter gun laws.


What we have seen here in the states is that, in general, when law abiding citizens (meaning those who are actually affected by the gun laws) are allowed better access to concealable handguns the violent crime rate drops, often considerably.

Although your gun crime has been low enough so as not to raise many eyebrows over even a moderate change in numbers, we are on a much larger scale here in the states, and a couple percent rise for us equals many lives. We are watching you, UK, so we can show the anti-gunners here what happens when you ban all guns. It looks to me (an outsider, of course) that what you are seeing is either a small increase (which is big deal in a country with relatively low gun crime rates as you are quick to point out, sminkeypinkey) or that you have seen almost no change, in which case you have violated the rights of your citizens to own guns for leisure or self defense and no good has come of it other then helping those with an irrational phobia of guns sleep better at night.

Also remember that when a woman gets raped and the rapist has no gun, it does not get reported as a gun crime of course, and has no effect on gun crime numbers; however that woman was still disarmed by her government, giving the rapist a guarantee by his government that his victim would be unarmed. Sam Colt called his invention "The equalizer," a phrase that any woman who has ever thwarted a potential attacker with a gun understands very well.

If guns halped prevent rape, incidents of rape would be lower in the countries with the most guns or the states with the most guns but that's not the case.

The US rate is double that of the UK.

The number of rapes in Texas is 37.7 per 100,000 Inhabitants while the national average is 32.0
www.disastercenter.com...

If guns kept women safer, rape should be lower in that state.
(I'm assuming Texas has more guns than the average state)

- I would agree with that.
I just simply can't go along with comments that get this so totally out of proportion and claim the sky is falling down when we still have - as we always have had - a very very low level of gun crime in the UK.
To do otherwise seems absurd and a complete departure from reality to me.



- The level has increased very slightly since the ban, depending on which year(s) you chose to compare.



- Hmmm, I can see what you are saying but none of this happens in isolation.
The easier availability of firearms has undoubtedly continued to make the possession of firearms more common regardless of the ban.

The ban itself merely stopped that particular means of supply, whcih was IMHO well worth doing in itself but it did not suddenly 'solve' the problem in it's totality.



- That may be so in some certain cases, however when you include all the other aspects of general gun ownership one must also consider (like the rate of serious and fatal accidents, the use of guns to enable extreme forms of domestic violence etc etc) I do not think you in the USA are any better off at all.

If it were up to me I'd ban them all in a heartbeat. Period.

......and as for assault weapons!?
I just think some people have taken total leave of their senses.



- I can see no comparison between the USA and UK.
Your numbers are terrifying compared to ours.
.....and if our numbers are totally unacceptable what the hell does that make yours?



- I have no doubt that the pro-gun lobby in the USA will play with the statistics to their hearts content.....and I am absolutely certain much of that will centre around a deeply dishonest 'playing with percentages' and keeping as far away from the bald numbers themselves (because they are so low) as possible.

I have also not the slightest doubt that a simplistic assessment claiming to show a rise - or little or no difference - as justification for keeping things as they are in the USA.

Fine, it's your funeral(s), maimed and threatened families, friends, neighbours and colleagues etc etc.

(and IMHO there is little point talking about 'these things shouldn't happen with 'correct and responsible ownership'.....the fact is human beings do do these things and the results are all to plain to see.)

As I said. The ban happened against a back-drop of guns getting ever easier to obtain. We successfully have stopped one supply route here in the UK.
If only that were the only one, sadly it isn't but pretending that the ban should have had effects it could not possibly have on its own seems to me to be dishonest. It greatly helped the situation, it did not of itself solve it, nor could it.



- I think it's been pretty well pointed out that the US level off sex-crime is also significantly higher than here in the UK.
General gun ownership has not had the effect you imagine with this.



- In specific cases maybe, I can see examples where that is so.
I myself would not base an overall judgement on this on those specifics though, I would prefer to look much more broadly at this than that.

It seems to me that such widescale and easy gun ownership also 'ups the ante' with your criminals and I think you'll also find the accompanying violence because of this is also well in excess of what we experience here too.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

First of all, the media (tv, newspapers etc.) has blown things way out of proportion. I'm sure gun crime isn't as nearly as common as it is reported on the news.

I think the government of the UK, not just the current one in particular but any that come to power, should take a good hard look at the root causes of gun crime.

There is a growing culture of fear. Younger people may grow up thinking that guns are commonplace. There is a growing gang culture with these gangs often armed with baseball bats and knives.

There is also the influence from Hollywood, making guns look 'cool' but I suppose that has always been there but now it is easier than ever to access these things.

Video games sometimes glorify violence. Young people are playing on games that the game designers say are targeted towards adult audiences.

No-one cares about other people and society anymore.

PS: I know I have over simplified and generalised issues.


[edit on 5/12/04 by Hyperen]

How? Well let me think... One word keeps popping up its just whispering to me. Why? It says over and over Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine Ukraineeeeeeeee

- Ok shorty; let's hear your ideas of the similarities to the established British election proceedures and the Ukraines that you think illustrate just how a wide-spread UK electoral fraud could actually happen here, then.

I thought you could work that out yourself.