Jesus names as evil those who think his Father would break heavenly law and have him sacrificed.

Murgatroid
What I find totally bizarre, is that the OP appears to have made a full time career out of slandering God.

]

This is a bald faces lie.

Show anywhere where I have slandered your genocidal son murdering prick.

I don't need to lie to nail that bastard to the cross he belongs on for all his murders.
If you are stupid enough to believe the myth that is.

Get a quote of be seen as a liar.

Regards
DL

Glass
I've always thought that the "ransom" argument was absurd, for reasons that you've stated.

God himself would have created the need for this ransom and then sacrificed his own son, whom he must have dearly loved just as he loves all of his creations.

Its a strange circular argument and suggests that God creates suffering so that he can create convoluted solutions to suffering which in turn cause more suffering and confusion and allow unprecedented numbers of souls to be lost in the process.

A sound mind, How refreshing.

To add icing to the cake. He decided to do it even before creating the potential for sin.

Is that sick or what?

And Christians love the prick. Insanity.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Regards
DL

TruthLover557

Glass
I've always thought that the "ransom" argument was absurd, for reasons that you've stated.

God himself would have created the need for this ransom and then sacrificed his own son, whom he must have dearly loved just as he loves all of his creations.

Its a strange circular argument and suggests that God creates suffering so that he can create convoluted solutions to suffering which in turn cause more suffering and confusion and allow unprecedented numbers of souls to be lost in the process.

I've always thought human statements about what God himself would have done were absurd.

Not near as absurd as the churches telling us how unfathomable God is and then filling your mind with immoral ideas that they say are moral about a God they admit they cannot fathom.

And people like you swallow that B S.

You and your ilk are absurd not those know know better.

Regards
DL

OccamsRazor04

Glass
I've always thought that the "ransom" argument was absurd, for reasons that you've stated.

God himself would have created the need for this ransom and then sacrificed his own son, whom he must have dearly loved just as he loves all of his creations.

Its a strange circular argument and suggests that God creates suffering so that he can create convoluted solutions to suffering which in turn cause more suffering and confusion and allow unprecedented numbers of souls to be lost in the process.

God did not create the need for this. Mankind did when they sinned. I am having difficulty figuring out what convoluted thinking would lead yuo to say what you said.

God gave Satan the power to deceive the whole world. He then put Satan exactly where Eve would be knowing that she had no defence against the great power God had given Satan.

He set her up beyond any doubt. Only a fool would not be able to see that.

Regards
DL

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Glass

 

God never made suffering His policy. Adam chose sin over fellowship. His suffering was self inflicted. The same goes for us. Each sin we commit is an expression of our own free will at our own expense. Much of our suffering is self inflicted. Even when we target others with malevolence, what goes around comes around.

Christ suffered the penalty of Adam's original poor choice(s) (and the rest of humanities poor choices) by His own free will. Jesus could have declined to go to the cross, and He was offered a way out multiple times. The Father never made Him do it, He did it out of love for His own creation.

False on so many fronts.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

JDmOKI
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I'm totally confused.... human sacrifice? When did Christians start sacrificing the oldest family member? I think you need to do more research.

or is this a troll thread. I'm just confused

Read a bit. It will all become clear.

Regards
DL

WarminIndy
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Your whole argument is a strawman. Well, it's more like a scarecrow, which is a strawman, except more scarey. I had so much trouble trying to decipher your argument, it's like you laid straw everywhere.

What law are you talking about? That's a strawman position because no such law exists in Christendom, or even in humanity. The law of the sea? That's a recent idea when women and children began riding in ships, before that it was only men. But that is not a law, it's a moral preclusion. If you call it a law, then it's a law "every man for himself" and "the captain goes down with the ship". Well, that would be contradictory laws. You can't have every man for himself but the captain goes down with the ship. The captain is a man.

In a perfect world then fathers should die before their children, but this isn't a perfect world. As above so below? You mean "as it is heaven, let it be done on earth"? But we also believe that whatever we bind on earth is bound in heaven, and what is loosed in heaven is loosed on earth.

God bound Satan in heaven, but Satan was loosed on earth. The principle here is what God says at the beginning to Cain...sin lies at your door desiring to have power over you and will if you let it. But Cain didn't bind sin, instead sin ruled over him. But there is only one way to bind Satan on earth, that was the law of God from heaven, in the name of Jesus that we say, binds Satan and sin. The name of Jesus is so powerful, that you are bound by your emotions to not only keep proclaiming, but cannot escape from.

Whatever you lend your members to, has rule over you. That's the real law.

You are all over the place. Read the few posts just above and decide what you understand and what issue you want me to speak to.

Look especially at what I say of God putting Satan in Eden as God sets her up for the fall.

Regards
DL

OccamsRazor04
OP posted drivel then left the post. Should really be banned.

You are acting like a spoiled child. Grow up or put you soother back in. Just quite whining child.

Regards
DL

BELIEVERpriest
Op is a propagandist. Nothing more.

No. French.

Regards
DL

Glass
[.

What can I say. Wow. Well done.

You cleaned the floor with those guys.
They wont know it as theists are wearing blinders all the time but as my Italian friend tells me, you don'ta hava to taka any #a from noabody.

Regards
DL

windword

OccamsRazor04

Greatest I am
The law in heaven is that the oldest dies first if there is to be a death. That is the only proper law for Gods, --- if they could die that is.

What verse are you looking at here?

How about this one?

Joshua 24:2
And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Jesus names as evil those who think his Father would break heavenly law and have him sacrificed.

The law in heaven is that the oldest dies first if there is to be a death. That is the only proper law for Gods, --- if they could die that is.

The quote you gave does not address this at all, in the slightest.

Glass
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

I'm going to reply to both of you in this post since you both have the same position.

God did not create the need for this. Mankind did when they sinned. I am having difficulty figuring out what convoluted thinking would lead yuo to say what you said.

As written in Genesis 2, God created Adam from the material of the earth (referred to as clay) and breathed his spirit into him, giving him life and sentience. God places him in the garden and creates Eve afterwards based on Adam's genetic material (gathered from his rib).

Presumably, both Adam and Eve have the same holy spirit in them as God. Both of them are created in God's own image, which I take to mean that they have the same sort of mind/consciousness. The difference between them and God is that their minds are blank slates, limited in their perspective, while God is already all-knowing. Thus they have a sort of naive innocence, not knowing good and evil.

Your presuming is where you get in trouble. Mankind does not have the same mind as God, this is evident in the fact that God says Man would die from seeing His "face". The mind of man is not the mind of God, our mind can not comprehend Him. So you are already way off Biblically.

God then warns them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, tells them that if they do they will surely die. Then he leaves them, and the serpent comes along and tells Eve that she will not die if she eats the fruit but would become "like God". This is where I have an issue.

First, God must have created both the serpent and the tree and placed them in the garden with Adam and Eve. Since God is all-knowing and wise, he must have known that the temptation would occur.

So if I know my girlfriend will cheat on me if she is tempted her cheating is my fault, because I knew it would occur? God did know it would occur, that is where freewill comes into place. We had the free will to follow God, or to sin. God knew our choice, but allowed us to make it.

Second, God created Adam and Eve and withheld the Knowledge of Good and Evil from them, thus they could not have known that the serpent was trying to deceive them. "Lie vs Truth", "Good vs. Evil", they don't know about these things in their naive innocence. Thus the temptation was inevitable.

False. You are making stuff up now. The Serpent claimed God lied, so they understood the term. They had to choose who they thought was lying. Eve sided with the Serpent.

The concept of sin is tied to Knowledge of Good and Evil, knowledge which, at the time, only God would have possessed. Rather than making an attempt to safeguard his creations from this knowledge, it seems that he deliberately allowed it to be revealed to them.

There can be no freewill without choices. If God only allowed for one choice to be made by them, then there is no free will. They clearly understood they were disobeying God, and understood it was something they should not do. This is why they did not both immediately take the fruit, Adam hesitated. If their innocence was in the form you describe, Adam would have not hesitated.

If you follow my logic, then Adam's choice could not have been avoided given his lack of knowledge. When Adam ate, he ate without question, naively trusting Eve when she brought him the fruit, just as Eve naively trusted the serpent. It's clear to me that without preexisting Knowledge of Good and Evil, they could not have suspected the serpent of evil motives nor doubted his claims.

No, it's clear you have not read the Bible as Adam did not choose to eat the fruit, only Eve did. Adam was coaxed by Eve, not the Serpent. Adam was with Eve the whole time, he was not convinced by the Serpent. That destroys your entire theory.

Now the rest of us have sin thrust upon us by Adam and Eve's mistakes. We can hardly choose not to sin since many sins are built into our biology (anger and lust for example)

Again this is false from a Biblical perspective. The Bible makes it clear every sin is a choice, and God will present a way out. No one will live an entire life without submitting to sin though.

1Cr 10:13
No temptation[fn] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[fn] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[fn] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

The supposed solution to sin is provided in the form of the sacrifice of God's son, Jesus, or so the church would have you believe. In fact, the solution to sin that Jesus proposed was to have faith in him so as to follow his teachings.

The church has twisted the words to have you believe that faith in his sacrifice and resurrection is the key to liberation from sin, shown to be false as many of the most faithful in this regard continue to sin with impunity.

Explain this then.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

We all still suffer the penalty of that "choice". There is no ultimate solution to sin as long as we live in this universe with free will. All we can do, as Jesus taught, is try to sin as little as possible and have remorse for it when we do. I've seen too many believers who take Jesus' teachings as a free pass to do what they will even if it does harm, justifying their evils as "God's will". It makes me think that evil is part of God's will, since he allowed it to fester in the first place.

Has nothing to do with the topic.

Greatest I am
It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

Knowing what would happen and preparing for it is not the same as it being what He wanted. Not a hard concept to grasp, even humans plan for things they don't want to happen, but think might.

Greatest I am

JDmOKI
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I'm totally confused.... human sacrifice? When did Christians start sacrificing the oldest family member? I think you need to do more research.

or is this a troll thread. I'm just confused

Read a bit. It will all become clear.

Regards
DL

So in other words you wont back up your statement?

Jesus names as evil those who think his Father would break heavenly law and have him sacrificed.

The law in heaven is that the oldest dies first if there is to be a death. That is the only proper law for Gods, --- if they could die that is.

You sound stupid and you know it. You refuse to back it up because you can't.

Greatest I am

TruthLover557
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Seems the only god you know is yourself.

Yes. Exactly how Jesus says it is to work.

Read the Gospel of Thomas.

Regards
DL

No, you read the gospel of Thomas. I read the Bible.

I will no longer read anything by you.

Occam

“Mankind does not have the same mind as God, this is evident in the fact that God says Man would die from seeing His "face". The mind of man is not the mind of God, our mind cannot comprehend Him.”

It is true that it is hard to comprehend the mind of such a vile psychotic God but your view is wrong according to God’s own words. We need then put aside you wild and inaccurate speculation. In Eden God himself says that A & E became as Gods in the knowing of good and evil. That obviously means that we think as he does. He tells us himself so do not replace those words with lies.

----------------------

“So if I know my girlfriend will cheat on me if she is tempted her cheating is my fault, because I knew it would occur? God did know it would occur, that is where freewill comes into place. We had the free will to follow God, or to sin. God knew our choice, but allowed us to make it.”

Let’s make the scenario of your girlfriend exact shall we.

As her boyfriend, would you put her in a room full of Chip and Dale and expect her not to look?

That is what God did plus he gave the dancers the power to deceive the whole world so he can and does deceive her into thinking she is not looking or doing a good thing.

Try again with an exact scenario and your God looks like the prix that he is.

-------------------

“God did know it would occur”.

Correct and he also knew that he would have his son needlessly murdered because he wanted A & E to fall so that he could murder them by neglect and forcibly keep them from the tree of life.

----------------------------

“that is where freewill comes into place. We had the free will to follow God, or to sin. God knew our choice, but allowed us to make it.”

If we only have two choices then that is not free will is it. That is a forced choice. Me or him, says God. Choose freely but not quite free. Only two options are given to you out of three.

Only a fool would call that free will. And since God murdered them when they did their will and not his, this demonstrates that he did not sallow them free will.

Read this again for the first time and tell us you can survive and evilve without competing and doing evil to the loser of that competition. You do not have the wit.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.


Evolutionary theology.

www.youtube.com...

----------------------------------

“False. You are making stuff up now. The Serpent claimed God lied, so they understood the term. They had to choose who they thought was lying. Eve sided with the Serpent.”

“The Serpent claimed God lied,”

This is you lying and making stuff up. Get the non-existent quote.

You eve understood the term. That is impossible. Lying is usually seen as evil. Eve knew nothing of evil at that point as she had not eaten of it.

If Eve sided with the Serpent it is likely because God lied by omission as he did not tell her of all the consequences of the act. The Serpent had to truthfully fill her in. The only liar in Eden was your vile lying by omission God.

-----------------------------------

“If God only allowed for one choice to be made by them, then there is no free will.”

If God only allows two choices as you say he does, then there is no free will.

-------------------------------

“They clearly understood they were disobeying God, and understood it was something they should not do.”

I think it rather hypocritical for you to use the phrase , ” and understood it was something they should not do”,
---- which means bad or evil, to slink away from saying they knew it was evil because you know that they did not know anything of evil.

Nice dishonest ploy friend. Repent.

-------------------------------

“Knowing what would happen and preparing for it is not the same as it being what He wanted.”

Hogwash.
Is God’s will not supreme and is he not omnipotent and can make whatever he logically wants happen?
You limit your limitless God at a rather convenient time.

Regards
DL

TruthLover557

Greatest I am

TruthLover557
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Seems the only god you know is yourself.

Yes. Exactly how Jesus says it is to work.

Read the Gospel of Thomas.

Regards
DL

No, you read the gospel of Thomas. I read the Bible.

I will no longer read anything by you.

Not surprising. As you have shown, you lack the wit to understand it.

Go hide in your book of fairy tales child. You are nice and safe there with your imaginary sugar daddy and scapegoat Jesus.

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty and here you are preaching for Satan. Shame on you.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning.

He would know that barbaric human sacrifice is immoral.

You do too. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

When you die, Satan will ask you; How was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

When you say yes, you become his.

Regards
DL

Glass
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

I'm going to reply to both of you in this post since you both have the same position.

God did not create the need for this. Mankind did when they sinned. I am having difficulty figuring out what convoluted thinking would lead yuo to say what you said.

As written in Genesis 2, God created Adam from the material of the earth (referred to as clay) and breathed his spirit into him, giving him life and sentience. God places him in the garden and creates Eve afterwards based on Adam's genetic material (gathered from his rib).

Presumably, both Adam and Eve have the same holy spirit in them as God. Both of them are created in God's own image, which I take to mean that they have the same sort of mind/consciousness. The difference between them and God is that their minds are blank slates, limited in their perspective, while God is already all-knowing. Thus they have a sort of naive innocence, not knowing good and evil.

God then warns them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, tells them that if they do they will surely die. Then he leaves them, and the serpent comes along and tells Eve that she will not die if she eats the fruit but would become "like God". This is where I have an issue.

First, God must have created both the serpent and the tree and placed them in the garden with Adam and Eve. Since God is all-knowing and wise, he must have known that the temptation would occur.

Second, God created Adam and Eve and withheld the Knowledge of Good and Evil from them, thus they could not have known that the serpent was trying to deceive them. "Lie vs Truth", "Good vs. Evil", they don't know about these things in their naive innocence. Thus the temptation was inevitable.

The concept of sin is tied to Knowledge of Good and Evil, knowledge which, at the time, only God would have possessed. Rather than making an attempt to safeguard his creations from this knowledge, it seems that he deliberately allowed it to be revealed to them.

God never made suffering His policy. Adam chose sin over fellowship. His suffering was self inflicted. The same goes for us. Each sin we commit is an expression of our own free will at our own expense. Much of our suffering is self inflicted. Even when we target others with malevolence, what goes around comes around.

If you follow my logic, then Adam's choice could not have been avoided given his lack of knowledge. When Adam ate, he ate without question, naively trusting Eve when she brought him the fruit, just as Eve naively trusted the serpent. It's clear to me that without preexisting Knowledge of Good and Evil, they could not have suspected the serpent of evil motives nor doubted his claims.

Now the rest of us have sin thrust upon us by Adam and Eve's mistakes. We can hardly choose not to sin since many sins are built into our biology (anger and lust for example)

The supposed solution to sin is provided in the form of the sacrifice of God's son, Jesus, or so the church would have you believe. In fact, the solution to sin that Jesus proposed was to have faith in him so as to follow his teachings.

The church has twisted the words to have you believe that faith in his sacrifice and resurrection is the key to liberation from sin, shown to be false as many of the most faithful in this regard continue to sin with impunity.

Christ suffered the penalty of Adam's original poor choice(s) (and the rest of humanities poor choices) by His own free will. Jesus could have declined to go to the cross, and He was offered a way out multiple times. The Father never made Him do it, He did it out of love for His own creation.

We all still suffer the penalty of that "choice". There is no ultimate solution to sin as long as we live in this universe with free will. All we can do, as Jesus taught, is try to sin as little as possible and have remorse for it when we do. I've seen too many believers who take Jesus' teachings as a free pass to do what they will even if it does harm, justifying their evils as "God's will". It makes me think that evil is part of God's will, since he allowed it to fester in the first place.

God created us with free will. It would be wrong to create man without an "opt-out of the garden" option. That option was the tree of good and evil. Too eat or not to eat.

God didnt give us the capacity for this knowledge, that is why Adam and Eve are dead now. So, the serpent lied, not God. By choosing the knowldge of good and evil, Adam and Eve chose to die and leave the garden.

If you tell a kid not to put a fork in a light socket, do you have to teach him the electro-magnetic theory to make him understand that will kill him? Or should you just shut off your power for his sake.

If you hate your kids as God hated A & E, you put someone there to urge your child to electrocute himself.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
If you hate your kids as God hated A & E, you put someone there to urge your child to electrocute himself.

Regards
DL

Man is not a product of his environment. Temptation-enviroment is a factor. Adam and Eve made their choices. God gave them specific instructions. To say their poor choices are some how God's fault is to curtail personal responsibility.

If you believe your environment made you who you are, the you are a mindless slave. Your decisions are an illusion of free will and you are by no means on the path to enlightenment.