"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

And when Jesus called the Pharisees "white washed tombs for dead man's bodies" He meant it as a compliment.

reply to post by charles1952


Charles,

We could start a debate as to whether the Gospels really tell a story of resurrection, I believe that they do not, that could go on for pages and pages, and derail this thread. In my opinion, the crux of this thread is about the concept of the existence of righteous people, as Jesus taught, contrasted with concept of original sin, of which Paul was the father. It's not about whether or not Jesus rose from the dead, which I don't believe happened.

Jesus never taught original sin. The Old Testament teaches against original sin. Jesus taught a path that leads to righteousness through actions and thoughts. Jesus never taught that, by his dying, Abel, Abraham, Moses, Job, his father Joseph, and other biblical figures that were identified as righteous, needed his death to be redeemed.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

It appears I'm guilty of causing some misunderstanding. Please help me out. But first of all, I have a question. So what? By that I mean take or leave original sin, there is or there isn't any such thing, by the time we've been able to make choices for a year or so, we've all sinned.

Who hasn't been hateful or greedy? Who hasn't told a lie or been lustful. So whether we are sinners on the day of our conception or the day we turn six, what is the significance in your eyes?

Here's a wonderful bit of Chesterton:

Modern masters of science are much impressed with the need of beginning all inquiry with a fact. The ancient masters of religion were quite equally impressed with that necessity. They began with the fact of sin--a fact as practical as potatoes. Whether or no man could be washed in miraculous waters, there was no doubt at any rate that he wanted washing.

But certain religious leaders in London, not mere materialists, have begun in our day not to deny the highly disputable water, but to deny the indisputable dirt. Certain new theologians dispute original sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved. Some followers of the Reverend R.J.Campbell, in their almost too fastidious spirituality, admit divine sinlessness, which they cannot see even in their dreams. But they essentially deny human sin, which they can see in the street.

The strongest saints and the strongest sceptics alike took positive evil as the starting-point of their argument. If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philosopher can only draw one of two deductions. He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or he must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do. The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat.

www.pagebypagebooks.com...

So, if we have all sinned (and if you disagree, could you point me toward some teenagers or adults who haven't?), none of us are righteous. Those who claim they are, are among the most in need of "washing."

There was the exception of Mary, who was prepared for the role of Jesus' mother from the time of her conception, and some Biblical figures who became righteous, but righteousness is not the common lot of man until we have been forgiven and start over.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Charles,

There was the exception of Mary, who was prepared for the role of Jesus' mother from the time of her conception, and some Biblical figures who became righteous, but righteousness is not the common lot of man until we have been forgiven and start over.

Was Mary Righteous? Was she born that way? Do you think that Mary sinned, ever? If Mary was prepared for her role as a virgin mother, why did it come as a surprise to her?

Luke 1
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

So what? By that I mean take or leave original sin, there is or there isn't any such thing, by the time we've been able to make choices for a year or so, we've all sinned.

Who hasn't been hateful or greedy? Who hasn't told a lie or been lustful. So whether we are sinners on the day of our conception or the day we turn six, what is the significance in your eyes?

You see sin as something that is born from evil. Something that emanates from a deity that is deliberately working against your God. You see it as a failure. I don't believe in sin, per say, as defined as going against God's will or breaking God's law. We weren't meant to be born perfect.

I believe that my soul IS the essence of who I am, and who I am, naturally, is a reflection of God. I think that all "dis-ease" is born from not being true to who we really are. We are learning to be who we are, and to be the same on the inside (thought) as we are on the outside (deeds), and to become completely transparent (naked), without shame.

I have made mistakes that have caused others pain, and knowing that, I feel a pang of remorse. I learn from these painful experiences, both committed by me and against me, and use my inner moral compass to move forward and learn from my mistakes, making me a better person for it.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

Where would I ever get fresh viewpoints, if not for you?

Was Mary Righteous? Was she born that way? Do you think that Mary sinned, ever?

I believe she was born sinless, therefore righteous. The Church teaches she stayed sinless, and I don't have any evidence to the contrary. Mary had daily contact with God, that had to have a huge effect on her.

If Mary was prepared for her role as a virgin mother, why did it come as a surprise to her?

Because the preparation was before she was even born. I suspect she was born as a normal girl in the eyes of everyone, and grew up impressing the neighbors with her piety and obedience.

You see sin as something that is born from evil.

Right.

Something that emanates from a deity that is deliberately working against your God.

That's not quite how I'd put it. First Satan isn't a deity, he's just one of God's creations that rebelled against God. (Not a good career move, by the way.) Although evil does come from Satan, as opposed to coming from God, Satan's job is to lie, distort, and damage.

In your terms, Satan is working to darken or distort us as a reflection of God. He offers us the chance to grab onto some temptation, like anger, knowing that it will darken or distort us if we accept. And, of course, we often do.

I don't believe in sin, per say, as defined as going against God's will or breaking God's law.

Ok, can you believe in sin as deliberately distancing ourselves from God? Turning to follow some other desire rather than the desire for Him?

We weren't meant to be born perfect.

We are, after Eden, meant to become perfect.

I believe that my soul IS the essence of who I am, and who I am, naturally, is a reflection of God. I think that all "dis-ease" is born from not being true to who we really are. We are learning to be who we are, and to be the same on the inside (thought) as we are on the outside (deeds), and to become completely transparent (naked), without shame.

Although the wording is unusual, I can agree with you. But I would insist that the reflection we are now, is a cracked and dirty one. The reflection has to be mended and kept clean.

I have made mistakes that have caused others pain, and knowing that, I feel a pang of remorse. I learn from these painful experiences, both committed by me and against me, and use my inner moral compass to move forward and learn from my mistakes, making me a better person for it.

I rejoice that you are a better person, I would like to be one, too. But be careful with using the term "mistake." I can make a "mistake" in adding and never know it. Mistakes are expected, we're only human. What we deal with in this world is sin. We know what is right, and do the wrong thing anyway. Or, even, we know what is right, and fail to do it.

Keep your reflection bright!

With respect,
Charles1952

What is righteousness (as described by oneself) but the ego discarding the unnecessary to bolster its value of currency in itself...and sinners...mmm...

Placed at the altar of koan, this statement, in and of itself, was clearly not for mortal mens' ears...

Å99

reply to post by windword

We weren't meant to be born perfect.

Its human nature to sin and as Christians themselves say, its near impossible for a man to live a "perfectly sinless life. However, the Bible teaches that the remedy for sin is sincere repentance on the part of the sinner which results in forgiveness from God. A righteous man humbles himself and seek repentance from God.



"Then I acknowledged my sin to You; I did not cover up my guilt... and You forgave the guilt of my sin." ---
- Psalm 32:5

"if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."
- 2Chronicles 7:14

"on account of sins. When our transgressions prevail over us, thou dost forgive them."
- Psalms 65:3

"Thou didst forgive the iniquity of thy people; thou didst pardon all their sin. "
- Psalms 85:2

'The LORD is slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression,
- Numbers 14:18

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
- Isaiah 55:7

"And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me."
- Jeremiah 33:8


The Christian idea that a man can be redeemed of his sins through the "sacrifice" of Jesus is on the same lines as the Hindu belief that a mans sin can be washed by bathing in the River Ganges. Such theologies are not in line with these Biblical teachings regarding sin, repentance and forgiveness.

Luke 5:30-32 New International Version (NIV)

30 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

*******************************
For crying out loud. Jesus was speaking in terms that the people could understand. He wasnt' saying the righteous were sinless and didn't need him. What he said was very obvious ... he came for everyone but some people need him more. Just like everyone on the planet gets sick with headcolds but those who have life threatening illness are the ones that need the doctor .... not the ones with headcolds. And Jesus is the doctor for the soul.

Again .. hang it up ... 2000 years of Christian theology has it easily explained.
It's all there and easily found online IF you really wanted to know.

sk0rpi0n
Such theologies are not in line with these Biblical teachings regarding sin, repentance and forgiveness.

Dead wrong. The agenda here is obvious ... and it won't work.
Jesus Redemptive Death Part of God's Plan

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received", St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."398 In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant.399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God's suffering Servant.400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.401

"For our sake God made him to be sin"

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."402 Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.403 By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."404

603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.405 But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"406 Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son".407

MORE AT THE LINK

reply to post by charles1952


Charles,

I believe she was born sinless, therefore righteous. The Church teaches she stayed sinless, and I don't have any evidence to the contrary. Mary had daily contact with God, that had to have a huge effect on her.

This is a perplexing statement for me. Aren't all babies born sinless? Does the church teach that all babies are born in sin because of the sins of Adam and Eve, or are all babies born pre-convicted of the sins that they WILL commit?

How can a baby, that has absolutely no capacity to sin, be righteous? If Mary was righteous at birth, then all babies are born righteous.

If God prepared Mary, in the womb before her birth, to be sinless, does that mean that she didn't have the capacity to sin? If God prepared Mary, in the womb before her birth, to be sinless, does that mean that she didn't have free will?

Mary had daily contact with God, that had to have a huge effect on her.

Don't all of God's children have daily contact with God?

Ok, can you believe in sin as deliberately distancing ourselves from God? Turning to follow some other desire rather than the desire for Him?

You and I have a fundamental difference in our definitions of sin. I believe that all humans are driven to seek and experience God. Even sin is an attempt to experience the divine. Sin may be a personal tactic to conquer "fate" and take control over one's life, rather than accept defeat as God's will. A bank robber may be convinced that it's not God's will that he should be poor.

Sin may be committed to impress God.

A serial killer may think that he's doing God's work by eliminating prostitutes, for example. Or, a serial killer, who kills for "fun", may do so because at the time of his victims death, he glimpses the divine spark as it leaves, or as the divine embraces the victim, as angels swoop in to take that soul to heaven. It may be the only way that the sick mind of a serial killer can experience the divine.

A drug addict may have become addicted because the high that the drug gave him caused him to experience something divine. It may the only way that person can feel what God's love feels like, while he's under the influence. Sobriety is the perceived separation from God.

I rejoice that you are a better person, I would like to be one, too.

Charles, with every breath you take, you're becoming. I'm sure, because of your resolve, that you're becoming better.