Genuine U.S. Military questionnaire: Would you obey an order to fire on U.S. citizens ?

reply to post by Snarl

In all seriousness, I hope you're right and I'm wrong ... but I'm not.

Well, look at it this way? If I'm wrong and 85% of US troops actually would turn the full might of the US Military inward? It won't matter for a great many of us. We won't live through the first week anyway.

I'm betting on our own guys not being able to live with themselves after doing that and having the presence of mind to think of that ahead of time. Who knows tho... I could be in for a rude shock and things in the Military could have changed that much? I hope no one ever gets put there to find out.

Snarl

You have what? A couple of friends in a non-hostile environment who "scoff at the idea?" Have you asked them about mandatory training schedules to define what is legal and not legal? Are their officers and noncommissioned officers reinforcing this knowledge in their office spaces? I bet the 'honest' answer to that question is, "No." I can assure you it's not on the training schedules of the soldiers in this theater of operations.

Odd, I've heard infantry first sgt's give the ROE and LOAC lectures to their little ducklings many times. Yes, you do get the lecture on what's going to be legal and what's not. It's pointed out until you're sick of it. Even SOCOM teams get informed what's going to be acceptable force and what's not, and you can't (in general) go around doing what you feel like and get caught at it. Although grant you, there's a lot of SSS and NJP instead of court martialing that goes on there.

You want to challenge me on my belief that it's as high as 85%? I'll admit I'm probably off, because I didn't take into account the 'herd mentality' which would be prevalent in such a dramatic situation. It'll probably be an even 100% after the first few shots are exchanged. My bad.

Go back and look at the history of what happened after the 29 Palms survey went out. The OP lifts it out of its historic context. The s#t flew afterwards. There was a BIG reaction. Now, you start shooting at ME, and yep, I'd probably shoot back. I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect me to stand there while you blow my brains out.

Snarl
reply to post by afoolbyanyothername

 

What people think about this subject on ATS is irrelevant. Go ask the guys and gals on Active Duty. More than 85% of them would obey if the populace was defined a threat to the national security.

ETA: The outward attitude of most soldiers towards civilians is frightening. That's the voice of (daily) experience speaking, friend.

I've been retired from active duty for 15 years. Times have definitely changed.

edit on 2792013 by Snarl because: ETA

85% huh?

Being active duty I can tell you that I would not.
Neither would any of the many, many soldiers I work with closely out here in Afghanistan.

You're full of it.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


yeah. This guy acts like they aren't people too
Like they are robots and don't have families and friends themselves .....

Its mentality like that THAT CREATES a divide.

I bet he thinks cops aren't people too....all robots who plug into alcoves like the borg....

Snarl
reply to post by afoolbyanyothername

 

What people think about this subject on ATS is irrelevant. Go ask the guys and gals on Active Duty. More than 85% of them would obey if the populace was defined a threat to the national security.

ETA: The outward attitude of most soldiers towards civilians is frightening. That's the voice of (daily) experience speaking, friend.

I've been retired from active duty for 15 years. Times have definitely changed.

edit on 2792013 by Snarl because: ETA

The local police have absolutely no qualms at all about firing on the people they are supposed to protect - none. Why would the military whose entire job is centered around the use of high powered weaponry designed to kill others? We are no longer humans, we're targets. What those military folks don't get is they are targets too, there is another group that controls them.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Snarl

 

In all seriousness, I hope you're right and I'm wrong ... but I'm not.

Well, look at it this way? If I'm wrong and 85% of US troops actually would turn the full might of the US Military inward? It won't matter for a great many of us. We won't live through the first week anyway.

I'm betting on our own guys not being able to live with themselves after doing that and having the presence of mind to think of that ahead of time. Who knows tho... I could be in for a rude shock and things in the Military could have changed that much? I hope no one ever gets put there to find out.

I'd turn in my rank and walk.

It's one thing to deploy to a hell hole like Afghanistan. It's an entirely different thing to use our military capabilities on our own families and friends.

Why is this thread full of civilians who know military personal arguing with actual veterans? Apparently our (veterans) direct experience with the military gets trumped by a bunch of civilians who have talked to military personnel.

You know as an ACTUAL veteran and not someone who just knows someone in the military, I have direct experience dealing with enlisted and watching them take orders from NCOs and COs alike. They may bitch and moan about some order, but at the end of the day, they will follow it even if unlawful. In addition to the 4 things I outlined on my first post in this thread, Snarl brings up an excellent point with the herd mentality thing. If 7 out of 10 your squad mates decide to follow orders unquestioningly, those last 3 are going to have a tough time speaking their mind considering that the other members outnumber them and are armed. Add in the law that insubordination can result in execution during wartimes, and you have the recipe for 10 out of 10 squad members killing US civilians.

I know thinking like this is hard for civilians, but that is because they haven't lived the lifestyle. Not to mention, the military is a great place for dominating psychopaths to thrive. Also the same dregs of society that end up in prison also end up in our military. Heck the government sometimes forces these dregs to join the military in lieu of jail time. You guys need to get this picture of a soldier being that friendly kid from down the street out of your head. Sure these people are in the military, but they don't make up the bulk of the force.

One last thing, stop listening to what a soldier tells you he would do in this situation while in a civil conversation. That soldier may be telling you the truth or then again he may just be telling you what you want to hear. Heck the soldier may even believe in his head that he wouldn't do it, but again that herd mentality thing is a hard thing to overcome. For instance, if I was still in the military I'd believe that I wouldn't do this, but even I'm not sure what I would do if put in a situation like what is being described in the OP.

Wrabbit2000I'm betting on our own guys not being able to live with themselves after doing that and having the presence of mind to think of that ahead of time. Who knows tho... I could be in for a rude shock and things in the Military could have changed that much? I hope no one ever gets put there to find out.

See this is where your thought process is breaking down. Do you know what it is like to be on a battlefield? For one you don't have time to stop and think about the repercussions of your actions. Also look at soldiers in Vietnam, after being jacked on adrenaline all the time, they did some atrocious things to the civilians.

So let's go back to the OP's example. If a bunch of oath keepers or just armed civilians resisting a gun grab were holding out and stopping you from following through on your order to confiscate the populous' guns, there is going to come a time where you will start firing at them. Especially if they are firing at you first.

Snarl
reply to post by afoolbyanyothername

 

What people think about this subject on ATS is irrelevant. Go ask the guys and gals on Active Duty. More than 85% of them would obey if the populace was defined a threat to the national security.

ETA: The outward attitude of most soldiers towards civilians is frightening. That's the voice of (daily) experience speaking, friend.

I've been retired from active duty for 15 years. Times have definitely changed.

edit on 2792013 by Snarl because: ETA

Pretty sure this was answered many times.... But no. A Hell no.

Even our company grade officers would be like "uhhh, what? No and go F yourself."

Acitive duty or Guard duty are not robots.

...we just need a job like you.

Sorry you feel this way.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Firstly:

I am a grown man capable of making thoughtful decisions. I think about 2nd 3rd and 4th order effects of my actions. I know what I would and would not put up with.

You can sit there and assume you know, just because enlisted follow orders, that we would just shoot people without question. But if you, as a service member, witnessed unlawful orders being given, and unlawful orders being followed, and said nothing, then you are or were part of the problem.

I can't stand former soldiers that take a look back at their service with disdain. But more and more I hear stories of soldiers who see their service as such and we come to find out that it was through their inaction and sitting in the bleachers as a spectator that created the circumstances of their disillusionment to begin with.

You sat on the sidelines and did nothing. Said nothing. Instead of helping make your service better by taking the "Not in my Army" attitude to such gross misconduct, you took a hands off approach and watched the evil happen only to post on a forum years later complaining about the evil you enabled by your inactions.

And then you have the gall to lecture people about their friends and families. Simply because they aren't in the military.

Well you're talking to military now. Active duty. Currently deployed.

It is funny how people on this website are responding. You know this being a conspiracy website and all. Did you guys forget about this shining pearl of government response which shows that yes indeed you will be fired on by the military?

Waco siege

reply to post by Krazysh0t


You'd have to show me where any military of any branch fired on anyone at Waco... It's pretty far OT either way, but when inevitably another thread appears on it, the Texas Rangers report that really looked at everything, condemned the Justice Department enormously ....I doubt they even take the same elevator cars together after all that and how it reads. The Military wasn't implicated though. They were there. Delta operators. They just didn't do any shooting. That day had enough utter chaos without more added anyway.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


so you served when? the 70s when the state of the military was a joke?

I have military in my family. Recently retired commissioned officers.

They have had this conversation with those under them. They would arm themselves and proceed to arrest anyone issuing such orders.

Your days of the military were a disgrace to say the least. everyone getting high and drunk and running around without an ounce of discipline.pfft.

maybe your generation would fire on us like you obeyed other illegal orders elsewhere ...but not this generation.

Hence why it hasn't happened .....and as someone else mentioned...all hell was raised when this questionnaire went around....I would hate to think how your generation would have answered ....

and don't crap on civies....everyone you know and yourself now ARE civies...

reply to post by projectvxn


You are making some assumptions there pal. You have no idea what I did or didn't do or what I did and did not witness. Regardless of that, you and I both know that these people you are disgusted with exist in the military and just because you are aware of them doesn't mean that they will just disappear. They are the swing votes when a handful of the soldiers in a squad obey the order to fire on civilians, they will be the ones to complete the herd mentality to bring it up to the oppressing levels that can get the full squad to participate. It's nice that you believe that you wouldn't fire on civilians, but then again you are posting anonymously on a conspiracy website. I may not have talked about it much in this thread, but I also have history on my side.

Let's analyze this from another perspective. You are a low ranking soldier with doubts about this order and are standing on a street in Anywhereville, U.S.A. staring at a bunch of people unwilling to hand over their firearms. Who are you going to voice your dissent to? Your line Sergent? Your platoon leader? These are the guys who gave you the order to begin with. What's going to prevent these same people from ordering the rest of the squad to just execute you for failure to obey? The only option you have left is to go A.W.O.L, good luck getting away before getting shot in the back.

I guess it is time to give you guys an idea of what I believe will happen. I believe that what the article says is just as incorrect as the idea that soldiers won't fire on civilians. This is where I bring in the history aspect. What is going to happen is that whole units will disobey lead by a CO who disagrees with the order and has the authority and power to disobey and cause his entire unit to do the same through his own commands. Maybe a few low ranking soldiers will do the same, but they will either have to go A.W.O.L., get executed, or just get arrested. No one will remember them. Meanwhile, while this is going on, the officers with less scruples will just echo the order down the chain of command and those units will remain loyal.

Where do I get this idea from? A little thing called the Civil War. What is one of the first things people mention when describing the Civil War? Brother against brother. So to say that it won't happen here is idiocy, it has happened before, therefore it will happen again.

Snarl
reply to post by afoolbyanyothername

 

What people think about this subject on ATS is irrelevant. Go ask the guys and gals on Active Duty. More than 85% of them would obey if the populace was defined a threat to the national security.

ETA: The outward attitude of most soldiers towards civilians is frightening. That's the voice of (daily) experience speaking, friend.

I've been retired from active duty for 15 years. Times have definitely changed.

edit on 2792013 by Snarl because: ETA

I agree it is all based on how it is sold to the troops. For those who know a minimal amount of history it has happened before so why could it not happen again? The gun confiscation thing with a 30 day turn in period might be problematic in today's environment but who is to say they would try and use the troops (?) when there are plenty of swat who could target a few to get the many to comply. Like building a wall and people climb over said wall with no consequences... If the first few are shot or wounded then the other wall climbers have second thoughts... N. Korea, Area 51 and others worked that out long ago so that finally just a few signs work as well as a wall...

Ok ,A:There is far more combat power out than in.
B:I haven't even HEARD of anyone who would do it .but I have heard how they would fire on the officer who gave such an order.

I very seriously doubt anyone would be stupid enough to attempt to hold ANY large American city as civilians are better equipped and better skilled shooters who are't restrained by rules or law.
I can practically guarantee 90% of JSOC would rebel.

reply to post by tadaman


What are you talking about? I'm 28, my time of enlistment was from 2003 - 2006. I already mentioned earlier in this thread that I was in Iraq. Do you honestly believe that the military has cleaned up since the 70's? Did you not see the torture scandals in Iraq or the helicopter video released by Manning? How about the rape culture that permeates the military?

As a former member of the armed forces, HELL NO. I took my oath seriously, I take the Constitution seriously, and I believe there are more active duty than not who's first impulse would be to turn on whatever "authority" gave such orders, and start by shooting the messenger.

This is not a genuine military questionnaire. It was and academic questionaire give to a couple hundered Marines before it blew into a controversy. It does show that nearly 20 years ago the same paranoid crap that goes on now was going on then.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Then I will go back to what I said earlier ...you are full of crap. So if you are military then you wouldn't try to compare the unpleasantness of war to how OUR OWN citizens in uniform will respond to us....unless you were the sort of person who shouldn't have ever been in the military due to a weak mind and a lack of common sense.


Its a loose and weak argument......Not buying it Mr.expert