rape prevention , by " teaching men not to rape " a concept ?

I think some of the responses in this thread clearly illustrate why it's a very good thing indeed to teach this lesson over and over until people understand that the only person responsible for rape is the rapist.

The victim of rape is never to blame. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. And yet many people seem incapable of grasping it.

And that's exactly why we still need a mountain of education of young people, to try and change this constant godawful blaming the victim stuff that you hear every single time somebody is raped.

I'd rather be raped once than jailed for a month let alone years.
On the list of injustice the latter is just as bad, at least.
That probably does suggest that 'education' about rape (including about avoiding being accused of rape, even when there is clear disagreement between the two people on whether it qualified) might be useful for some segment of the population.

RedCairo
I'd rather be raped once than jailed for a month let alone years.
On the list of injustice the latter is just as bad, at least.
That probably does suggest that 'education' about rape (including about avoiding being accused of rape, even when there is clear disagreement between the two people on whether it qualified) might be useful for some segment of the population.

Rape is not a choice.
Those who are raped are not given a choice about it.

reply to post by LightOrange

I feel like you unerstand it the least.

If a store owner closes the store for the night, leaves the money in the till, leaves the door unlocked, and puts the till on the sidewalk, is he/she not at least the tiniest bit at blame for when he/she inevitably gets robbed? Would anyone who calls him/her stupid be a "victim blamer"?

Why is it that you guys can only draw parallels to other crimes, and not address the one of which we are speaking. Give me one single example of a time when a victim is at fault for being raped. Come on. Ive been waiting a long time for it, and no one can provide.

The thing is, in your silly scenario, the shop would be private property. Therefore, if someone enters the property unlawfully, IT IS THEIR FAULT, they chose to commit the act. No one else.

And does it make the theif less of a theif? No, it doesn't. The theif is still 100% theif and the victim is still a moron.

Moron? Maybe. But not at fault.

Obviously this isn't the case with a large number of rapes, I'm just trying to outline that what you're presenting as "sound logic" really doesn't make a lick of sense.

Pretty sure I just spelled it out for you, and it makes perfect sense.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Since when does *responsibility* not translate into *blame*? Don't you see you are arguing semantics, or maybe I am just super stupid and dont get it. If someone accepts partial responsibility for something I think its taken for granted they also accept partial blame for something. responsibility=blame.

"sometimes women ask for it". Those were your words. That is not speaking of responsibility. That is saying there are times when it is ok to rape.

Yeah, but I am arguing semantics....

And what do the laws being different from state to state, and from nation to nation mean to you? In what ways are they different, if not in how they assess situations to come up with a verdict?

Why do you dodge the request? Where is your example of a state that has a law in which a victim can be held partially at fault?

Your black and white nonsense is irritating the heck out of people, including myself. I would really appreciate if you stop with all this defending rape nonsense, because its not true. Its childish behavior and deflection.

Boo hoo. You are defending rapists. Own it.

Quit backtracking and own it.

captaintyinknots
reply to post by LightOrange

 

Why is it that you guys can only draw parallels to other crimes, and not address the one of which we are speaking. Give me one single example of a time when a victim is at fault for being raped. Come on. Ive been waiting a long time for it, and no one can provide.

My friend, a very attractive girl, was promised free coc aine a few weekends ago while at a bar. She got in a car with 4 men and went to their shady house downtown. She got her free coc aine. She also got felt up by two guys at once, and when she tried to leave the other guys blocked the front door. She eventually got out through the garage and called me and we came and got her.

Again we have a situation where these guys were obviously 100% at fault, and complete scumbags. But what do you think happened when she told me the story? I told her she made an incredibly stupid decision, an that if she had gotten raped, the guilt woul be on her for making a stupid decision. Her response was to give me the "suck it" sign and say "FREE COCAINE, B****ES!".

She agreed when she was sober. And guess what? She no longer drinks as much at the bar and is more skeptical about the kind of people she talks to. She also won't get coc aine by going into someone's house, especially by herself.

However, in your opinion, she should go with 4 shady guys into a shady house to get free coc aine whenever she wants to, it's not her fault they're scumbags. Anyone who would tell her that doing so is irresponsible and ridiculous falls under the dishonorable title of a "victim blamer". Thank god there are intelligent people who don't buy into this rhetoric.

And does it make the theif less of a theif? No, it doesn't. The theif is still 100% theif and the victim is still a moron.

Moron? Maybe. But not at fault.

Wrong. In any situation the vast majority of people would tell the person in this situation that it is their own fault, and they would be correct. And that store owner wouldn't do that again, despite his likely initial rant about how someone robbed him and they are human trash.

Obviously this isn't the case with a large number of rapes, I'm just trying to outline that what you're presenting as "sound logic" really doesn't make a lick of sense.

Pretty sure I just spelled it out for you, and it makes perfect sense.

Maybe if I was 14 years old and couldn't apply my own brain to select situations, then you'd be making progress in making me as shallow as you and your senationalist possy who would like to keep this topic as black & white as possible -- most likely in defense of personal situations and anecdotes which do not apply accross the board.

reply to post by LightOrange


Obviously some people will not take personal responsibility for their predicaments. I wish I could give you a super star rating for your response!

I have two suggestions for you men who are so uptight about being accused of rape by your apparent anything goes lifestyle. Get a simple form for a girl to sign before you start having sex. She signs it and dates it, and preferable you video it with your phone so she doesn't say "I was under duress". It might put a damper on your sex life, but you will have proof when the slut accuses you of rape.

For you women out there who want to play perpetual victim, start thinking before you put yourself in bad situations. For those willing to protect themselves take some self defense classes, get a gun and learn how to use it or some other form of protection and stop depending on the kindness and supposed goodness of others. Face it... there are evil people in the world and you can't wish it away or tell them to stop it.

reply to post by LightOrange

My friend, a very attractive girl, was promised free coc aine a few weekends ago while at a bar. She got in a car with 4 men and went to their shady house downtown. She got her free coc aine. She also got felt up by two guys at once, and when she tried to leave the other guys blocked the front door. She eventually got out through the garage and called me and we came and got her.

Again we have a situation where these guys were obviously 100% at fault, and complete scumbags. But what do you think happened when she told me the story? I told her she made an incredibly stupid decision, an that if she had gotten raped, the guilt woul be on her for making a stupid decision. Her response was to give me the "suck it" sign and say "FREE COCAINE, B****ES!".

Exactly. THe guys were 100% at fault. Period.

She agreed when she was sober. And guess what? She no longer drinks as much at the bar and is more skeptical about the kind of people she talks to. She also won't get coc aine by going into someone's house, especially by herself.

Fantastic. Either way, though, it would not have been her fault had she been raped. What happened to her was not her fault.

However, in your opinion, she should go with 4 shady guys into a shady house to get free coc aine whenever she wants to, it's not her fault they're scumbags. Anyone who would tell her that doing so is irresponsible and ridiculous falls under the dishonorable title of a "victim blamer". Thank god there are intelligent people who don't buy into this rhetoric.

Bull. What I said is a person that would blame the victim, and say it is their fault, or that they were asking for it, is a victim blamer. And they are.

It doesnt matter how many poor choices a girl makes to get in the situation. Only one person can make the choice to rape. Only one person is at fault.

Wrong. In any situation the vast majority of people would tell the person in this situation that it is their own fault, and they would be correct. And that store owner wouldn't do that again, despite his likely initial rant about how someone robbed him and they are human trash.

Victim blame.

Let me ask, do you think a judge would take it easier on the criminal because the shop owner in this stupid scenario made a bad decision or two? Nope, because only the criminals are at fault.

Maybe if I was 14 years old and couldn't apply my own brain to select situations, then you'd be making progress in making me as shallow as you and your senationalist possy who would like to keep this topic as black & white as possible -- most likely in defense of personal situations and anecdotes which do not apply accross the board.

So where is my example then? Where is the example of a victim being at fault? No one has shown a single one yet. Because a victim cant be at fault. Which is the point.

All your silly personal attacks matter not. You still havent shown one single thing to back up the claim that a victim can be at fault.

UnifiedSerenity
-- snip --
What was revealed on this little questionnaire was that over 85% of the males said "yes" to, if they were out on a date and knew with 100% certainty that they could have sex with their date and not get into trouble would they even if she didn't want to have sex... ie rape her.

OMG.... Guess that shows how much things have changed. Many, many years ago when I was a young, unattached musician, I agreed to give an attractive girl I'd met that evening a lift home after we loaded the equipment. Once we were on the road she said, "Why don't you come in for a while? You won't believe all the things I know how to do..." I try my best not to hurt anyone's feelings so I hope I successfully hid my disgust. I just told her I had to get home because of plans I had the next day. That has to be one of the MOST "unsexy" things a girl ever said to me...

We have a sickness of soul / heart and it is showing by the way we disrespect one another in small and big ways.

Agreed...

Something I've never been able to shake off is a conversation I had with a co-worker. Her ex-husband had stopped by the shop and we were talking after he left. She mentioned that they got along better now than when they were married and I said it was a shame it didn't work out.

That's when she told me why they divorced.

They'd already had one child and she wanted another. Every time they talked about it, he would go over their finances with her and explain that he just wasn't comfortable with their ability to afford another, yet. That's when she quit taking any birth control...

Now before anybody starts lecturing me about condoms, I suggest you take a deep breath and make sure you've thought about what I've said so far. You know as well as I do that someone as dishonest as my co-worker would never have consented to sex with a condom. The sad part of it is that he would have been better off if he could have understood he was married to the wrong woman and just gotten divorced then!

When I asked her if there'd never been even one little moment when she felt badly about those child support checks she said, "Oh, he doesn't have to pay anything if he doesn't want to, but he'll damned well never see either one of those kids again!!

There are times when I get the feeling that women drastically underestimate what fatherhood means to a man. My heart didn't just ache for him, but for his kids, too, because of the type of person their mother is and the fact that they had to grow up with a part-time Daddy.

Years ago, I watched an Oprah show that was about child support. One of the men onstage finally made the comment that, if only they were honest with themselves, every woman there knew at least one woman who got pregnant in order to "trap" a guy into getting married. Oprah and her audience exploded with indignation. It was personally gratifying to have Oprah admit on a show several years later that that kind of thing happens.

It comes down to two simple words: Respect & Honesty

As far a "teaching" a psychopath not to violate someone else's body, Good Luck with that one!!! It's been discovered that psychopathy has a physical basis. A psychopath has a dysfunctional amygdala. That's a real problem because they are "technically" sane, just incapable of empathy, guilt and a lot of other emotions.

captaintyinknots

"sometimes women ask for it". Those were your words. That is not speaking of responsibility. That is saying there are times when it is ok to rape.

Yeah, but I am arguing semantics....

I said what I said, but it was within a certain context. You are clinging on to a few words and running with them perpetually. Technically the women could be accused of rape if she goes too far. Its a gray area between women forcing themselves on to a man, and a man forcing themselves on to a women. Sometimes the lines are blurred when intoxication is involved and people get the wrong messages. They are submissive at first or even enjoy it and suddenly change their mind. Humans are complicated animals.

Why do you dodge the request? Where is your example of a state that has a law in which a victim can be held partially at fault?

It is taken for granted that victims are partially at fault when the judge decides a verdict. If there were was durress involved such as weapons, if there was intoxication, if the messages given were clear enough, how the women acted(not just dressed), if there were any witnesses, the past history of each person, etc.

The judge/jury will determine IF it was actually rape and how serious it was. Why do you think there is 0-15 year sentence applicable?

Boo hoo. You are defending rapists. Own it.

Quit backtracking and own it.

Your not mature enough to discuss complicated topics like this. Boo-hoo back at you!

reply to post by BardingTheBard


guess that member didnt hear about the duke lacross case you know where the women made up the alegations of rape en.wikipedia.org...

In March 2006 Crystal Gail Mangum, an African American student at North Carolina Central University[1][2] who worked as a stripper,[3] dancer and escort,[4] falsely accused three white Duke University students, members of the Duke Blue Devils men's lacrosse team, of raping her at a party held at the house of two of the team's captains in Durham, North Carolina on March 13, 2006. Many people involved in, or commenting on the case, including prosecutor Mike Nifong, called the alleged assault a hate crime or suggested it might be one.[5][6][7][8]

this woman alone set back female rape victims so far back its not even funny

and dont say that women rapists get treated worse then men as hey men dont get a top 10 sexiest rapists list on the net do they? www.funnyordie.com... its from funny or die so take that for what its worth but even if satire its horrible satire to say the least

conservativeamazon.wordpress.com...

www.wendymcelroy.com...

On a Friday night in 1990, after hanging out with a friend for several hours at a club - said friend disappeared for the night and left his female friend (stranger to me) without a ride and about 35 miles from home. I was plastered, and not going to drive as the club was next to a motel. She asked for a ride and I offered to drive her home in the morning as she was about 6 months pregnant, but I was going to have to get a motel room for the evening as I was drunk and not driving in such a state. We decided to split the cost of the room and both agreed that sleeping was all that was going to take place. She was pregnant and also not my type in the slightest. At the time, I thought I was in love with a woman attending UNCW. I seem to recall we even had separate beds. I woke up about 2 hours later - still destroyed by the alcohol - to find my clothes removed from the waist down and the girl on top of me wailing like a banshee and quite roughly enjoying herself. She had apparently brought me to erection - not hard as I'm one of those men who can hold one for hours, awake or asleep, sober or drunk. She told me everything was okay and to go back to sleep and despite my best effort to the contrary, I was unable to move or speak coherently in my still very inebriated and half-conscious state and did fall asleep again quickly. After most of my drunken stupor wore off around 7 am or so, I awoke again to find her on top of me - this time with a more menacing attitude as she knew I was in a better position to respond physically this time. I had began to wiggle out from under her (taking care not to hurt her baby) when she sternly warned me to "be quiet" and "not be forceful" and made it clear that she would cry rape if I tried to stop it. I was stunned to say the least and not sure how to respond. I could easily have thrown her across the room and off of me, but was concerned for her child and took her threat very, very seriously. She said it so easily that I doubt I was her first. I weighed my options for a moment and came to the conclusion that a sober, 6 or 7-month pregnant college student of 24 was far more likely to be believed by the authorities than a drunk 19-year old Marine in the best shape of his life. I frequented that club a lot and I'm sure several people saw me leave with her. I was pretty much #ed - in more than one way - at that point. I complied by lying still while she continued to warn and threaten me and she eventually orgasmed again and got off me. I don't know how long that rape took as I tried to disconnect my mind from that scene. Further, I have no idea how many times she had actually raped me that night (at least twice), but I was extremely sore for a few days. As a small favor, she turned out to be disease free. I've always tried to pretend it was nothing or play it off like a wild night that ended weird whenever the memory surfaced. After 17 years of pretending, the floodgates opened this week and it has been extremely difficult to deal with as my denial was swept away. I have a lot of counseling in my future in order to heal after the band-aid was ripped away. This was very difficult to admit, not only personally, but to a very dear friend who has been there before. As you know, rape is about power and control. She had power over me that night, even though I could have easily thrown her across the room and out the window. Her pregnancy and threat of jail against me were the only weapons she needed to have her way that night. My family is unaware and I'm still trying to figure out how to tell them. Eventually, I'll write about it myself.

www.wnd.com... lol wnd so not the best of sources but they seem to back up their claims this time.....article has 13 pages of female sex offenders who raped male victims.....

pjmedia.com... comments in this one are enough to have people loose faith in humanity..... so be forwarned

toysoldier.wordpress.com...



continued in next post

1. He must have wanted it, since he remained erect (I guess women being raped never experience lubrication, either), or he was somehow “asking for it” in one way or another, such as getting drunk or sharing a room. Any of this sound familiar? 2. Men, being on average the more sexually driven sex, don’t mind being raped and aren’t traumatized by the experience. Another parallel: Though less often said openly nowadays, one still sometimes hears it suggested that raping a promiscuous woman or a prostitute is in some sense a lesser crime than raping a “decent” woman, on the theory that it wouldn’t be as big a deal to the victim. 3. It serves him right for being such a weakling. The frequency which with this one was repeated is interesting because in traditionalist/patriarchal morality, strength/power is often considered the prime virtue of a man, just as chastity is considered the prime virtue of a woman. In other words, we have here a masculine parallel to “The slut had it coming.” Violate the expectations placed on your sex, and there will be no compassion for you. Thus, we have a nearly perfect recapitulation of the traditional ways of denying, minimizing, or condoning the rape of women. In fact, there were a number of women in the comments saying stuff like this. That initially surprised me, but it shouldn't have. It’s worth noting how people can suffer from positive stereotypes about their sex. Much of the indifference to crimes like this (By no means all- there are also “progressive” reasons not to care, which sometimes overlap), or to men being raped in prison, or to male victims of domestic violence, and so on, can be attributed to the traditional belief that men, who are supposed to be the strong, stoic sex, don’t let themselves be harmed or abused by others, don’t (or at least shouldn’t) feel pain the way women do, and certainly shouldn’t admit it to it if they do. A perusal of the comment thread at the linked article will certainly testify to that, as will observing attitudes on the issue of men being raped in prison. A crying woman inspires compassion; a crying man inspires contempt. It’s drilled (or beaten, as needed) into everyone from an early age. God only knows how much injustice and misery has happened through the years because of this mentality, and how much we’ll continue to see. And I don’t think it’s ever going to end.

thesuperfluousman.blogspot.com... yeah sure looks like males are the only ones encouraging rape and victim shaming here...... bonus comment by some one saying men need to be raped more often in the comment section.... yeah like thats gonna help things

www.womanist-musings.com...

In feminist circles much time is dedicated to issues that stop women from reporting rapes. The Curvature is an excellent example of a blog that daily posts about rape, and its effects. When I think of the hardships that women face getting rape to be treated seriously by the authorities, I cannot help but wonder how much harder is it for men, who have very few support networks in place? How much harder is it for men, if they can be publicly ridiculed when they share their accounts? Men who are raped by other men fear being labelled homosexual even though rape is a crime about power and not about sex. "People will tend to fault the male victim instead of the rapist. Stephen Donaldson, president of Stop Prisoner Rape (a national education and advocacy group), says that the suppression of knowledge of male rape is so powerful and pervasive that criminals such as burglars and robbers sometimes rape their male victims as a sideline solely to prevent them from going to the police." It makes one wonder how many are suffering in shame and silence, afraid to talk about their experiences? This is something we need to start addressing and creating support networks for. No matter the gender, rape is a violation of the worst kind. Rape crisis counsellors estimate that while only one in 50 raped women report the crime to the police, the rates of under-reporting among men are even higher (Brochman, 1991). We think of men as always strong and therefore there is this understanding that they should be able to protect themselves in all situations. Women hold take back the night rallies, but do we stop to think that darkness may be just as dangerous to men? A predator, is a predator and if they seek to assault an individual, gender may not play a role on who is victimized. Men are taught to hold in their emotions and not express their pain. How many suffer because they feel it is the "manly" thing to do. How many ignore their pain because we have taught them as children that males don't cry when they are hurt, they simply move on to the next task?

en.wikipedia.org... you wanna stop wide spread rape then have people actualy do something for inmates getting rapped instead of telling them they "deserved it " because of their crimes or that "you hope bubba visits some criminal in his cell at night" .as condoning rape in one part of society is not a way to fight it and blaming one gender as the sole perpetrators of rape isnt gonna solve anything its just gonna get people to either ignore you or just not give a frack

www.hrw.org...

all rape is bad and to act like in some cases its justified and legitimaet is nonsense and the reason we have this problem in not just the country but the entire world

www.hrw.org...

www.theguardian.com...

and inmate does not = male or female but both with males being more likely to be raped by staff then females evidently

nplusonemag.com...

When it comes to rape, the numbers look even better: from 1980 to 2005, the estimated number of sexual assaults in the US fell by 85 percent. Scholars attribute this stunning collapse to various factors, including advances in gender equality, the abortion of unwanted children, and the spread of internet pornography.

this talks about how it looks like crime is down but its really reporting that is down more or less or at least thats what i took from the article

reply to post by RalagaNarHallas


I think a man would be less likely to report getting raped by a women because he would be thought of as WEEK or worst a closet homosexual. Besides in a women dominated world women are above the law just like men are above the law in male dominated societies. Its always the mans fault....

We have gone beyond equality where women in general dominate relationships and men resent this. I think this is the reason for the high divorce rate in america and some european countries. Men dont like getting pushed around by women because it goes against their nature. When I marry(which I doubt I ever will, I like being FREE) I want a wife, not another mom! I lived with my parents for 25 years and that was enough.

i will say i am astounded with the shaming of both sides of the spectrum from the "slut had it coming" to guys cant get rapped its all here an its all equally disgusting ive seen some members in this thread talk about how much they despise rape only to see them posting hey well hope that guy gets visited by bubba in his cell tonight its the double standard of only one sex can rape and the she had it coming fools that make this such a huge problem in this country

as some one who was almost raped in county jail over a age related dui( i had a beer under 21 so automattic dui) i take the ignoring/encouraging of prison rape jokes to be insulting and from the other side of the spectrum i was accused in 2009 of rape by a girl who pretty much started blowing me while i was driving my other female friend home in her car ,i told her to stop 5 separate times she didnt listen and she would not get out of Her car when i finally got her to my house got her a blanket and left her in her car to sleep it off,20 minutes later shes in my bed crawling on me and trying to forcibly mount me so eventualy just figured it would be less awkward to just give in

the next day she did not remember any thing and was confused to not find her clothes near by ( i had left in the morning to go pick my parents up from the air port in SF and i come back to police accusing me of rape as evidently she had called them and told them I raped her,LUCKILY for me im a kinky/paranoid person and had cameras in my bedroom w audio pickups (and still do to this day w signs saying they are there blatantly posted ) i pushed play on the video from the night before showed her not listening to ME saying no and after the cops saw her riding me like a pony making happy sex sounds they asked me if i wanted to press charges against her i declined as i did not want it to be another one of those false rape allegations that set victims back and that i had eventually consented even under duress and that if they wanted to investigate the inmate who attempted rape me in county they didnt think it was worth their time as" it was prison and that's just how it is"(both were female sheriffs not males btw)

TLDR screw victim shaming and screw just blaming one gender/race/religion for something while ignoring the actions of another,and just because one person once said rape falsely does not mean that every one is the same its a double edged sword that cuts both ways for every false rape accusation their are mostlikely 1000 other rape victims that do not come forward after cases like these make them feel even more stigma then before.

and most importantly that for some of us members its personal and this is why we take it as such and have such deeply held opinions


graphics1.snopes.com...
and for a rare moment of humor in the thread i give you the only know funny case of rape ever.....and it comes from my home state of montana and involves a horny moose and an unfortunate bison statue
www.snopes.com...
www.prairiestateoutdoors.com.../scattershooting/article/moose_romances_bison_statue

reply to post by SpaDe_


Have you ever lusted after a woman? Have you ever undressed a woman with your eyes? If you have, that's rape, unless she gave you consent. I am in favor of men and women respecting themselves and everyone around them, and then perhaps rape would stop.

I think that sufficiently expands the term's meaning to nearly "infinite."

Looks like no one is gonna change their mind or admit to it. So we are left with those who have respect for the female of the species and those who don't. :|

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

I said what I said, but it was within a certain context. You are clinging on to a few words and running with them perpetually. Technically the women could be accused of rape if she goes too far. Its a gray area between women forcing themselves on to a man, and a man forcing themselves on to a women. Sometimes the lines are blurred when intoxication is involved and people get the wrong messages. They are submissive at first or even enjoy it and suddenly change their mind. Humans are complicated animals.

Here's the thing you are missing: There is NO CONTEXT WHATSOEVER in which a woman (or a man) asks to be raped. Furthermore, not only did you say it, you went on for many posts trying to back it up and justify it.

its all in the thread for anyone to see.

It doesnt matter when a person decides they dont want to do it. Once the decision is voiced, thats it.

It is taken for granted that victims are partially at fault when the judge decides a verdict. If there were was durress involved such as weapons, if there was intoxication, if the messages given were clear enough, how the women acted(not just dressed), if there were any witnesses, the past history of each person, etc.

Please provide citation to back up the claim that judges decide how at fault victims are.

The judge/jury will determine IF it was actually rape and how serious it was. Why do you think there is 0-15 year sentence applicable?

How serious is not the same as a victim being at fault. Every crime out there has varying sentences. They exist so that a judge can take into account factors about the perpetrator, not the victim.

Your not mature enough to discuss complicated topics like this. Boo-hoo back at you!

*you meant you're.

I think the minute anything becomes "there is no context whatever" there is a problem -- nothing in the universe is that polarized. Only great emotion makes it seem so.

The definition of rape (not stranger-rape obviously, this thread has been dominantly about consensual not-quite-sex got- out-of-control for quite some time now) has a subjective factor, and is not always the same for men and women in the same situation.

Even times when it is legitimately rape from the woman's point of view it may not be from the man's, and this is particularly so when (as the person above noted) there are mind-altering substances involved and/or the situation is a last-instant mind change (in part because at that point depending on the situation, there are some mind-altering hormones going on in the male for that alone).

Consideration for other human beings ought to be a given, and nobody even on this thread that I have seen, would support what ought to legitimately be called rape by anybody. But there is definitely a spectrum in this situation just like there is in every other spectrum of human behavior and relationships which exist.

reply to post by RedCairo

I think the minute anything becomes "there is no context whatever" there is a problem -- nothing in the universe is that polarized. Only great emotion makes it seem so. The definition of rape (not stranger-rape obviously, this thread has been dominantly about consensual not-quite-sex got- out-of-control for quite some time now) has a subjective factor, and is not always the same for men and women in the same situation.

So Ill pose the same question to you as I have to others: Can you provide a single example of any time a person can state "No" or "Stop" in a sexual situation, and the other person forces them to proceed, that is not black and white?

Even times when it is legitimately rape from the woman's point of view it may not be from the man's, and this is particularly so when (as the person above noted) there are mind-altering substances involved and/or the situation is a last-instant mind change (in part because at that point depending on the situation, there are some mind-altering hormones going on in the male for that alone).

The perpetrators point of view does not matter. If the victim stated "No", then the perpetrator is in the wrong.

Many murderers do not believe what they did was wrong, either.

Mind altering substances are not an excuse to commit any crime, let alone rape. Ever heard of someone getting set free for murder because they were high or drunk?

Consideration for other human beings ought to be a given, and nobody even on this thread that I have seen, would support what ought to legitimately be called rape by anybody. But there is definitely a spectrum in this situation just like there is in every other spectrum of human behavior and relationships which exist.

Ill await your example, then.